Gay marriages bill approved

[Raithlin]

What proof do you have that it's not.

That's exactly it. It hasn't been proven either way - despite many studies to do so. How then can we assume that it is so? In fact, studies have shown that people can change their sexual orientation at will - successfully. Does that not go against the "I was born that way" argument?

Article by former-homosexual

 

[BCO]

How did every culture come about with the idea that marriage be man-woman in the first place?

Last time I checked, that was the best way to procreate and that's why men and women became mates.

I could ask you the same thing though Raithlin: Why is it that some people in every culture find others of the same sex attractive? The fact of the matter is that there will always be homosexual people, we may as well accept that and give them the rights that they deserve.

As far as same sex relationships not lasting as long (assuming that's true): maybe when your lifestyle is shunned by society as has been for time immemorial, and you're forced to have secret relationships, it's hard to make long term commitments. Then when legislation suddenly changes and you CAN have an openly gay relationship, you're not accustomed to this way of life.

Why only now are we "becoming more open"? Why is it not something that happened centuries ago?

Being flogged/burned at the stake etc. tends to discourage people from being "open".

 

[Raithlin]

Basically, it's all religious. The bible said that no man should be with another man, and in those days religion was the be all and end all.

Nowadays people are starting to think for themselves, and not wholly listen to all that perscribed nonsense.

That argument only holds true for those cultures based on Judeo-Christian values. What about the rest? Aborigines, African tribes, Indians, Oriental?

 

[chiskop]

You know what, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter to me whether it is a choice that people make, or whether it is something with which they are born.

You do not have the right to impose your morals and beliefs about marriage on anyone else.

This just applies the same rules to everybody.

 

[BCO]

QFT Chiskop

 

[Highflyer_GP]

Why now are we seeking to redefine what for literally thousands of years has been respected - even reinforced by law - by all cultures, all people? Are we to assume that we are more enlightened? That we "know better"? What is it that gives us this right?

That's the problem right there - implementing laws based on culture/religion. There have always been homos, but due to cultural intolerance which then gave rise to intolerance of the law, they have been too scared to say/do anything about it. IMO this is how it should have been in the beginning, where people have a right to live their life without having to be victimised based on their choices.

 

[Raithlin]

Last time I checked, that was the best way to procreate and that's why men and women became mates.

I could ask you the same thing though Raithlin: Why is it that some people in every culture find others of the same sex attractive? The fact of the matter is that there will always be homosexual people, we may as well accept that and give them the rights that they deserve.

You could indeed, and I could give you my answer, but it would be based on my [biblical] values, and you may not accept it [I don't presume to know your value base, but am making an educated guess here].

As far as same sex relationships not lasting as long (assuming that's true): maybe when your lifestyle is shunned by society as has been for time immemorial, and you're forced to have secret relationships, it's hard to make long term commitments. Then when legislation suddenly changes and you CAN have an openly gay relationship, you're not accustomed to this way of life.



Being flogged/burned at the stake etc. tends to discourage people from being "open".

These numbers were taken from a study done in Sweden - easily the most homosexually open country on the planet. They (the laws) have been for quite a while too. You're also flying in the face of many long-term relationships (Take our old friend Elton, for instance) - despite lack of legislation.

 

[SlickNick]

I can't speak for neither of those races. I can guess at indian and oriental where their religions also state that it is an abomination etc.

But I bet you, if you ask it of those cultures that they will say that their religion speaks against it. And those cultures live their religions to the fullest, they are basically zealots.

 

[Raithlin]

That's the problem right there - implementing laws based on culture/religion. There have always been homos, but due to cultural intolerance which then gave rise to intolerance of the law, they have been too scared to say/do anything about it. IMO this is how it should have been in the beginning, where people have a right to live their life without having to be victimised based on their choices.

I never said anything about religion in that post. You are all talking about "civilised" cultures, based on Judeo-Christian values. I have no argument there. I'm talking about the rest of the world's cultures, where there has been no inkling of said values - yet there remains a shunning of the same-sex marriage in almost all cases (I don't now the facts, so there may be a culture that did indeed promote homosexual unions).

 

[neio]

I reserve comment seeing as I'll be attacked for not thinking this is a good thing.

They shall reap what they sow, And so it shall be, Sela!

 

[Highflyer_GP]

I can't speak for neither of those races. I can guess at indian and oriental where their religions also state that it is an abomination etc.

But I bet you, if you ask it of those cultures that they will say that their religion speaks against it. And those cultures live their religions to the fullest, they are basically zealots.

A bit of a generalisation there to assume that all indians and orientals follow eastern religions - I know many who are christian, atheist, agnostic etc.

 

[Raithlin]

I can't speak for neither of those races. I can guess at indian and oriental where their religions also state that it is an abomination etc.

But I bet you, if you ask it of those cultures that they will say that their religion speaks against it. And those cultures live their religions to the fullest, they are basically zealots.

There's an amazing discovery. All [see disclaimer above] the religions against it? Why? And where did those religions come from? How is it they were all this way?

I'd like to present two possibilities:
1. They are based on nature - and nature takes its course with man-woman unions.
2. They all stem from one core religion.

Care to respond?

 

[Highflyer_GP]

I never said anything about religion in that post. You are all talking about "civilised" cultures, based on Judeo-Christian values. I have no argument there.

Irrespective, are we not living in a civilised culture now? We cannot use past intolerance by any culture to try and prove the future - it simply doesn't work that way. We need to look at current circumstances and how things stand at this point in time.

 

[Raithlin]

Irrespective, are we not living in a civilised culture now? We cannot use past intolerance by any culture to try and prove the future - it simply doesn't work that way. We need to look at current circumstances and how things stand at this point in time.

Oh, indisputably. Move forward we must. I was simply wondering why it has taken mankind so long to come to this point.

Oh, in response to the "born that way" argument - Science vs. the "Gay Gene".

[EDIT]
It should be made known at this point that while I may appear to be against the legislation, I am totally for freedom of expression - of anything. Some of my best mates are/were gay. I didn't shun them for their choices.
[/EDIT]

 

[SlickNick]

Sorry for the generalisation. But you get the gist of it.

The religios issue get's old. And sure nature does determine that men and woman makes more men and woman ect. I have no explanation for why people are homosexual or asexual etc. They just are. And to call all that many people being gay a fluke is rather silly. Sure there might be an explanation for why people are gay, but untill there is solid scientific proof, people will always be arguing about it.

The fact though remains that there are gay people, and they must have the same rights as any other person on this planet.

Marriage gives people extra rights, and makes life a bit easier for married people. Homosexuals want those very same rights. The person that they partner up for life is their "one true love", and that should be respected.

 

[supersunbird]

There were lots of homosexuality in the ancient world: Aztecs, Romans, Greeks, Africa, China. Alexander the Great was probably bi-sexual if not homosexual...

 

[Dave A]

I'd like to present two possibilities:
1. They are based on nature - and nature takes its course with man-woman unions.
2. They all stem from one core religion.

Care to respond?

No.2 is definitely a stretch, so I'll guess No.1

 

[neio]

Lets all have a little celebration of perversion party, sigh, it truly is the end of the world if we celebrate the fact that perversion is seen in the same light as normal unions between a man and a woman.

I've got no hope for the future of SA. The difference between right and wrong have become so blurred by our politicians that it's like giving a sick child more diseases and expect them to become better. Sad really.

 

[Raithlin]

There were lots of homosexuality in the ancient world: Aztecs, Romans, Greeks, Africa, China. Alexander the Great was probably bi-sexual if not homosexual...

I never argued that point. We know this is true. But the cultures mentioned still saw homosexuality as an abomination. WHY?

Okay, apart from the Greco-Roman era. But we all know that once they embraced this free-for-all sex, etc. that their civilisation quickly crumpled. Scary, that.

 

[Raithlin]

Lets all have a little celebration of perversion party, sigh, it truly is the end of the world if we celebrate the fact that perversion is seen in the same light as normal unions between a man and a woman.

I've got no hope for the future of SA. The difference between right and wrong have become so blurred by our politicians that it's like giving a sick child more diseases and expect them to become better. Sad really.

No, not more diseases. Just garlic, beetroot and nice healthy vegetables.