Getting into web development

Freshy-ZN : Not true. I am struggling to find people to employ at the moment. Even harder is proper programmers
 
JStrike said:
Freshy-ZN : Not true. I am struggling to find people to employ at the moment. Even harder is proper programmers
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Then consider yourself fortunate!

PS: Hows a job?

PPS: Hows a job for Schittz?
 
In all seriousness.. If you are struggling to find good staff, why not take on interns and train them up to be exactly what you need?

I know it's a lot of PT, but in the end I think it would benefit you as you would have coders do things your way and you'd have staff that appreciated being given the oppertunity.

So often I just want to put in my cover letter 'please give me a chance and I'll show you what I can do for you' but I have a feeling in this day and age ppl just want to hire someone in and not have to take the time and effort to train them. Granted, when your running a business time is money and you can't always afford to take that time, but if you are struggling to find a suitable employee, why not take on an intern to help out and get some experience till you find a suitable employee?

Far too many young people (God listen how I sound old!) today want everything now. When I started in theatre back in the day I was a lowly usher and worked my way up to Stage Manager over 7 years. Today you tell someone to do all the hump work for a few years to learn the ropes and they look at you like you've just asked if you can rape their granny. Seems that today people want to be management and if they can't then they arn't interested. Obviously this is a generalization, but I'm sure it will ring a lot of bells with people here...

I will continue to repsond to job ads for junior positions and if I have to work under a 25 year old (I'm only 31 btw) then thats the way it is. I would like to get involved in this industry somehow and if someone out there is prepaired to take a chance on me, then I will give that person my 100% and I will suck up every ounce of knowledge that I can, because at the end of the day the oppertunity to learn a skill we are interested in from those in the know is one of the biggest we will ever have.

On that note I'm off to get killed by choppers in BF2..
 
Hi schitz011! Am a bit late in the discussion :o, but I would definitely go PHP if I where you! Add to that MySQL, and the market is open! The easiest way to learn PHP would be to start playing with it. The site that I've used quite extensively to find examples and ideas, is http://www.phpclasses.org

As for Flash/MacroMedia and stuff like that, the only thing I can do is beg you not to use it! With the internet connections as they are here in SA, it is actually a pain in the butt when a site uses this extensively. Many times I have clicked away a page because it started downloading Flash or other high-bandwidth content!

Just my 2c! :D
 
schitz011 said:
Yes, I face a similar problem when trying to get photographic clients. Some people think that just because they own a camera it means they are a photographer. As you said, a lot of work is lost from this and when you do get work the second point comes into play..

The 'photographer' charges way under what he/she should be charging and in effect drives down the price the professionals can charge. For instance my hourly is R450 which covers all my equipment, office, salary etc.. but I found myself in a job recently where a photographer in CPT had charged the same company R180 ph to shoot the same thing because they were desperate to get the job, but in doing so made it impossible for me to charge my full hourly (as it turns out I've got many repeat bookings from this client so it's worked out)

I am well aware that I could set myself up as a 'web developer/designer' as I have sufficent skills to produce acceptable websites, but I would rather learn my skills in a company that has a solid foundation and cares about what it does. Too often in SA there are people who jump on bandwagons and think that because something looks simple, it must be so...

As for people not wanting to pay market related prices, you should try selling stock photography if you want to see ppl bitch and moan about fair pricing.. :)
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I studied photography (even had my own darkroom) ten years ago, and then went the law route and now I'm in development. Photography is an awesome field, but it's getting tough to make a living staying in it - especially with the advent of digital cameras getting so damned good. Law: one day I'll do my articles.

To the parent: To choose between ASP and PHP is simple: learn them both: it's not that tough to get to grips with different languages. Just make sure you gain .NET (especially with C#) experience, as (as someone has mentioned) this is an in-demand skillset. PHP can be learnt two ways: the easy way, or the right way. Learn to program PHP and it could become your best friend. Be lazy about it (as someone mentioned the Joomla CMS system), and you won't really know the language.

Then again, if you really want to be considered a guru. Learn Perl.
 
schitz011 said:
Yes, I face a similar problem when trying to get photographic clients. Some people think that just because they own a camera it means they are a photographer. As you said, a lot of work is lost from this and when you do get work the second point comes into play..

The 'photographer' charges way under what he/she should be charging and in effect drives down the price the professionals can charge. For instance my hourly is R450 which covers all my equipment, office, salary etc.. but I found myself in a job recently where a photographer in CPT had charged the same company R180 ph to shoot the same thing because they were desperate to get the job, but in doing so made it impossible for me to charge my full hourly (as it turns out I've got many repeat bookings from this client so it's worked out)
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There was recently an article about the engineering crisis in SA caused by the same thing:

Engineering consultants need to tender on each and every job - there is no fixed rates anymore.

The market went for a low (due to esp. government on all levels not starting new projects), and the engineering consultants were cutting each ohter's throats.

The result was that quite a few left the market, but worse, quality as compromised. The consulting engineers had to spend less time on a project, and had to delegate more advanced tasks to juniors than they would have done normally.

My guess is that the collapse of the infrastructure could be partially attributed to the consultants being forced to provide cheap jobs instaed of quality jobs.

In the cost management & engineering environment where I work, the results of this are very visible. The number of queries per drawing is increasing. This means we have to charge more, and during the construction phase, the contractor will have more problems at great cost. All of this wipes out the savings made by cutting the fees for the consulting engineers in the first instance.
 
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kingmonty said:
To the parent: To choose between ASP and PHP is simple: learn them both: it's not that tough to get to grips with different languages. Just make sure you gain .NET (especially with C#) experience, as (as someone has mentioned) this is an in-demand skillset. PHP can be learnt two ways: the easy way, or the right way. Learn to program PHP and it could become your best friend. Be lazy about it (as someone mentioned the Joomla CMS system), and you won't really know the language.
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So what would be the best way then to gain some experience given that companies don't exactly hand out 'come get some experience' flyers? :(
Sounds like programming is much like photography, you can acheive fair results without knowing too much about the nuts and bolts, but if you really want to be good at it, you need to learn the basics back to front. I'm asuming when you mention PHP and learning the easy way you are refering to using an Editor for PHP programming? Back in the day when I first learnt HTML I did most of the coding on notepad and it certainly helped me better understand the language..

What would be the best way to go about gaining experience in PHP, ASP, .NET and all the rest? Books? Websites? Plain old watching people code?
 
I cant take on schitz due to the lack of ASP.Net.
The problem with taking people on in an aprentice style is that they cant hit the ground running as there is a significant amount of training involved. And time is a problem I am facing
 
schitz : I know from myself that I only employ people with a degree (Preferably IS but I will consider CompSci graduates). Depending on your age, look into what is available to get a proper accreditation
 
Fair enough. I understand. This is what I am looking to do, get some accreditation. Thing is that there are so many degrees/courses/etc.. out there, which one does one choose?

I'm 31 right now, which would also count against me I suppose, but I'll keep on looking and who knows, maybe there will be an opening for me somewhere one day.

I know from my postion as a photograher, if I were to hire appies, I would at least expect them to know their chops, not anything fancy, just basic exposure, set ups, that sort of thing and I assume that programming is the same..
 
Why not start building different web pages (use your imagination!) to learn the ropes? Basically, build a web portfolio! Upload them to sub-directories on your site, and test! Depending on your ISP, it might be possible to test different languages.

Another idea would be to try and build a webshop for your photo's from scratch. Use examples from (for example) phpclasses.org, and try to build it with all the bells and whistles you would like to see as a user. If it's good enough, you might be able to sell it! And that would be a perfect reference...

Studying is another kettle of fish. Would not know what advice to give you there. I haven't even finished my own BSc! Only have a Diploma in Datametrics from UNISA. Got it due to the number of credits I had for BSc! :) Never enrolled for it! And actually, it's only here in SA that companies insist on that piece of paper. Overseas they ask for experience first, and normally you get a 3 month temporary contract to prove yourself.
 
I had thought of that..
Been building personal pages for some time now and also built my business site.

Not a bad idea about the webshop for photos. As you may have noticed I maintain and run a stock library, but something like that would be a good idea. I shall look into it. My ISP allows PHP, so i'll give that a bash before ASP.

What I'm looking to do here is gain some experience so I can then take that overseas with me when I leave next year...

Thanks for the advice.. Must admit, I'm getting rather dispondent about making a living here.. Empty promises, the lack of punctuallity when paying invoices, things like that.. So it's good to hear some constructive advice.. Not that the advice given here already isn't constructive, but you know what I mean..
 
schitz011 said:
So what would be the best way then to gain some experience given that companies don't exactly hand out 'come get some experience' flyers? :(
Sounds like programming is much like photography, you can acheive fair results without knowing too much about the nuts and bolts, but if you really want to be good at it, you need to learn the basics back to front. I'm asuming when you mention PHP and learning the easy way you are refering to using an Editor for PHP programming? Back in the day when I first learnt HTML I did most of the coding on notepad and it certainly helped me better understand the language..

What would be the best way to go about gaining experience in PHP, ASP, .NET and all the rest? Books? Websites? Plain old watching people code?
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There are thousands of freelance websites out there. start with one of them, and try and get as many projects as you can.
 
schitz011 said:
Freshy-ZN -

Thanks. I agree with you regarding the ratio of job seekers to actual jobs... Fortunatly I'm in a position right now where I can afford to take a lower paying job just for the experience. I'm moving to the UK next year and want to get some work experience under my belt so I will stand a better chance of actually getting a job in web dev/design..

See your also a BF2 player.. keep an eye out for me (chuckstar_za) also need help! :)
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Haven't read through everything here - got dinner on the go!

If your coming over to the UK, then you best really decide which direction you want to go with, there's three main disciplines :-

1. Web Designer - Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash and strong design skills

2. Web Developer - CSS2, XHTML, Javascript, basic CGI/Database skills (Php/Asp.net etc.)

3. Coder - this falls kind of under Web Developer, Asp.net is big over here, PHP following close behind. Whatever skills, you need to be able to work with databases big time, the competition is tough, but the pay is high and there's plenty of opportunity.


I'm currently in category 2, working toward 3, although I have my eye on 1 as well :D

Getting in the door is tough, you MUST sell yourself VERY specifically, because the roles here are clearly defined.

Your best bet is to look at the job market over here, this is the place to look :-

http://www.theitjobboard.co.uk/

Take a look at what they want and work from there.

I've been working as a web dev for coming on 4 months and it's been good, you can learn LOTs over here. Many companies are very big on Accessibility and Web Standards.

The biggest thing is FORGET about old style HTML, put tables out of your mind - aside from CGI / Database stuff, get your CSS2 skills up to date, not just for one browser, but for all, which includes :-

Internet Explorer 5.5 (this may hopefully die soon, we can only hope)
Internet Explorer 6
Firefox for PC and Mac
Safari

IOW, you have to make sure your code is accessible, they are REALLY strict on that over here, which is good.
 
I am well versed in web development, having experience in ASP, PHP, Coldfusion, .NET, Java (Struts & JSF).

If your intention is to do basic sites (i.e. static pages with a bit of database interaction, some forms etc) then languages such as php, coldfusion, asp etc should be fine.

For large projects (web applications and complicated sites) you are better off with a mature language such as .NET or something Java based (Struts or JSF).

My experience with large scale projects:
The problem with languages such as php and coldfusion is that they lack structure and require extensive upfront planning and implementation of your own framework. I worked on a coldfusion web application for 2 years (part of a team of 7). The language is very restrictive, full of quirks and limitations. Most of my time was spent building a decent framework (fusebox is a joke), overcoming scope quirks and other issues.

Nowdays I work exclusively in Java (mostly JSF - JavaServer Faces). I've found that using JSF I can implement complicated functionality very quickly and safely. Furthermore maintenance is much easier and the lifespan of the application is increased.

Where do you want to be in 10 years?
IMHO PHP & Coldfusion are fad languages. Learning something like Java or .NET will jump start your career, and later you can easily move into programming positions - as these languages carry weight amongst the programming community. With Java under your belt you could even work for a bank or large corporation.

Don't do what is easiest now, do what is best for the future.
Hope this helps.
 
Going to add in my 5c.

In my time as a Sys Admin our found PHP really suited my needs best.
That was building interaces / API's that would allow non Sys Admins to perform Sys Admin work without ever gaining admin access to the servers.

Very funky language.
 
Thanks for all the info guys.. It's been very helpful and certainly given me much to think about and made things a lot clearer..

One last thing.. I still have my VB course books and Visual Studio CD's is it stil worth learning VB or has it been superceeded?
 
Never throw away stuff you have! :D

Since VB is extensively used around the world, and also is now the macro language inside many other products, it is always worthwhile to learn the basics. Once you're a programmer, switching languages is easy (as mentioned before!) and therefore you might end up using VB sometime in the future! ;)
 
Considering that with .NET Framework, VB has become quite powerful.

Being a delphi programmer, I've recently started using VB.NET 2005, and must say I'm quite impressed with it as it is now.
 
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