Farm Attacks

[supersunbird]

Nobody said anything about genocide, so I'm not quite sure why you're bringing it up.

There are, literally, magnitudes more people in a single large township than there are farmers in the entire country.
Do you not see the problem here?
Comparing the two is disingenuous.



I'm sorry, I no longer buy this excuse.
I mentioned it to R13, so I'll recap in short order:
No one in government is talking about it -specifically the "leader" of the country and the anc- nevermind doing anything about it.
Cyril flat out denied it to the world.

A small group of people are, literally, being tortured and murdered with very little stolen...and you don't see a problem here..?

So what do you call the bolded, since it's not genocide related apparently, since you have a problem with me bringing it up. Since there is mos government involvement with jammers or such or do you dismiss those claims?

And on the first section, I am talking likelihood of being victim of murder and why, not raw numbers and percentages of 100 000s or anything, so what are you going on about?

 

[STS]

I agree, the problem gets tainted by a-holes, but it's happening.
Something still needs to be done about it.

Of course, because keeping / saving face is more important than people being tortured and murdered at an alarmingly high rate.

No idea who this guy is, but the first part of the video has the interview in question.

Afriforum has some stats. I usually hear or read about it in the news. Sometimes nothing is taken. Sometimes a cellphone, sometimes some weapons, sometimes a few thousand rand.
Like I said, very little -nothing that warrants hours and hours of torture ending in death.
(How does Afriforum get their stats? From the police and from going to every single farm murder scene to help any survivors -if there are any- with trauma counseling. First hand experience.)

What inconsistencies and lies and from who?
Don't list some obscure racist group that no one's ever heard of. Those types never get any airtime -and if they do, definitely not enough to be remembered or known -as proven by
the fact that I can't name any off the top of my head.

Did I say anywhere that one murder is more important than any other murder?
I don't know how else to say this anymore, so I'll try one last time:

I'm asking why this is still being ignored, nay, denied by the president of this country.
Why does he not publicly condemn it?

Why doesn't he bring back something like the commando's?
It's very doable. All it takes is a stroke of his pen and it's done.
Doing something about township murder issues is waaay more complicated.

And also BTW, as I mentioned to SS, this argument of all the black people in townships vs a profession is absolutely disingenuous.
Why don't we compare apples with apples?
Farmers vs (insert your profession of choice here)

I bet you if ambulance drivers (or any other profession for that matter) were being murdered at the rate that farmers are, something would've been done ages ago.
(Yeah, I know, ambulance drivers have been attacked recently...but not tortured and murdered at the rate that farmers are.)
Look at what a big deal it is when a cop is killed on the job, but when it comes to farmers...mum's pretty much the word.

I am saying the Aholes are the ones tainting it, people should be distancing themselves from the white supremacists(although I am sure it is hard when anybody is heading your cries for help, you'll take any help that you can get). Almost all international attention of farm killings is synonymous with genocide and the only local hope people have is being ridiculed and pushed further away, so all i want to understand what can be done about it if this is the approach people are taking?

Afriforum themselves have said that many farm attacks are not racially motivated:

'More black farm workers are killed than white farm workers' - Johan Burger

Following a spate of farm murders in the Cape, the policing expert says there aren't enough stats available on farm killings.

www.702.co.za

It is true that, if you look at just farmers, it is still mostly white farmers who get attacked. But that does not mean that black farmers and black workers are not killed.

Johan Burger, Independent Policing Expert
In fact, far more black workers are killed on farms during these attacks, by people coming from outside of those farms than white workers. In some years, there are no white workers killed.

Johan Burger, Independent Policing Expert

People are also grossly taking Ramphosa's words out of context in the interview too, in Trumps's tweet he SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS "large scale killings of farmers". In THE CONTEXT of that tweet, Ramphosa said there were no farm killings and land seizures(and of how many farm murders there have been ,how many have ended up in "black" hands?) targeting the farmers. How can he say there are no farm murders when there are literally murders happening everywhere, all the time, out of control?

You are welcome to read into it anyway you want, but I feel like you are hurting the cause over something petty that should be common sense. If you don't believe in an intentional genocide, then we can agree with Ramphosa that nobody is SPECIFICALLY targeting farmers. This does not mean the ANC is not to blame and are not innocent of the farm murders, we are just shifting the focus away from the conspiracy onto fixing the issue now.

The problem is the "farm killing" stats don't just involve white farmers, they include anyone that works on the farm, sometimes third parties that "rent" on the farm and even small holdings, anything that can pump up the numbers to make it look horrific by those with an agenda. As I said, all murder is bad, but comparing the deaths of farmers as a profession to the number of women or children murdered in a year is a fraction of those. We might as well be protesting against ALL killings, and come up with solutions to all the problems than specifically narrowing in on farmers.

I am all for bringing back the commandoes, but it seems like the commandoes is supposedly the solution to one problem and not killings/crime in general. The commandoes are also not without faults themselves as there were news reports that they would torture suspects and be trigger happy. With proper talks veering away from race, blaming the government and trying to seek refugee status in every country possible, I thik having a civil and reasonable talk could solve a lot of issues.

That is if people are willing to give up the overseas white nationalists and the genocide nonsense, and lets not being naive, there is a lot of that. You cannot be aware of farm killings and NOT come across the material

 

[RonSwanson]

I knew they were OFFERED to join the SAPS reservists as well as well as having other offers.

If you knew that, why did you not say so then? Why ask a rhetoric question?
Truth is that some of them took the offer up, and then immediately left the SAPS Reserve because there was "no free transport" to SAPS stations located sometimes more than 60 Km away. This gave impetus tomany urban unemployed reservists who applied in their thousands to "serve" in urban areas, as paid members, something that the urban reservists were never afforded nor even contemplated. Imagine, here are thoroughly incompetent people, being given uniforms, and rank, and weapons that they did not know how to use, and they were being paid? Permanent members, yes, they were dead bodies since 1996, but reservists? They were a blight on the reservist's name and reputation.

This offer was also open to every race of commando, the point is not only the white commandos were disbanded.

You were the one who first mentioned race, asking specifically where the black commandos went to. I don't dispute this fact though, but in fairness to both black and white commandos, it also seemed like a pretty raw deal. Why travel 60kms four times per month to the distant police station to do your duty, and receive orders from an incompetent officer to do a foot patrol for four hours in Cullinan CBD, when you have a wife and children at home sixty kilometres away? Or even further?

I am just saying people with the skills of the commandos had to go somewhere as well, some of them probably became criminals too.

And this I somewhat agree with, mostly military skills, not policing skills, and without the payment that they were used to. Do you want to tell me that the ANC's president and minister of safety and security did not know it either? It proves that this was an orchestrated, conscious and deliberate move to remove any possible form of organised government sanctioned protection that vulnerable farmers had, in pursuit of the ANC's political frogboiling agenda.[/QUOTE]

 

[supersunbird]

I agree, the problem gets tainted by a-holes, but it's happening.
Something still needs to be done about it.


Of course, because keeping / saving face is more important than people being tortured and murdered at an alarmingly high rate.



No idea who this guy is, but the first part of the video has the interview in question.

Afriforum has some stats. I usually hear or read about it in the news. Sometimes nothing is taken. Sometimes a cellphone, sometimes some weapons, sometimes a few thousand rand.
Like I said, very little -nothing that warrants hours and hours of torture ending in death.
(How does Afriforum get their stats? From the police and from going to every single farm murder scene to help any survivors -if there are any- with trauma counseling. First hand experience.)


What inconsistencies and lies and from who?
Don't list some obscure racist group that no one's ever heard of. Those types never get any airtime -and if they do, definitely not enough to be remembered or known -as proven by
the fact that I can't name any off the top of my head.


Did I say anywhere that one murder is more important than any other murder?
I don't know how else to say this anymore, so I'll try one last time:

I'm asking why this is still being ignored, nay, denied by the president of this country.
Why does he not publicly condemn it?

Why doesn't he bring back something like the commando's?
It's very doable. All it takes is a stroke of his pen and it's done.
Doing something about township murder issues is waaay more complicated.

And also BTW, as I mentioned to SS, this argument of all the black people in townships vs a profession is absolutely disingenuous.
Why don't we compare apples with apples?
Farmers vs (insert your profession of choice here)



I bet you if ambulance drivers (or any other profession for that matter) were being murdered at the rate that farmers are, something would've been done ages ago.
(Yeah, I know, ambulance drivers have been attacked recently...but not tortured and murdered at the rate that farmers are.)
Look at what a big deal it is when a cop is killed on the job, but when it comes to farmers...mum's pretty much the word.

What the hell, I never said anything about black people, stop putting words in my mouth. I am comparing risk... farm attack the risk is lower than city, in city, township is lower risk than suburb (said suburb could be black you know). But if you insist, Farmer vs unemployed...

Anyway, go preach to the farmers and help them fortify their residences, I bet most of the attacks happen at residences.

 

[RonSwanson]

I am saying the Aholes are the ones tainting it, people should be distancing themselves from the white supremacists(although I am sure it is hard when anybody is heading your cries for help, you'll take any help that you can get). Almost all international attention of farm killings is synonymous with genocide and the only local hope people have is being ridiculed and pushed further away, so all i want to understand what can be done about it if this is the approach people are taking?

Afriforum themselves have said that many farm attacks are not racially motivated:

'More black farm workers are killed than white farm workers' - Johan Burger

Following a spate of farm murders in the Cape, the policing expert says there aren't enough stats available on farm killings.

www.702.co.za

People are also grossly taking Ramphosa's words out of context in the interview too, in Trumps's tweet he SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS "large scale killings of farmers". In THE CONTEXT of that tweet, Ramphosa said there were no farm killings and land seizures(and of how many farm murders there have been ,how many have ended up in "black" hands?) targeting the farmers. How can he say there are no farm murders when there are literally murders happening everywhere, all the time, out of control?

Nothing about "large scale" here:

 

[STS]

Indeed, where are those stats? Was that not exactly the issue a bit back.

Now here is the funny thing. Stats are powerful. They prove or disprove a problem if collected impartially. I regularly delve into certain stats to prove a problem. Important is also how you define exactly what you're trying to measure. I have some brilliant slides in my presentations comparing stats between the US and EU. The problem comes to mapping those across countries and deinitions. As such the EU did some good work in this regard.

On the other hand, if you don't want to acknowledge a problem, you don't measure it. Oh hum ...

And that was exactly topical also in something I presented on today to role players across the world. Incidentally it's of extreme concern to the rest of the world, also where South Africa causing a problem in their countries.

Our govt can tell you exactly everything about every thing they want to know. I repat: What they want to know about. Probably even your condom size if they could.

What does our stats say about the problem I spoke about? What stats, we don't have a problem.

Nice little game in plausible deniability.

Here is the best source of stats I could find on the issue:

FACTSHEET: Statistics on farm attacks and murders in South Africa

Violent attacks on people living and working on farms in South Africa frequently make local and international headlines. This factsheet breaks down the available statistics and explores its limitations.

africacheck.org

The problem with farm murder rate calculations
Two figures are needed to calculate a crime rate: the number of cases and the population affected.

According to the official definition, victims could include people “residing on, working on or visiting farms and smallholdings”. Experts say that estimating this total population is difficult, if not impossible.

“It may be problematic to use an estimate of all people living on farms depending on what data is used for murders and attacks,” Gareth Newham, head of the crime and justice programme at the Institute for Security Studies, told Africa Check.

“It is likely that many of the figures for farm attacks and murders on farms collected by organised agricultural or the SAPS for that matter, would not contain all the attacks or murders of non-farmers.”

Until an accurate estimate of the number of people “residing on, working on or visiting farms and smallholdings” is released, it will not be possible to calculate a farm murder rate.

Calculating a murder rate for commercial farmers (those registered to pay value-added tax) is also difficult. The latest estimate for this population is from 2007. New estimates are expected to be released within the next year. However, no organisation has released data on the number of commercial farmers murdered in South Africa.

This is from independent sources mentioning the challenges, not the government

 

[STS]

Nothing about "large scale" here:

So in the context of the tweet, when Ramphosa said he did not have an opportunity to discuss this with Trump, what do you think he was referring to?

"Oh yes, plenty of farmers are dying! Just not by the ANC!"

 

[access]

I am saying the Aholes are the ones tainting it, people should be distancing themselves from the white supremacists(although I am sure it is hard when anybody is heading your cries for help, you'll take any help that you can get). Almost all international attention of farm killings is synonymous with genocide and the only local hope people have is being ridiculed and pushed further away, so all i want to understand what can be done about it if this is the approach people are taking?

Afriforum themselves have said that many farm attacks are not racially motivated:

'More black farm workers are killed than white farm workers' - Johan Burger

Following a spate of farm murders in the Cape, the policing expert says there aren't enough stats available on farm killings.

www.702.co.za

People are also grossly taking Ramphosa's words out of context in the interview too, in Trumps's tweet he SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS "large scale killings of farmers". In THE CONTEXT of that tweet, Ramphosa said there were no farm killings and land seizures(and of how many farm murders there have been ,how many have ended up in "black" hands?) targeting the farmers. How can he say there are no farm murders when there are literally murders happening everywhere, all the time, out of control?

You are welcome to read into it anyway you want, but I feel like you are hurting the cause over something petty that should be common sense. If you don't believe in an intentional genocide, then we can agree with Ramphosa that nobody is SPECIFICALLY targeting farmers. This does not mean the ANC is not to blame and are not innocent of the farm murders, we are just shifting the focus away from the conspiracy onto fixing the issue now.

The problem is the "farm killing" stats don't just involve white farmers, they include anyone that works on the farm, sometimes third parties that "rent" on the farm and even small holdings, anything that can pump up the numbers to make it look horrific by those with an agenda. As I said, all murder is bad, but comparing the deaths of farmers as a profession to the number of women or children murdered in a year is a fraction of those. We might as well be protesting against ALL killings, and come up with solutions to all the problems than specifically narrowing in on farmers.

I am all for bringing back the commandoes, but it seems like the commandoes is supposedly the solution to one problem and not killings/crime in general. The commandoes are also not without faults themselves as there were news reports that they would torture suspects and be trigger happy. With proper talks veering away from race, blaming the government and trying to seek refugee status in every country possible, I thik having a civil and reasonable talk could solve a lot of issues.

That is if people are willing to give up the overseas white nationalists and the genocide nonsense, and lets not being naive, there is a lot of that. You cannot be aware of farm killings and NOT come across the material

why are you conflating farmers and farm workers,

the chant goes, shoot the boer, not, shoot the farm worker.

 

[supersunbird]

why are you conflating farmers and farm workers,

the chant goes, shoot the boer, not, shoot the farm worker.

So thus the song actually has little affect, since more farm workers are killed?

(I don't get the point you are trying to make)

 

[STS]

If you knew that, why did you not say so then? Why ask a rhetoric question?
Truth is that some of them took the offer up, and then immediately left the SAPS Reserve because there was "no free transport" to SAPS stations located sometimes more than 60 Km away. This gave impetus tomany urban unemployed reservists who applied in their thousands to "serve" in urban areas, as paid members, something that the urban reservists were never afforded nor even contemplated. Imagine, here are thoroughly incompetent people, being given uniforms, and rank, and weapons that they did not know how to use, and they were being paid?


You were the one who first mentioned race, asking specifically where the black commandos went to. I don't dispute this fact though, but in fairness to both black and white commandos, it also seemed like a pretty raw deal. Why travel 60kms four times per month to the distant police station to do your duty, and receive orders from an incompetent officer to do a foot patrol for four hours in Cullinan CBD, when you have a wife and children at home sixty kilometres away? Or even further?


And this I somewhat agree with, mostly military skills, not policing skills, and without the payment that they were used to. Do you want to tell me that the ANC's president and minister of safety and security did not know it either? It proves that this was an orchestrated, conscious and deliberate move to remove any possible form of organised government sanctioned protection that vulnerable farmers had, in pursuit of the ANC's political frogboiling agenda.

[/QUOTE]

I brought up race to illustrate that it was it was a multiracial system that was disbanded, it didn't specifically target white people.

I brought up the black commandoes referring to "military precision" of some farm attacks. What is more likely in the case of a signal jammer, that a criminal stole one, a guy who hijacks vehicles decided to moonlight in farm robberies for a week or the ANC is outfitting random people to carry out farm murders?

It very likely WAS removed due to an agenda. And the countries pension funds were possibly looted due to an agenda as well. Because a series of **** ups lead to disaster doesn't mean the intention was the same from the beginning. We may as well rationalise that a guy walking through Hillbrow killing someone in self defense WANTED to kill someone with his gun because why would he walk there?

The ANC was at fault but this isn't going to get fixed any other way, so

1.) Ditch the racial overtones of the movement
2.) Find a solution that assists more people than just farmers and farm workers
3.) Find a viable way of bringing the commandoes back through civilised talks without shitting on the government at every opportunity
4.) Focus on fixing the problem than whinging about it for 20 years

I don't like the government one but, but I'm not the one applying for refugee statuses, sharing murdered people on twitter, joining Facebook groups for Boers against genocide and signing all the petitions I can. Let's do something more concrete as a country

 

[STS]

why are you conflating farmers and farm workers,

the chant goes, shoot the boer, not, shoot the farm worker.

How many people chanting "shoot the boer" have been arrested in relation to farm crimes?

Why are so many farm workers attacked? Cant' see them in the dark so they just shoot at random?

 

[RonSwanson]

View attachment 883508

So in the context of the tweet, when Ramphosa said he did not have an opportunity to discuss this with Trump, what do you think he was referring to?

"Oh yes, plenty of farmers are dying! Just not by the ANC!"

Rama******'s message in the video is very, very clear to me, and to most reasonable people who listen, or read, and who understand english. 1) he is saying that Trump is "misinformed". Anyone with a sober mind and who just follow this thread's posts would disagree. 2) He is denying that even a single farm murder occurs: "There are no killings of farmers, or white farmers in South Africa". This also is a lie. An ANC lie.

If it isn't to you, then good luck with that,

 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Here is the best source of stats I could find on the issue:

FACTSHEET: Statistics on farm attacks and murders in South Africa

Violent attacks on people living and working on farms in South Africa frequently make local and international headlines. This factsheet breaks down the available statistics and explores its limitations.

africacheck.org

This is from independent sources mentioning the challenges, not the government

View attachment 883506

Thank you. A long article echoing exactly what I said.

Why does SAPS not have those stats? How can they prioritize crimes if they have no facts. So why not? It's not as if this is a new problem and there has been no red flags. The relevant competency as illustrated with other stats is there, but not here.

 

[RonSwanson]

I brought up race to illustrate that it was it was a multiracial system that was disbanded, it didn't specifically target white people.

I brought up the black commandoes referring to "military precision" of some farm attacks. What is more likely in the case of a signal jammer, that a criminal stole one, a guy who hijacks vehicles decided to moonlight in farm robberies for a week or the ANC is outfitting random people to carry out farm murders?

It very likely WAS removed due to an agenda. And the countries pension funds were possibly looted due to an agenda as well. Because a series of **** ups lead to disaster doesn't mean the intention was the same from the beginning. We may as well rationalise that a guy walking through Hillbrow killing someone in self defense WANTED to kill someone with his gun because why would he walk there?

The ANC was at fault but this isn't going to get fixed any other way, so

1.) Ditch the racial overtones of the movement
2.) Find a solution that assists more people than just farmers and farm workers
3.) Find a viable way of bringing the commandoes back through civilised talks without shitting on the government at every opportunity
4.) Focus on fixing the problem than whinging about it for 20 years

I don't like the government one but, but I'm not the one applying for refugee statuses, sharing murdered people on twitter, joining Facebook groups for Boers against genocide and signing all the petitions I can. Let's do something more concrete as a country
[/QUOTE]
So now you're singing from another hymsheet?

 

[access]

So thus the song actually has little affect, since more farm workers are killed?

(I don't get the point you are trying to make)

boer, has a very specific connotation to white afrikaans speaking farm owners in south africa. and other parts of the world.

boere are the target. adding farm workers in general to the pool is diluting the subject.

how could you expect an action against a very specific target to exceed the same action against the majority in your statistical suggestion.
like for example lets compare it to animals, why have endangered species lists if more other species get killed in general.

do you follow the concept? "shoot the dodo!" until....

 

[STS]

Rama******'s message in the video is very, very clear to me, and to most reasonable people who listen, or read, and who understand english. 1) he is saying that Trump is "misinformed". Anyone with a sober mind and who just follow this thread's posts would disagree. 2) He is denying that even a single farm murder occurs: "There are no killings of farmers, or white farmers in South Africa". This also is a lie. An ANC lie.

If it isn't to you, then good luck with that,

I literally googled his explanation and he said word for word what I suggested he meant

Now here is the thing, we don't HAVE to agree on what he meant, we don't even have to agree on whether he is honest, right, wrong, anything. He said what he said and it is done.

HOW are we going to fix it though? How is playing this clip a million times going to fix the situation? How is thinking he is a twat going to stop farm murders?

You have to reach the point where you either WANT to fix something, or you're resigned to accept your fate and nothing can be done, but don't kick the only opportunity you have of fixing the situation, and then whine that there is no way to fix it.

No foreign country has stepped in. No political party has gained traction. NO amount of retweets or petitions is going to stop these killers. What do we do?

Do we care about our own pride at the end of the day, or the future of the people in this country?

 

[STS]

So now you're singing from another hymsheet?

And what hymn-sheet is that?

If literal Nazis are picking up your movement, there is a problem with it. Same with communists picking up BLM.

 

[STS]

Thank you. A long article echoing exactly what I said.

Why does SAPS not have those stats? How can they prioritize crimes if they have no facts. So why not? It's not as if this is a new problem and there has been no red flags. The relevant competency as illustrated with other stats is there, but not here.

Honestly, coz I feel SAPS is useless but on another note, the parties investigating this probably had more money and a vested interest (as well as much integrity money could buy.)

 

[access]

How many people chanting "shoot the boer" have been arrested in relation to farm crimes?

Why are so many farm workers attacked? Cant' see them in the dark so they just shoot at random?

lol silly argument.

do you know what incitement or motivate means.

how many people chanting "**** da police" have been arrested in relation to crime against police officers. but hey, "thug life"....

 

[STS]

boer, has a very specific connotation to white afrikaans speaking farm owners in south africa. and other parts of the world.

boere are the target. adding farm workers in general to the pool is diluting the subject.

how could you expect an action against a very specific target to exceed the same action against the majority in your statistical suggestion.
like for example lets compare it to animals, why have endangered species lists if more other species get killed in general.

do you follow the concept? "shoot the dodo!" until....

So farm workers lives DON'T matter? they aren't important when farms get attacked?