GATTACA.ZA - New DNA Bill

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Fingolfin

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"The new Bill ensures that the future of the current DNA Database is expanded and managed in a regulated and appropriate manner."
"The DNA Bill makes it mandatory to take DNA samples from suspects at the time of arrest for schedule one offences."
http://dnaproject.co.za/legislation-homepage/legislation/a-new-dna-bill

"Collecting the DNA of individuals yet to be convicted of a crime, many of whom will never be convicted and some of whom are known to be innocent at the time but whose DNA is collected because they are part of a suspicious group is a serious intrusion into the privacy and human rights of the public."
http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/2013/06/12/dna-proposals-violate-rights-of-the-innocent

"Well-known forensics expert and fervent critic of the science in South Africa, Dr David Klatzow, believes that while a DNA database has great potential for solving crimes, it would suffer from the same mismanagement and corruption that is rife in government.
“Do you think a low official who is tasked with doing the DNA collection is not going to be amenable to a bribe to split that sample and sell some of it to an insurance company?”
He says that in this scenario of corruption, medical aid companies would have access to our genetic information, such as inherited diseases, and would be able to manipulate our premiums. If the wrong people get hold of our private medical information, it could be used to discriminate against us.
Naidoo says that apart from storing medical information, the DNA database could also be used to identify a person’s relatives, which many people might consider very private. She says privacy is a constitutional right and we will have no idea who is looking at our details, never mind giving them permission to do so."
http://journalism.co.za/indepth/joburgjustice/?page_id=278

An older article:
http://mg.co.za/article/2009-02-19-dna-proposal-will-violate-rights

"Currently we have 180000 profiles on our database. This legislation will enable us to increase the size of our database and use it as a criminal-intelligence tool," said Vanessa Lynch, executive director of the DNA Project. ...But, David Klatzow, a private consulting forensic scientist, said that the current forensic system was flawed and undermanned: "There isn't a single fully accredited forensic laboratory in South Africa," he said.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2013/05/22/dna-bill-brings-justice

"The more people on the National DNA Database, the better the chance of finding a match or a “hit” between a DNA profile from a crime scene and a DNA profile from the Database which could lead to a suspect or even the perpetrator"
http://www.ddsattorneys.co.za/index.php?action=case&newsId=8

NOTE: Reading carefully into the words from the link above (coming from lawyers, usually exacting word-smiths...) one can only presume they are doing "deep dives" into DNA records of non-suspects. How do these non-suspects get into the system? I repeat: "...which could lead to a suspect or even the perpetrator".

Unfortunately, as with the e-Tolls, the primary complaint is about the cost, which in my mind is like haggling over the kind of axe the executioner will use to behead you::
http://www.enca.com/south-africa/mp-s-pushing-dna-bill
 
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I actually don't have an issue with this on the condition that once a sample has been analysed and recorded it's destroyed.
 
ponder said:
I actually don't have an issue with this on the condition that once a sample has been analysed and recorded it's destroyed.
Click to expand...

How will we always guarantee that it is destroyed?

...and what does that matter, if it has already been recorded?

How much is recorded?

We are told that only key "sample points" are recorded - a minimal set of markers that enable uniquely ID'ing an individual, but the layman will simply have to trust that additional information is not also being squirreled away (personally sensitive information, such as those genes that reveal, or could in future reveal, aspects about ourselves that we'd prefer not to share with corporations, government institutions or even our best friends)

Any project that attempts to centralize masses of personally sensitive information should be looked upon with wariness. See the sidebars referencing the hurdles to the new biometric ID card at this page: http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56015

See also the "secure central database" that "protects" all our RICA details.

vault-12.jpg
 
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Fingolfin said:
How will we always guarantee that it is destroyed?

How much is recorded?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there will be no guarantees.

I don't really care, they could record my entire DNA structure. Imagine how cool it would be in time to come where they can detect bad genes that I might pass on to my kids that amplifies there risk of things like down syndrome etc or they can determine I have genes that will cause a certain form of cancer that maybe one they they can find a cure for etc. I have no qualms about my DNA living in a database as long as it's used for good but yeah I understand what you are saying.
 
ponder said:
Unfortunately there will be no guarantees..
Click to expand...

Hear hear.

Taxman: "Guarantees? In life there are none but Death and Taxes"

Singularitarian: "Guarantees? Only your monthly brain-core auto-update subscription debit order."

----------

From the Hippocratic Oath: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

"What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about."

The only purpose of a centralized database is for Ease of Access ("spreading about").
 
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What's happening overseas?:

"Slowly, and largely under the radar, a growing number of local law enforcement agencies across the country have moved into what had previously been the domain of the F.B.I. and state crime labs - amassing their own DNA databases of potential suspects, some collected with the donors’ knowledge, and some without it."

"As local authorities devise their own policies, they are increasingly taking DNA from people on the mere suspicion of a crime, long before any arrest, and holding on to it regardless of the outcome. Often detectives get DNA samples simply by asking suspects for them. "

“If an officer goes to your house on a burglary, they will swab a door handle and then they will ask, ‘Can we get a sample from the homeowner so we can eliminate them as the source?’ ” Chief Muldoon said. “They say, ‘Sure.’ ”

"The homeowner’s sample goes into the database, too, Chief Muldoon said. In many jurisdictions, so would samples from others even briefly considered potential suspects."

“That’s so profoundly disturbing — that you would give DNA to the police to clear yourself and then once cleared, the police use it to investigate you for other crimes, and retain it indefinitely,”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/13/u...mbling-records-of-dna.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
 
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I can't wait for the day where even 10% of the population is sequenced, stored in a database and analysed. The possibilities are endless.

There really is no reason why your DNA shouldn't be catalogued with your fingerprints when you get an ID.
 
Garson007 said:
I can't wait for the day where even 10% of the population is sequenced, stored in a database and analysed. The possibilities are endless. There really is no reason why your DNA shouldn't be catalogued with your fingerprints when you get an ID.
Click to expand...

Yes, the possibilities are endless!

But bear in mind that in a universe of infinite possibilities, every possible evil will manifest - along with every possible good. So hold thumbs that your guardian dice keeps landing on "good".

IMO, a nation should not bind itself to laws that lead to outcomes that it cannot reason about.

This thread, short as it is, is full of good reasons why DNA should NOT be catalogued by default.
 
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Well, Garson007, I suppose you've got nothing to hide, and therefore nothing to fear.

----

It's not directly related to the DNA Bill (yet), but it looks like we won't get to know what exactly is going into our new biometric "mark of the beast" mk II:

'Pandor has alluded to additional information that will be added to the ID smart card, but has declined to comment on the specifics of this information: "Unfortunately, the information cannot be disclosed, except that it will contain the same information as the green ID book."'

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/ar...s-expected-to-happen-in-april-2014-2012-12-07

Read the above quote in context of these ones: http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56015

"The exact details of what data will reside on the chip are still under discussion, Mmakau says."

"The scheme will replace existing green ID books with smart card IDs, intended to reduce fraud and enable a suite of new services in the public and private sectors."

"Around the world, electronic ID card projects are enabling next-generation e-government for millions of people, from simple identification cards to fully-integrated systems extending across public sector departments and into the private sector."

Gotta love those public/private partnerships: http://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

"Not many government departments are integrated yet, but this will be a key enabling factor. Identity is critical for many projects, and the DHA is the custodian of identity. We will be creating the interface for other stakeholders."

Interfaces for other stakeholders? Other than government departments? Private institutions like banks I suppose? Interfaces are security risks.

"DHA is the custodian of identity."

I'll manage my own identity thanks.

"Extensive work will have to take place to upgrade home affairs offices with live capture technology, which will enrol citizens and capture photographs, fingerprints and electronic signatures."

Citizen! Step forward to be enroled and captured.

"Integration with other players, Arnaud emphasises, is vital. "Success depends on making it easy for service providers, either public or private sector, to get linked into the system. Many countries start with integrating basic services like tax and then grow into other services."

Let's read that again: "Success depends on MAKING IT EASY for SERVICE-PROVIDERS, either PUBLIC or PRIVATE sector, to get LINKED INTO THE SYSTEM".

Service-provider-linkage in the news: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

The name "private sector" is becoming something of an oxymoron.

"In other countries, typical third-party projects include tax filing, transport services, healthcare, libraries, utility companies, drivers' licences, lottery tickets...any service which requires definite proof of identity, age, residency or similar personal data."

Funny how an increasing number of activities require proof of identity these days. Where do we draw the boundaries?
Anyone read Ubik by Philip K. Dick? Authorized and Micro-charged to open your own fridge.

From http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2013/05/23/id-cards-roll-out-in-july and http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/ar...s-expected-to-happen-in-april-2014-2012-12-07

""The smart card is part of the national effort to consolidate the restoration, common citizenship and identity and dignity to our people," she said.
"This is a security-tight process... Hard luck to those with fraudulent documents."

Behold the amazing new biometric, security-hardened, unforgeable ID card!
Anyone found with a forged ID card is in big trouble!

Remember how RICA was going to make it difficult to use a cellphone "illegally"?: http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/kwazulu-natal/reporters-investigate-rica-loophole-1.1177725
 
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Garson007 said:
I can't wait for the day where even 10% of the population is sequenced, stored in a database and analysed. The possibilities are endless.

There really is no reason why your DNA shouldn't be catalogued with your fingerprints when you get an ID.
Click to expand...

I wish that everyones DNA be analysed.
 
Fingolfin said:
Well, Garson007, I suppose you've got nothing to hide, and therefore nothing to fear.
Click to expand...
It's not about having anything to hide. My DNA is certainly not something I'd need to hide. My DNA being sequenced and stored in a database will allow me to get assigned drugs/exercise routines/diagnostics/psychotherapy/rehabilitation/career advice/etcetera that are designed for my biological system. My DNA being stored in the database with million others can increase research in behaviour/biology/prognosis/nurture vs. nature/etcetera.
 
Garson007 said:
It's not about having anything to hide. My DNA is certainly not something I'd need to hide. My DNA being sequenced and stored in a database will allow me to get assigned drugs/exercise routines/diagnostics/psychotherapy/rehabilitation/career advice/etcetera that are designed for my biological system.
Click to expand...

Well, you must feel confidant then of your ability to pay for the various analysis and treatments that might come your way, and for the potential insurance premium adjustments that come with your insurance company knowing more about your health than you might like. Count your blessings. Others less fortunate may find themselves second-class citizens by social and digital decree, as happens in the namesake movie of this thread.

Consider also that companies implicated in the current PRISM scandal (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/536319-The-NSA-Internet-Surveillance-Scandal) are making aggressive technological pushes into the medical realm:

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/28/google-health-data-privacy
* http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/12/apple-ipad-doctors/all/
* http://theprivacyplace.org/author/privacyplace/
* http://arstechnica.com/business/201...u-to-stop-worrying-and-let-him-fix-the-world/
* http://insidegoogle.com/2009/12/googles-privacy-pr-meaningless-until-ceo-schmidt-gets-it/

Some discussion about the implications of over-dissemination of medical information:
http://science.slashdot.org/story/1...page-you-worry-too-much-about-medical-privacy

"Computer say's no".
 
Keeper

Garson007 said:
It's not about having anything to hide. My DNA is certainly not something I'd need to hide. My DNA being sequenced and stored in a database will allow me to get assigned drugs/exercise routines/diagnostics/psychotherapy/rehabilitation/career advice/etcetera that are designed for my biological system. My DNA being stored in the database with million others can increase research in behaviour/biology/prognosis/nurture vs. nature/etcetera.
Click to expand...
This one is either a sok-pup
or
A member of the elite

Just remember that Winston Smith was also a member of the "party"

In chapter 3, of book 3 in 1984, it is shown that the way the inner party presents themselves to the public is an complete front of how they really are behind closed doors. An example of of what the party presents to the public being true rubbish is is Goldstein's book. When O'Brien is asked by Winston if the contents of the book is true he responds by saying, " As description, yes. The program it sets forth is nonsense...The rule of the party is forever. Make that the starting point of your thoughts." This shows that the party's goal is to trap and rid of those that go against them. O'brian stresses that the party is impossible to overthrow. Another example of what the party presents to the public is not true, is that they make the community think their interested in thier own good. This is shown when O'brian says, " The party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power." This shows that the party's primary goal is to gain as much power as possible no matter how unhappy the communtiy becomes. In light of above, The party does not show to the public that all they care about is the power of the party rather than the happiness of the public.

The "party" are the ultimate sok-pups

@Fingolfin

I pointed all this stuff ( smart-card-ID ) out eons ago -- no-one took any notice then -- they are not taking any notice NOW !
 
Vanessa Lynch

@Fingolfin

Look up Vanessa Lynch

Suggest she make ALL her mail passwords , computer login password etc etc available ONLINE !

I am guessing she is also a member of GFSA ........
 
b@nD said:
@Fingolfin
I pointed all this stuff ( smart-card-ID ) out eons ago -- no-one took any notice then -- they are not taking any notice NOW !
Click to expand...

We each appease our conscience in the best way we can. My hope here is simply that someone more eloquent and with a greater audience than I might find some interesting links and arguments for their research into the topic. For all my bluster here, I am actually rather pessimistic about the possibilities - but admitting as much is tantamount to propaganda against positive action and should be looked upon with suspicion - so instead... HOPE! CHANGE!)
 
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