Grass not always greener

I lived in the UK for 2 years, year one with a friend - in her house...not ideal but at least i was working, 2nd year i moved to wales - oh what a difference, everything is cheaper and the people are much nicer than londeners!! Seriously go check it out, we have friends that have immigrated to wales - the love it there. i loved it there. London is fun to visit but not live there. Its only 3 hours on the train.
 
Thanks for the post OP - really good to hear your story. I've been in London for about the same time, just over 1.5 years now. I've had similar experiences with the tube, but for work, I chose to live less than 20 minutes (tube ride) from the office and I try to avoid rush hour.

The difference between our situations is that I came over because I had secured employment here prior to leaving SA. I've been promoted twice in 1.5 years here, and now earn enough to live a very comfortable life with the family. I've stopped converting everything I buy to ZAR!

In the 1.5 years I've been here, two other international telco's have interviewed and offered me employment. I was never interested in changing companies, but it's always good to know what your rate and demand is like in a 'new' market.

While I do enjoy life in London, my preference would be to settle somewhere either a bit further out (like other forumites) or to move elsewhere in the EU...

Hope you land a great job soon man... If you're in telco, drop me a PM.
 
loc said:
I've been living in London for about 1,5 years and would like to share some experiences and things I've learned

Firstly, I've eaten a lot of humble pie and realised that while there may be different grass, it isn't always greener. I was definitely one of the people that couldn't wait to leave SA and said I'd never miss it or go back. Now I battle daily with if I should return or not. This might make some people angry, I know plenty of people who would love to emigrate but don't have the means. I would say be sure you know what you are looking for before you beside to move

Some of the main things I thought before moving:

- You don't waste money on things that should be covered by taxes, like medical aid and private security.

This is true, although you are taxed quite heavily for it. However, what will really kill you in London is the rent. If you're a single person you're looking at at least £800 to rent one room in a flat in a decent, central area. Yes you can get room for much cheaper further out, if you want to spend 1.5 hours commuting each way. It's not unusual to be spending 50% of your salary on rent, although this mostly applies to people around 20-30 years old I'm sure. You do get some people in their 40's still flat sharing though. For someone like me who previously had a whole house in SA and likes privacy this is very hard

- You save money not needing a car/insurance/maintenance

This is true, and London public transport is amazing until you use it every day. The tube at rush hour isn't fun, and wait till you just want to go home and watch 4 tubes go past because they are all too full to get on. It is, for the most part, reliable though. If you live somewhere where you catch a overground train, you will soon become accustomed to the many delays and train cancellations that will leave you unable to get home without a 2 hour bus detour.

And guess what, there are strikes in the UK too. The rail unions aren't shy to strike, and when there's no tubes you still have to get to work somehow. It's also not cheap. A monthly ticket will cost about £145 for Zone 1-3, all so you can be absolutely crushed on a train, if it does show up. Combine that with your £800 rent and you've spent close to a grand already

-Jobs, there is a good job market in London. What you will realise it that there are also millions of people in London, and no matter what industry you work in there are probably a few hundred people applying for every job you do. I have friends in a few different professions and it can take 6 months to find a new job even if you are well qualified. Unless you really stand out, you are a small fish in a very big pond. While I had a very good job in SA, I haven't been able to find anything at that level again.

- Lifestlye, probably the biggest one for me. You might think you'll have alot more disposable income, but after rent, travel and and savings, there isn't as much as you'd think. Groceries are cheap and their are plenty of specials, which is good. I find going out prohibitively expensive though. It's easy to spend £50-80 on drinks in one night if you go to a bar/club. Restaurants can have good deals, but try avoid drinking out too much. It's hard to find places you could make a braai if you aren't lucky enough to have a garden, and hosting is hard when in a flatshare so you end up going out

I'd say think carefully about what you want before deciding to move. If you want a house with a garden and your own car, these things are possible but certainly not in London. If you're young, don't mind flatsharing, and want to have explore then maybe it's right for you
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All nice and well, but what are your chances of being victim of the violent crime there? Ever feel unsafe?
 
The Voice
Much like I experienced my stay in the UK for 2 years. I lived in Brighton and visited London for weekend concerts/parties etc. Was an absolute blast. Never ever felt threatened or intimidated. The summers are wonderful.
 
It's very similar in Australia so it seems to come with first world territory.

* You are always going to have to measure cost of rent vs commute. I've chosen to do a 1 hour commute to work and so my rent costs me 40% of my salary. This is also because I need a garden for my pets. I could of knocked it down to 30% possibly and lived in a small apartment otherwise.
* Public transport is reliable here and haven't come across any strikes, they are upgrading a lot of the railways so there are disruptions but luckily I use tram/bus so not a problem for me.
* Eating out and drinking is extortionist. Sin tax is high so instead of paying $2 for a beer in SA you pay $10-$15 dollars here. They also have to pay min wage to staff so costs are highly inflated when going out. Same thing with take out which is generally around the $10-$15 mark per person. I went out this weekend and found a place having a special on 1.7l of beer for $29 which was amazing. Small brandy and coke cost $20.
* Groceries are about on par with SA save meat, which is generally around $30 per kg. In SA I spent about R500-R600 a week on meat, veg and luxuries, now I spend $150 a week and that doesn't stretch far with meat (beef and lamb). You can get many chicken deals though.
* Taxes are high and if you don't get private medical insurance there are penalties with up to 100% loading and medicare levies which need to be investigated carefully when making the move.
* Public transport may be good but you still have to pay for it. Costs me $150 a month for a month pass.

All in all though it is far safer and less hassles than SA. Definitely worth the move and don't regret it, just trying to rebuild my financial position.
 
Same story here from when I was a child. We immigrated to NZ in 1993. He went into practice with a doctor in a small town close to Napier. We were from Springbok, so the small town did not make a difference to us. We did not last very long. They were kind enough to organize a rental house for us that came with furniture, but compared to it, our house in Springbok was a palace! A day after arriving my dad's partner took us to the car dealership so he could buy a car. First question my dad asked when we got there was "where are the BMW's? - I dont see any???" He only drove BMW. The partner and the guy helping us at the dealership said no ways. Here you can only afford a BMW if you are really REALLY well off! We ended up with a second hand Bluebird. My dad sulked for days. Then of course there was my mom, her first question to my dad's partners wife was where can she find a maid. Of course the answer was ...."uh uh, no maids here, you do it yourself". We had a live in maid in Springbok so ja, that did not go down very well.

Me and my sis really could not stand the schools. Completely different from what we were used to in SA. We would end up back at home crying. One day we got home from school and my dad was already home. He told us to pack up our belongings and be ready in a hour. We have a little prop plane waiting at the airstrip to fly us to Napier, from there a over nighter and then to Christ Church, and then from there, Auckland, then Perth and then Joburg. We are leaving this place. We were walking around the airport in Perth waiting for our flight and then we saw the Flying Springbok outside the window being fueled etc. OMG, I think we all got pretty emotional at that time. Be it from being very tired or just to see the plane that is taking us back home. I dont know, but it was awesome. When we landed back here all my dad had to his name was his BMW which is friend have not sold yet. The grin on his face when he got back into his BMW was a great sight.

So ja, I do think people need to think carefully....especially if there are kids. Kids must be very very young when you go over. Will help them adapt more easily I think to the new schools there.
 
If push factors are your only motivation then there is a good chance that you are going to struggle.

We had the choice between the UK and Australia and chose Australia since it offered us the opportunity to live the lifestyle we wanted to live.

The move has been incredibly difficult. Australian work culture is not all that pleasant and we definitely miss a things back in South Africa.

You need to be able to adapt and be resilient though. You also need to be willing to find the right place to live in your new country. In South Africa if you love Cape Town and hate Joburg you are going to be miserable in Joburg too.
 
^^vampire^^ said:
It's very similar in Australia so it seems to come with first world territory.

* You are always going to have to measure cost of rent vs commute. I've chosen to do a 1 hour commute to work and so my rent costs me 40% of my salary. This is also because I need a garden for my pets. I could of knocked it down to 30% possibly and lived in a small apartment otherwise.
* Public transport is reliable here and haven't come across any strikes, they are upgrading a lot of the railways so there are disruptions but luckily I use tram/bus so not a problem for me.
* Eating out and drinking is extortionist. Sin tax is high so instead of paying $2 for a beer in SA you pay $10-$15 dollars here. They also have to pay min wage to staff so costs are highly inflated when going out. Same thing with take out which is generally around the $10-$15 mark per person. I went out this weekend and found a place having a special on 1.7l of beer for $29 which was amazing. Small brandy and coke cost $20.
* Groceries are about on par with SA save meat, which is generally around $30 per kg. In SA I spent about R500-R600 a week on meat, veg and luxuries, now I spend $150 a week and that doesn't stretch far with meat (beef and lamb). You can get many chicken deals though.
* Taxes are high and if you don't get private medical insurance there are penalties with up to 100% loading and medicare levies which need to be investigated carefully when making the move.
* Public transport may be good but you still have to pay for it. Costs me $150 a month for a month pass.

All in all though it is far safer and less hassles than SA. Definitely worth the move and don't regret it, just trying to rebuild my financial position.
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I suppose this is all relative to what you are used to, when comparing median salaries in NZ/Aus vs here in SA and then weight it by average increase and CPI my potential position would be better overseas. I think it does help I'm young and my frame of reference when it comes to areas I like to live in as well as cost % of salary spend.

I suppose starting out again is pretty hard, especially if you aren't young!

Edit: My cals take into account my family combined income (Wife and myself). Her skills would be more highly paid in a developed country
 
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WOW, quite an eye-opener indeed.
My one collegeue left to back to New Zealand again. He lived there for 7 yers before coming to SA. He was miserable is SA. So I guess to each his own hey
 
Experiences away from the country of your birth are absolutely relative. It also depends on the motivation behind leaving.

I lived in Scotland for a year as a student and although it was initially hard to settle into the culture after a couple of months it was a fantastic and eye-opening experience. It certainly did help that it is an Anglophone country (but beware the Glaswegian accent :P).

I am currently in the Netherlands and have been here for about 6 months. It has been a little harder to integrate - mostly because of the difficulty of trying to adapt to Dutch culture. They are very direct and for a Saffa it might come off as being downright rude. It also helps to learn and to embrace the language. Knowing Afrikaans does give you an advantage.

One needs to realise that wherever you might find yourself outside of South Africa that it is not South Africa. If you keep on comparing your current experience and situation to SA you will be sorely disappointed through focusing on the negatives. Embrace the wonderful opportunity that living outside your comfort zone presents you with.
 
I have tried the overseas thing. Not for me I am afraid.
Despite the problems, this country does offer the best kind of lifestyle there is.

NZ is one of the worse places to move to. And in case you are wondering, that door is now shutting on South Africans- I know this because my relatives live there, and we have tried unsuccessfully to get their immediate family over. They have not said it, but the writing is on the wall they have had enough of us. Australia will eventually follow suit.

And before you think its nice and wonderful in AUS, think again. I have a close friend in Mornington Peninsula. He says my internet connection at home rocks, compared to his. Over there, Telstra is worse than Telkom, and YouTube uploads are very difficult to do, because of their great firewall and nanny state spy machine. You can also forget about keeping a car once it gets to a certain age. Want to have a good old SA style braai in your yard? Forget it, you could be fined, especially in the dry season. And you cry when its 32 degrees here.. Try 41-43 degrees C in the hottest summer months. Many South Africans hate aircons... what are you going to do there, when you need one to survive?

So before you even consider this, remember, you've really got it good here. I am well-traveled too, I would say that if I really get forced out of here, i would settle in Asia, that would probably be the closest I can get to living in SA even by a smidgeon.
 
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Randy_The_Squirrel said:
I have tried the overseas thing. Not for me I am afraid.
Despite the problems, this country does offer the best kind of lifestyle there is.

NZ is one of the worse places to move to. And in case you are wondering, that door is now shutting on South Africans- I know this because my relatives live there, and we have tried unsuccessfully to get their immediate family over. They have not said it, but the writing is on the wall they have had enough of us. Australia will eventually follow suit.

And before you think its nice and wonderful in AUS, think again. I have a close friend in Mornington Peninsula. He says my internet connection at home rocks, compared to his. Over there, Telstra is worse than Telkom, and YouTube uploads are very difficult to do, because of their great firewall and nanny state spy machine. You can also forget about keeping a car once it gets to a certain age. Want to have a good old SA style braai in your yard? Forget it, you could be fined, especially in the dry season. And you cry when its 32 degrees here.. Try 41-43 degrees C in the hottest summer months. Many South Africans hate aircons... what are you going to do there, when you need one to survive?

So before you even consider this, remember, you've really got it good here. I am well-traveled too, I would say that if I really get forced out of here, i would settle in Asia, that would probably be the closest I can get to living in SA even by a smidgeon.
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Why do you not like NZ? I have a few friends who have been over there for between between 2 and 10 years, and LOVING it. Could be their frame of reference, as they are all in their 20's
 
F1ve_Claw said:
Why do you not like NZ? I have a few friends who have been over there for between between 2 and 10 years, and LOVING it. Could be their frame of reference, as they are all in their 20's
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Personally its not for me because its too laid-back, it reminds me of that rural dorpie in the free state. There's not much to do, and the other factors mentioned in posts above pertaining to lifestyle and culture changes don't fit with me.
 
Regarding Ockie's post... That was in 1993. Our economy was still relatively valuable. Now it's worthless. If you go over now, and you're worse off than here, you'd have to be doing something wrong.

And don't even get me started on school/education in its current state. Only masochists would prefer our current education situation.

Regarding house sizes, I assume that can't be any worse either. We paid 690k here for what's basically a glorified flat. Plus, you will sleep much better there at night, as they have an actual working police service, something we haven't had for many years. Here, when I'm not with my wife, I am worried all the time if she is safe - hijacking/house break-ins are are a thing here.

Also, their economy is on the up, ours is tanking more and more every year - always feels like it's on a knife edge.
 
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