Fix the schools first before applying racist legislation

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

"With 40% of all graduates being white, it is absurd to insist that whites should make up only 10% of the skilled labour force," says SA Institute of Race Relations researcher Kerwin Lebone.

The Employment Equity Act aims to make the workplace broadly reflective of the racial make-up of the country's 49,3m population, which is 79,3% African, 9,1% white, 9% coloured and 2,6% Indian, according to Stats SA.

"Fix the education system properly first and the racial and demographic job representation that [government] is trying to achieve will follow automatically in, say, 10 years' time," he says.

Lebone was commenting on findings in the SA Institute of Race Relations' latest South Africa Survey showing that white students accounted for 40,6% (31 686) of the 77 981 tertiary degrees awarded by SA universities in 2007. African students received the most - 44% (34 364 degrees) - that year, Indians 8,7% and coloureds 6,3%.

Lebone says big companies have to fight for a relatively small pool of black graduates to meet government's employment equity targets.

While unemployment increases, among the unskilled especially, SA has a growing shortage of engineers, accountants, doctors and scientists.

"In reality there are not enough skilled black graduates to take up the number of positions available," Lebone says.

"What needs to be addressed is the quality of the primary and secondary education system that feeds the tertiary level. There aren't enough good maths and science schools out there... The training and commitment of teachers needs to be reinforced," he says.

Source: Financial Mail

Just another reason why affirmative action/'demographic representatively' doesn't work in practise. How on earth are many [young] whites meant to get jobs if companies apply affirmative action strictly? Only 1 in 4 [who have degrees] will in theory get a job.

 

[DreamKing]

Lebone was commenting on findings in the SA Institute of Race Relations' latest South Africa Survey showing that white students accounted for 40,6% (31 686) of the 77 981 tertiary degrees awarded by SA universities in 2007. African students received the most - 44% (34 364 degrees) - that year, Indians 8,7% and coloureds 6,3%.

I don't undestand what that means?

The Employment Equity Act aims to make the workplace broadly reflective of the racial make-up of the country's 49,3m population, which is 79,3% African, 9,1% white, 9% coloured and 2,6% Indian, according to Stats SA.

easy, restricted admission of white students in universities. NO WHITE ALLOW TO EDUCATE!
Problem solved!

Is that easy? Question -> you want all educated white students unemployed? Or you want to improve productivity of south afirca? You choose! If you only want "the workplace broadly reflective of the racial make-up", why we have to educate white students? waste of resources! They have no jobs anyways! :erm:

 

[ponder]

I don't undestand what that means?

Out of all the students in SA being awarded degrees the majority are black.

Yes we are all african but the word is reserved for black people.

 

[Morgoth]

"Government should perhaps pour its energy into ensuring that all South Africans have a decent education rather than wasting time on racial bean counting," says Lebone.

I totally agree with him, restricting students restrict our productivity.

 

[Gnome]

I think the problem is further compounded by the fact that most of those degrees don't fall into science, engineering, accountants or doctors.

I'm not sure about other degrees but our BSc(Computer Science, IT, Multimedia) group consisted of 95% non black. I'm not sure what it looks like for other science degrees but my guess is that in those areas black people still make up a smaller percentage.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Do you know that BEE also applies to teachers and such.

Think about it, you want people to get educated, so they can enter the workplace, compete on merit, and have the normal racial distribution. In order to get people properly educated, one would think you would need the best teachers and professors etc.

An older sister of a friend of mine was let go after her contract was up at UJ, teaching a couple of courses, because she was white. In the department there are BEE people being employed who don't know what they are doing, how to teach students at an acceptable standard etc.

At the end of the day, the students get screwed around, not educated, society suffers so that one person can get a job that they are unequiped to handle.

 

[hyperian]

I'm not sure about other degrees but our BSc(Computer Science, IT, Multimedia) group consisted of 95% non black.

I would say that the 1st year computer science students at uct are at least 60% black. It's been a while since I was a fresher but from what I've seen/heard, that statistic seems to be a good ballpark figure. Although in my honours class of 35 only 5 or so were black. The rest were white/coloured.

 

[Gnome]

I would say that the 1st year computer science students at uct are at least 60% black.

Yeah our first year also had plenty of black people but many changed degrees or dropped out or something. Pretty much lots of people dropped out or just disappeared so no surprise.

I'm at Tuks btw. graduated this year.

 

[krycor]

UCT's numbers are always weird but it's not just race dependant, a big % of cs students disappear after the 2nd yr. 1st point of failure/drop out is at 1st yr maths + science, not so much csc. In fact one year they had the highest pass rates for cs for 1st yr yet the same progression of students/class disappearing in the system occurred in successive yrs. I think part of it maths/physics vs school, but the 'other' problem is that technically its in the science faculty(i.e. students will change majors and lets face it, cs is a time sucker vs other courses).

btw.. uct is in cpt so you'd expect more coloured people

 

[ponder]

I think the problem is further compounded by the fact that most of those degrees don't fall into science, engineering, accountants or doctors.

Ja, they do mostly 'Arts' related degrees which does not really help the country.

 

[Morgoth]

well Being a 1st year student at tuks, we were about 50% black and white... at the end of the year during our pracs, only 30 out of more or less 120 civil Engineers were left..those statistics don't mean much for specific fields.

 

[wrathex]

The thirst for knowledge : death by bling

There aren't enough good maths and science schools out there... The training and commitment of teachers needs to be reinforced," he says.

That is not the problem.

The problem is: a lack of curiosity, and lack of interest in science.

Is scientific curiosity a cultural phenomena and can it be taught where none exists ?


_________________
Free houses, free schools, free electricity, free water, free healthcare - who needs science ?

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

Do you know that BEE also applies to teachers and such.

Think about it, you want people to get educated, so they can enter the workplace, compete on merit, and have the normal racial distribution. In order to get people properly educated, one would think you would need the best teachers and professors etc.

An older sister of a friend of mine was let go after her contract was up at UJ, teaching a couple of courses, because she was white. In the department there are BEE people being employed who don't know what they are doing, how to teach students at an acceptable standard etc.

At the end of the day, the students get screwed around, not educated, society suffers so that one person can get a job that they are unequiped to handle.

Tell me about it. Our macro-economics exam was one of the most poorly set exams I've ever seen. Firstly there was the obligatory 'have the same answer in two of the options' (e.g. Choice 'A' and 'B' had the same answer, the exam was MCQ) and secondly numerous questions which did either did not have enough information or were highly ambiguous. Luckily I think they listened to some of my complaints about a few questions, and I obtained quite a high mark but that shouldn't excuse them from setting a poorly-worded paper. I honestly wonder if the group of lecturers tried to do the paper themselves before giving it to us?

Oh yeah, the economics department is like giving us 'student' lecturers (masters or Ph.D students) who can't lecture at all. They're entirely useless and shouldn't ever be allowed to lecture ever again. And then the economics department likes sending us messages about how 'we' must work harder...yes for some maybe people that is the case; but getting good grades shouldn't be only about the student...the lectures should at least give some direction/depth on what they're talking about.

 

[DreamKing]

Out of all the students in SA being awarded degrees the majority are black.

Yes we are all african but the word is reserved for black people.

I knew "African = Black" ....

but what make me confused is the following ...

Lebone says big companies have to fight for a relatively small pool of black graduates to meet government's employment equity targets.

if we have more black than white, why it is "relatively small pool black graduates"? not enough black graduates or not enough black graduates for particular position? Like Gnome and hyperian said, Bsc never had enough graduate students. I can tell you for my year, it is about 2 to 3 black graduate students out of 1000 graduate students in the Bsc graduation ceremony.

 

[Kosmik]

The same standards should apply to all and if a candidate qualifies , give them the damn job. Why do we insist on crippling our economy and industry, by trying to enforce a demo graphic that as he suggests will take time to alter.

All we do is harm ourselves more by perpetrating this farce. As someone who has a say in hiring, I don't care what your race/religion/creed is, can you do the job your being paid to do?

 

[saffakanera]

The same standards should apply to all and if a candidate qualifies , give them the damn job. Why do we insist on crippling our economy and industry, by trying to enforce a demo graphic that as he suggests will take time to alter.

All we do is harm ourselves more by perpetrating this farce. As someone who has a say in hiring, I don't care what your race/religion/creed is, can you do the job your being paid to do?

You don't care? What about meeting the required BEE quota? Surely you care about that?

 

[Kosmik]

You don't care? What about meeting the required BEE quota? Surely you care about that?

Me, no. That is human resources job to concern themselves with. I just need team members who can perform, fit in with the corp culture and do their job. Driving a car or over a bridge, which do you prefer? Knowing that it was built by someone competent at the job or concerned about the fact that the company hired a person to fulfil a demo-graphic quota.

Business should be political, religous and culturaly independant. Education is where the problem is and it should be solved there, not in the market place which feeds the economy. For people already in the job market, there should be improvement and training for disadvantaged but when hiring/applying for promotion, skills should be what matters.

 

[noxibox]

The problem isn't affirmative action. It's the inflexible quotas and a lack of a coherent plan to build the skills to fill those positions.

Would the situation self-correct with only the development of skills? Maybe, over a much longer period of time. Maybe not. Employment does not occur only on merit. If it did skilled women would never have had any trouble getting employed as engineers or being promoted. But they did.

Do you know that BEE also applies to teachers and such.

Think about it, you want people to get educated, so they can enter the workplace, compete on merit, and have the normal racial distribution. In order to get people properly educated, one would think you would need the best teachers and professors etc.

An older sister of a friend of mine was let go after her contract was up at UJ, teaching a couple of courses, because she was white. In the department there are BEE people being employed who don't know what they are doing, how to teach students at an acceptable standard etc.

At the end of the day, the students get screwed around, not educated, society suffers so that one person can get a job that they are unequiped to handle.

BEE, really? I wouldn't have thought teaching profitable enough.

In my experience there were a good deal of people who didn't belong in the job. At the same time a number of good teachers left teaching because the pay was so poor. Sounds like not much has changed. The same applied at university level, that the majority of those lecturing lacked any trace of teaching skill. Maybe they'd all been hired because they were white, and mostly male.

That is not the problem.

The problem is: a lack of curiosity, and lack of interest in science.

Is scientific curiosity a cultural phenomena and can it be taught where none exists ?

If it is a cultural phenomenon in which cultures does it occur because we have long struggled to get enough people doing science and engineering subjects?

 

[scotty777]

That is not the problem.

The problem is: a lack of curiosity, and lack of interest in science.

Is scientific curiosity a cultural phenomena and can it be taught where none exists ?

Sigh... Science is not a cultural thing. I know many "white" people that simple can't grasp the subject...

Not everyone can be amazing at every subject... some are better at English, others are better at maths and so on... Culturally, I'm very indifferent from my friends, yet I just have a liking towards science. So no, Science is far from a culturally influenced subject.

Perhaps all it comes down to is that you actually need to work your arse off at the subject, and the kids of today want instant gratification.