Govt cancels Airbus purchase

As with the arms deal gone-sour there would have been local sub-contracts and other offsets which would have swayed the origin decision to buy, rather than simply usefulness or effectiveness (many tunes can be played with this). Also, perhaps it was a way to indirectly pump more money into Denel and attract suitors.

In most countries, military spending is key to maintaining skilled jobs and strategic capabilities. There is a case for investing in this way to reap the benefits in the future, but it is not for the faint-hearted (more for the foolhardy:)). Another advantage of this kind of public spending (assuming offsets) is that it is not channeled through municipalities and government departments, only to be squandered and syphoned-off, and what is actually spent going to poorly conceived and executed projects. The offsets, at least in the most part, are put to productive use through the high-tech companies.
 
As much as I am against war etc, I think SA needs to develop it's local arms industry. Why can't we build suitable aircraft domestically? I know Denel is in a world of hell, but they have had notable successes through the years so I think that as a country we are more than capable. Plus, government would recover 28% of expenses through tax. We should be exporting our variants of aircraft like the c130 to other African countries, rather than having them rely on American or European suppliers.
 
NoLimit said:
As with the arms deal gone-sour there would have been local sub-contracts and other offsets which would have swayed the origin decision to buy, rather than simply usefulness or effectiveness (many tunes can be played with this). Also, perhaps it was a way to indirectly pump more money into Denel and attract suitors.

In most countries, military spending is key to maintaining skilled jobs and strategic capabilities. There is a case for investing in this way to reap the benefits in the future, but it is not for the faint-hearted (more for the foolhardy:)). Another advantage of this kind of public spending (assuming offsets) is that it is not channeled through municipalities and government departments, only to be squandered and syphoned-off, and what is actually spent going to poorly conceived and executed projects. The offsets, at least in the most part, are put to productive use through the high-tech companies.
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In first world countries yes.
 
hyperian said:
As much as I am against war etc, I think SA needs to develop it's local arms industry. Why can't we build suitable aircraft domestically? I know Denel is in a world of hell, but they have had notable successes through the years so I think that as a country we are more than capable. Plus, government would recover 28% of expenses through tax. We should be exporting our variants of aircraft like the c130 to other African countries, rather than having them rely on American or European suppliers.
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These successes you mention are really joint ventures and copies. Rooivalk, Cheetah, etc etc.
 
alf101 said:
Can't remember where rooivalk came from...
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denel_AH-2_Rooivalk#Development
Development

The Rooivalk project began in early 1984 under the auspices of the Atlas Aircraft Corporation, a predecessor of Denel Aviation. Faced with the increasingly conventional nature of the South African Border War, the South African Defence Force recognised the need for a dedicated attack helicopter and accordingly set along the process of developing a suitable aircraft.

The Atlas XH-1 Alpha was the first prototype to emerge from the program. It was developed from an Aérospatiale Alouette III airframe, retaining that helicopter's engine and dynamic components, but replacing the original cockpit with a stepped tandem one, adding a 20 mm cannon on the nose and converting the undercarriage to tail-dragger configuration. The XH-1 first flew on 3 February 1985. The results were ultimately good enough to convince Atlas and the SAAF that the concept was feasible, opening the door for the development of the AH-2 Rooivalk.

During the AH-2's development it was decided to base the aircraft on the dynamic components of the Aérospatiale Super Puma,[3] a larger and more powerful helicopter. These components were already used on the Atlas Oryx, a local upgrade and modification of the Aérospatiale Puma.[1]
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I reckon the Rooivalk is pretty much a South African design,a proudly SA product which is why they still have to spent lots of money to get it right.

The Cheetah was build with lots of help from the Israelis, in fact there is a rumor that there are more Cheetah C aircraft than we had Mirage III's... But the Cheetah worked, it didn't do too badly in exercises with the USAAF's F15Es and the Luftwaffe's Tornados and on its phase out function there there was almost more Cheetahs available than pilots.

One area of the SAAF that is overlooked is the transport line. The SAAF have a couple of overworked C-130s, a couple of CASA 212 and 235s and of course the trusty Turbo Daks. Whenever the SAAF have to move somewhere, for whatever reason, there are never enough transport aircraft available. (BTW, this is not a currently problem, just ask the people who served on the border, while there were enough aircraft to get you to the border, there was never enough to bring you back home again.) Transport are just not considered exciting, like fighters or choppers.

The A400M was not part of the original arms deal package. Most people was surprised when the initial announcement was made that we are going to get A400ms. But it would have been a very nice aircraft, certainly something to be proud of. Now the SAAF is stuck again, with no long range, heavy lift capability.
 
RaFi said:
I reckon the Rooivalk is pretty much a South African design,a proudly SA product which is why they still have to spent lots of money to get it right.
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I would not say that, there is a lot of copying from other vendors. Post 1994 Denel or whatever they were called at the time were actually in ***** street as they had illegally used components/designs from international vendors without licensing. The avionics in the rooivalk & cheetah etc is actually a pile of crap (very dated compared to what's out there), one of the reasons why they could not sell the rooivalk to other countries.
 
While the Rooivalk's avionics is definitely outdated, the Cheetah C's avionics is still considered to be classified. From "hearsay" I understand that the Cheetah C's avionics can be compared to the F-16 Block 20/50, some claim even better. One more reason why Israel have a say to which country the Cheetahs may be sold.
 
RaFi said:
While the Rooivalk's avionics is definitely outdated, the Cheetah C's avionics is still considered to be classified. From "hearsay" I understand that the Cheetah C's avionics can be compared to the F-16 Block 20/50, some claim even better. One more reason why Israel have a say to which country the Cheetahs may be sold.
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Dunno about the C's but lets just say I saw things and dunno how 'classified' they were. Don't remember jack today though. Don't dispute Israeli involvement. That Israeli technology probably has US roots hence the hush hush.

Interesting reading, http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles14/year-end.html
 
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ponder said:
Dunno about the C's but lets just say I saw things and dunno how 'classified' they were. Don't remember jack today though. Don't dispute Israeli involvement. That Israeli technology probably has US roots hence the hush hush.

Interesting reading, http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles14/year-end.html
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Very interesting article.
South African airframes were used for the D and E range and Israeli Mirage III airframes for the C-model.
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Basically what I said earlier.

Of course, a year later and Ecuador still haven't decided to buy the Cheetahs They are all rotting in the sun around AFB Makhado.

One thing though, everybody is complaining about the Hawk being the second tier in the route to become a fighter pilot. But keep in mind, it is cheaper to operate a Hawk than a Gripen. So, while a pilot would be able to fly the Gripen directly after he/she qualified on the Astra, there is still a lot of training to be done before he/she can be called a fighter pilot. Basically all the training will be done on the cheaper Hawk, with the result that a pilot can do a simple conversion course on the Gripen and be combat ready. But yes, there were cheaper and other options and the Cheetahs still had a lot of life left.
 
RaFi said:
Very interesting article.

Basically what I said earlier.

Of course, a year later and Ecuador still haven't decided to buy the Cheetahs They are all rotting in the sun around AFB Makhado.

One thing though, everybody is complaining about the Hawk being the second tier in the route to become a fighter pilot. But keep in mind, it is cheaper to operate a Hawk than a Gripen. So, while a pilot would be able to fly the Gripen directly after he/she qualified on the Astra, there is still a lot of training to be done before he/she can be called a fighter pilot. Basically all the training will be done on the cheaper Hawk, with the result that a pilot can do a simple conversion course on the Gripen and be combat ready. But yes, there were cheaper and other options and the Cheetahs still had a lot of life left.
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Most of the people at Atlas etc, who built / designed the Cheetahs and other weapons have left or took packages when the new Gov took over.
Would've been ideal to keep going with the Cheetahs.
 
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