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ok so Yuki can beat the driver that came in and impressed in a williams AND has multiple Drivers titles under his belt when he raced in F1.
and then Yuki beat the driver that everyone thinks is great just because he has a massive smile and talks like a drunk person

but everyone Agrees Yuki is not good because he was beaten by Gasly and Max beat Gasly.

so if De Fries is bad
then Riccardo is bad.

or Yuki is good and Ricardo is also good and will eventually be even when Danny gets used to the car set up.
we wont even get into what that means about Gasly.


Personally I think Ricardo is not good, he just looked good in a good car, Yuki is average Gasly is good.
Ricardo should go race in Indi Car for a season so he could win the indi 500 and then move to WEC so he can win LeMas and have a tripple crown. I want Alonso to do the same thing....
 
What's the dangerous precedent?
Don't brake more than 100m earlier than you ever have before, leading to you downshifting and then accelerating before braking again for the same corner, when there is a car 0.5s behind you who would not expect the erratic driving?
It's in the rules already.
Edit: I may be coming across as combative, I'm not meaning to. Genuinely curious about your thoughts regarding this.

this explains it better than I could: https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-brake-test-accusations-unfair

"... The fact is that Russell went off and crashed, based on what the car in front of him was doing – this having been verified as Alonso lifting off early, rather than being a brake test in the true sense of those words.

It meant that Alonso’s driving could be viewed as “erratic” or in a manner “potentially dangerous”, which is covered under Article 33.4 of the Sporting Regulations.

This meant that, regardless of Russell’s crash, the stewards would have had the grounds to examine Alonso’s driving if they’d felt like it. The stewards also said that there was insufficient information to be able to say whether or not Alonso’s driving was designed to cause Russell problems or whether he was simply trying to get a better exit.

The issue this wording raises is whether or not it should be relevant. After all, isn’t the art of defensive driving down to causing your rival “problems” and ensuring they can’t do what they want to do?

Alonso didn’t slam on the brakes, didn’t change direction without warning, and performed an action – however scruffily in execution – that, unlikely intentionally, caused Russell a problem that he couldn’t overcome.

The stewards admitted Alonso had the right to try a different approach, and was not responsible for the dirty air that destabilised Russell. But it was in the nature of his “erratic” driving that allowed the stewards the grounds to punish Alonso and, with Alonso’s account of his approach to Turn 6 confirming an unusual approach, it meant the stewards could rule that he had driven in an erratic or “potentially dangerous” manner – thus the penalty.

Essentially, Alonso has been caught out by a rule that is open to interpretation and is there to catch egregious examples of misbehaviour from drivers. The Spaniard himself took to social media after being given the penalty that dropped him to eighth place (and three penalty points applied to his super licence) and explained the situation from his perspective.

“A bit surprised by a penalty at the end of the race regarding how we should approach the corners or how we should drive the race cars,” he said.

“At no point do we want to do anything wrong at these speeds. I believe that without gravel on that corner, on any other corner in the world, we will never be even investigated.

“In F1, with over 20 years of experience, with epic duels like Imola 2005/2006/ Brazil 2023, changing racing lines, sacrificing entry speed to have good exits from corners is part of the art of motorsport.

“We never drive at 100 percent every race lap and every corner – we save fuel, tyres, brakes, so being responsible for not making every lap the same is a bit surprising.”

It’s notable that Alonso’s incident warranted a harsher response from the F1 stewards than what the F3 stewards applied to Nikola Tsolov earlier in the weekend.

The F3 racer was aggrieved by being impeded by Ireland’s Alex Dunne during practice, and promptly clattered into his rival by deliberately steering towards him and sending Dunne into the wall – the MP Motorsport car picking up extensive damage in the crash.

Tsolov was given a three-place grid drop but the stewards, astonishingly, didn’t treat the incident within the context of it being a deliberate act and, even more astonishingly, pointed to Dunne as being the instigator of Tsolov choosing to use his car as a weapon.

In contrast, Alonso chose to use a defensive tactic (albeit clumsily) by simply slowing down approaching a corner in order to block his rival, and found the book being thrown at him when his rival was caught out by it (and admitted to being caught out by it). Unlike Tsolov, Alonso can hardly be said to have used his car as a weapon, merely a hindrance.

Had the telemetry revealed that Alonso hitting the brakes had been the primary reason for his car slowing down, or if he had been only a tenth or two ahead of Russell, it could be said Alonso deserved his penalty. It would change the complexion of the offence into something far more sinister.

But simply easing off the throttle and then accelerating again, while half a second clear of his rival, shows that Alonso was merely trying to use the dirty air effect to stymie Russell’s momentum – a typical racing tactic that didn’t warrant the penalty he received."
 
Yes Coulthard brake checked Schumacher in the rain to help his own teammate win the championship, yet nothing happened to him.
But we all know for decades who controls F1
 
ok so Yuki can beat the driver that came in and impressed in a williams AND has multiple Drivers titles under his belt when he raced in F1.
and then Yuki beat the driver that everyone thinks is great just because he has a massive smile and talks like a drunk person

but everyone Agrees Yuki is not good because he was beaten by Gasly and Max beat Gasly.

so if De Fries is bad
then Riccardo is bad.

or Yuki is good and Ricardo is also good and will eventually be even when Danny gets used to the car set up.
we wont even get into what that means about Gasly.


Personally I think Ricardo is not good, he just looked good in a good car, Yuki is average Gasly is good.
Ricardo should go race in Indi Car for a season so he could win the indi 500 and then move to WEC so he can win LeMas and have a tripple crown. I want Alonso to do the same thing....
For me, I think the argument which matters is that Ricciardo hasn't performed and there's a driver who has outperformed him who arguably deserves that seat which would contribute to a better outcome for the team's ranking.

It's one thing being off the pace but still having a team mate winning the championship and the team winning the drivers championship - it's a another being 8th or 9th when you could be best of the rest.

Ricciardo instead of Perez would remove the pressure but he's performed so badly now that putting him in that seat is then an insult to Yuki and Liam.
 
this explains it better than I could: https://www.planetf1.com/news/fernando-alonso-brake-test-accusations-unfair

"... The fact is that Russell went off and crashed, based on what the car in front of him was doing – this having been verified as Alonso lifting off early, rather than being a brake test in the true sense of those words.

It meant that Alonso’s driving could be viewed as “erratic” or in a manner “potentially dangerous”, which is covered under Article 33.4 of the Sporting Regulations.

This meant that, regardless of Russell’s crash, the stewards would have had the grounds to examine Alonso’s driving if they’d felt like it. The stewards also said that there was insufficient information to be able to say whether or not Alonso’s driving was designed to cause Russell problems or whether he was simply trying to get a better exit.

The issue this wording raises is whether or not it should be relevant. After all, isn’t the art of defensive driving down to causing your rival “problems” and ensuring they can’t do what they want to do?

Alonso didn’t slam on the brakes, didn’t change direction without warning, and performed an action – however scruffily in execution – that, unlikely intentionally, caused Russell a problem that he couldn’t overcome.

The stewards admitted Alonso had the right to try a different approach, and was not responsible for the dirty air that destabilised Russell. But it was in the nature of his “erratic” driving that allowed the stewards the grounds to punish Alonso and, with Alonso’s account of his approach to Turn 6 confirming an unusual approach, it meant the stewards could rule that he had driven in an erratic or “potentially dangerous” manner – thus the penalty.

Essentially, Alonso has been caught out by a rule that is open to interpretation and is there to catch egregious examples of misbehaviour from drivers. The Spaniard himself took to social media after being given the penalty that dropped him to eighth place (and three penalty points applied to his super licence) and explained the situation from his perspective.

“A bit surprised by a penalty at the end of the race regarding how we should approach the corners or how we should drive the race cars,” he said.

“At no point do we want to do anything wrong at these speeds. I believe that without gravel on that corner, on any other corner in the world, we will never be even investigated.

“In F1, with over 20 years of experience, with epic duels like Imola 2005/2006/ Brazil 2023, changing racing lines, sacrificing entry speed to have good exits from corners is part of the art of motorsport.

“We never drive at 100 percent every race lap and every corner – we save fuel, tyres, brakes, so being responsible for not making every lap the same is a bit surprising.”

It’s notable that Alonso’s incident warranted a harsher response from the F1 stewards than what the F3 stewards applied to Nikola Tsolov earlier in the weekend.

The F3 racer was aggrieved by being impeded by Ireland’s Alex Dunne during practice, and promptly clattered into his rival by deliberately steering towards him and sending Dunne into the wall – the MP Motorsport car picking up extensive damage in the crash.

Tsolov was given a three-place grid drop but the stewards, astonishingly, didn’t treat the incident within the context of it being a deliberate act and, even more astonishingly, pointed to Dunne as being the instigator of Tsolov choosing to use his car as a weapon.

In contrast, Alonso chose to use a defensive tactic (albeit clumsily) by simply slowing down approaching a corner in order to block his rival, and found the book being thrown at him when his rival was caught out by it (and admitted to being caught out by it). Unlike Tsolov, Alonso can hardly be said to have used his car as a weapon, merely a hindrance.

Had the telemetry revealed that Alonso hitting the brakes had been the primary reason for his car slowing down, or if he had been only a tenth or two ahead of Russell, it could be said Alonso deserved his penalty. It would change the complexion of the offence into something far more sinister.

But simply easing off the throttle and then accelerating again, while half a second clear of his rival, shows that Alonso was merely trying to use the dirty air effect to stymie Russell’s momentum – a typical racing tactic that didn’t warrant the penalty he received."
Interesting take. It reads like it was written by an Alonso fan.

I agree with the Tsolov incident, that was nuts and the penalty certainly wasn't sufficient.
 
Interesting take. It reads like it was written by an Alonso fan.
I agree with the Tsolov incident, that was nuts and the penalty certainly wasn't sufficient.

Thing is, one of the basic principles (if not the most important one) of defensive driving is that the following car/driver *must* anticipate the leading car/driver and drive accordingly. This is why when you rear-end someone, it's (almost) always your fault, not the leading car's.

We all know Alonso defends like mad, so Russell should have kept his wits about him. He has shown a couple of times now that he makes mistakes when following, rookie stuff really.
 
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Thing is, one of the basic principles (if not the most important one) of defensive driving is that the following car/driver *must* anticipate the leading car/driver and drive accordingly. This is why when you rear-end someone, it's (almost) always your fault, not the leading car's.

The following car *always* has to anticipate what the leading car will do, and we all know Alonso defends like mad, so Russell should have kept his wits about him. He has shown a couple of times now that he makes mistakes when following, rookie stuff really.
True. However, the other part of this is that a driver must not drive in an erratic or unpredictable manner.

Specifically, "At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed to be potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person."

Lifting 100m early and braking, dropping a gear, then accelerating toward the same corner and then braking for it again would be deemed erratic by any standard. That's not how you drive a race car and perfectly fits the definition of erratic.

That's not to say there was ill-intent, just that the driving was erratic and he was penalized for it.
 
True. However, the other part of this is that a driver must not drive in an erratic or unpredictable manner.

Specifically, "At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed to be potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person."

Lifting 100m early and braking, dropping a gear, then accelerating toward the same corner and then braking for it again would be deemed erratic by any standard. That's not how you drive a race car and perfectly fits the definition of erratic.

That's not to say there was ill-intent, just that the driving was erratic and he was penalized for it.
I disagree, we've seen much better examples of erratic driving. The moment you require telemetry data to determine as such rather than tens of cameras and onboards of the incident it is getting a little ridiculous. It means now if a driver moves to block an attacker it's subject to review based on what was considered a "normal" entry and exit. It's really really odd.
 
100% was erratic driving.

if there was no need for an upshift again it would not be erratic.

he started 50m early for it to be defensive driving. he got it wrong, like he said to the stewards.

if he was innocent there would have been an appeal. there was no appeal by AM.
Alonso tried something it failed and it was erratic driving.

did that cause GR to crash? irrelevant question as that is not what he is panelized for. but my opinion is yes it forced GR to brake at a point he was not ready for, leading to the crash looking the same as a F3 Driver loosing it around the same corner for breaking harder than needed at the same spot.
 
I disagree, we've seen much better examples of erratic driving. The moment you require telemetry data to determine as such rather than tens of cameras and onboards of the incident it is getting a little ridiculous. It means now if a driver moves to block an attacker it's subject to review based on what was considered a "normal" entry and exit. It's really really odd.
This incident has nothing to do with other examples of erratic driving though. It is it's own incident and evaluated as such. Look, if Russell never crashed this would never have been investigated, that's for sure. But he did, so there's a reason to look into it. Upon looking into it, it's evident from the telemetry that he was playing games and driving erratically. You can't look at the telemetry and draw a different conclusion. He himself even admitted as much. The telemetry shows that on every single other lap he did it one way and on this lap he did it completely differently which resulted in a much higher closing speed for the car behind. It's in the data.
 
This incident has nothing to do with other examples of erratic driving though. It is it's own incident and evaluated as such. Look, if Russell never crashed this would never have been investigated, that's for sure. But he did, so there's a reason to look into it. Upon looking into it, it's evident from the telemetry that he was playing games and driving erratically. You can't look at the telemetry and draw a different conclusion. He himself even admitted as much. The telemetry shows that on every single other lap he did it one way and on this lap he did it completely differently which resulted in a much higher closing speed for the car behind. It's in the data.
Are you reading what you're arguing? If you defend your line by treating a corner differently than all other times you drove it because you weren't under pressure and then your challenger (who is attacking you for position) crashes then your exception in navigating that corner is reason enough to be called erratic? Come now.
 
OMG what stupid arguments. This is part of the art of racing.
Did the Minister's of defense( Bottas and Perez) ever got penalized for braking to early and going slow in corners to hold people up?
Remember Verstappen and Leclerc braking early for DRS zones when fighting each other? Many other have done the same.
But hey now that some British driver was asleep and hit the wall, we give penalties.
 
Are you reading what you're arguing? If you defend your line by treating a corner differently than all other times you drove it because you weren't under pressure and then your challenger (who is attacking you for position) crashes then your exception in navigating that corner is reason enough to be called erratic? Come now.
No.

He has every right to defend his line and it is expected there will be different lines taken, late breaking, etc.

What is not expected is braking 100m earlier than usual, overdoing it and then accelerating to the corner again and then braking for that corner again. That's erratic. It makes no sense to drive that way and cannot be predicted by the driver behind because it makes no sense. So it's erratic. Literally just look up the definition of erratic.
 
dude he got the defensive driving wrong. he admitted it. it caused the crash lead to an investigation was found guilty and he did not legally contest it.

its pretty cut and dry.
 
No.

He has every right to defend his line and it is expected there will be different lines taken, late breaking, etc.

What is not expected is braking 100m earlier than usual, overdoing it and then accelerating to the corner again and then braking for that corner again. That's erratic. It makes no sense to drive that way and cannot be predicted by the driver behind because it makes no sense. So it's erratic. Literally just look up the definition of erratic.
He slowed 100m earlier than he normally would've to defend the corner with a 10km/hr reduction is not erratic in my opinion. The precedent here is that when a driver slows more than "what's needed" defending a corner it's now a penalty. That's daft.
 
dude he got the defensive driving wrong. he admitted it. it caused the crash lead to an investigation was found guilty and he did not legally contest it.

its pretty cut and dry.

Yeah fine margins and one needs to appreciate these types of rules and monitoring. At 300km's an hour little things like that can be fatal.
 
He slowed 100m earlier than he normally would've to defend the corner with a 10km/hr reduction is not erratic in my opinion. The precedent here is that when a driver slows more than "what's needed" defending a corner it's now a penalty. That's daft.
Well, we can agree to disagree. A driver braking in a section that is usually flat out is erratic and leads to exactly what we saw, much faster closing speeds than usual and the driver behind having to make an urgent adjustment to avoid contact.
 
Well, we can agree to disagree. A driver braking in a section that is usually flat out is erratic and leads to exactly what we saw, much faster closing speeds than usual and the driver behind having to make an urgent adjustment to avoid contact.
Based on the lift speed he reached that corner ~0.13s slower than the previous laps.
 
Based on the lift speed he reached that corner ~0.13s slower than the previous laps.
You're saying he lifted, braked, geared down, accelerated and braked again and lost 0.13s?

Come on man.
 
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