Grass not always greener

I've heard good things about Eastern Europe. People are very friendly, mostly and there is some stunning scenery.

Off-topic, but I feel like there's a massive conspiracy to hide Eastern Europe away from South Africans. When I first met my wife I had no frigging clue about anything about Romania, and had to google it just to discover something to talk about. A bit more introspection into why this was, and I realised that we'd never been taught about Eastern Europe at High School in the nineties/noughties... I knew more about the moutain ranges in Western Europe (thanks Geography HG) than I knew about Romania. Further investigation of the travel books section in all South African bookstores confirmed my suspicions: you go into any Exclusive Books you want (and I've looked in a great deal) and you'll see that the books always go directly from Portugal to Rome, without any hint of a missing country in the middle. It's fine for me, coz it's like my little secret, but one day I'll find some way to open for South Africans' eyes to what Romania has to offer.
 
Off-topic, but I feel like there's a massive conspiracy to hide Eastern Europe away from South Africans. When I first met my wife I had no frigging clue about anything about Romania, and had to google it just to discover something to talk about. A bit more introspection into why this was, and I realised that we'd never been taught about Eastern Europe at High School in the nineties/noughties... I knew more about the moutain ranges in Western Europe (thanks Geography HG) than I knew about Romania. Further investigation of the travel books section in all South African bookstores confirmed my suspicions: you go into any Exclusive Books you want (and I've looked in a great deal) and you'll see that the books always go directly from Portugal to Rome, without any hint of a missing country in the middle. It's fine for me, coz it's like my little secret, but one day I'll find some way to open for South Africans' eyes to what Romania has to offer.
Back in the day Eastern Europe meant communism, a.k.a. "die Rooi Gevaar". We weren't taught about it in depth for a reason, in case any of us had ideas of defecting and becoming comrades, I reckon.

I only really know the following about Romania: insanely hot women (sometimes), bag thieves and gypsies (most already living in London under bridges and in Hyde Park), and my personal favourite, Vlad the Impaler.
 
Back in the day Eastern Europe meant communism, a.k.a. "die Rooi Gevaar". We weren't taught about it in depth for a reason, in case any of us had ideas of defecting and becoming comrades, I reckon.

I only really know the following about Romania: insanely hot women (sometimes), bag thieves and gypsies (most already living in London under bridges and in Hyde Park), and my personal favourite, Vlad the Impaler.

Say, that's a good point I hadn't considered before The Voice, I think you're probably right! Funny thing is of course, the Romanians hated communism too ... did you know that they ended up killing the communist president and his wife during the big revolution in the 1989? Probably not, I didn't know it either until I read up on Romanian history lol.

Speak to Romanians about gypsies and you'll get an earful about how gypsies aren't 'real romanians', and how Romanians hate the fact that their good name is getting tarred overseas by the criminal actions of the gypsies. Also they're not fans of Hungarians, for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me but probably make as much sense as racism anywhere (i.e. none actually).

That's actually an on-topic point here: different countries have their own versions of the same old human issues (greed, corruption, fear and hate-mongering), but that's just the back-drop to your own individual life. If you're an unhappy person, you're gonna be unhappy everywhere.
 
I've heard good things about Eastern Europe. People are very friendly, mostly and there is some stunning scenery.
Croatia apparently has some of the most amazing beaches in Europe, few waves though so surfing isn't really a thing which is sad.
 
Hungary is also worth checking out if those countries appeal to you. Beer is cheaper than water.

That could mean that water is bloody expensive :D
Actually - just came from Zambia where the Radisson Blu charged R75 for a glass of OJ and beer was around R25-R30.
 
Yea, sounds like London situation is pretty much like Amsterdam when it comes to housing and commuting. I ended up moving outside of Amsterdam, living in a "traditional" little town in the netherlands and commuting in every day. The rush hour trains are almost always jam packed, i normally stand half of my trip (20 of the 40mins). However, i do pay significantly less rent and actually have peace and quiet and not having the entire world peer into my windows (amsterdammers have some strange privacy concepts, or they just gave up on privacy to live there).

It still pretty much takes me 1 hour to get to work door-to-door, but that includes train + cycling. I even got me a "vouwfiets" aka "folding bike" (google it), man i have no idea what i will do in SA without these things . I love the mobile/freedom all this public transport is giving me, and quite refreshing cycling to get places (as opposed to cycling as a sport) . Yes, trains are crazy overcrowded, but it has made me so much more open and willing to "just go there" . You can get anywhere in the netherlands (probably parts of germany/belgium too) within 2-3 hours with local public transport.

That said, the dutch don't hold back in complaining having to pay to stand on a train (the massive rail company is often getting a ton of flack for delays or overcrowded trains). It definitely puts things a little in perspective, even i find it annoying when the trains are so full, but then i find myself taking the same train at midnight after drinking way too much beer and thinking how i ever got by without this..

As for dutch culture and all that. If you live/work in Amsterdam, chances are you'll actually struggle to find serious 100% dutch people to speak dutch to. When i came across i told myself i would get some dutch friends and learn all the local stuff without getting stuck on the expat-bus. Six months later my friends are everything except dutch and everyone speaks english (in all the accents you can think of). It seems like alot of the younger generation dutch switch to english because they actually like speaking english, not because they are doing you a favour.

Since i don't live in Amsterdam, i do encounter more of the "old school" dutch people and admittedly they can be a bit annoying (i would almost say Amsterdam is like a seperate country in contrast). I wouldn't say the dutch are unfriendly exactly, outside of Amsterdam they are still very conservative and religious...painfully so. The town i live in, it shuts down completely on a sunday....yes not even 1 freaking shop open in the entire town (i remember this setup in SA when i was still in school in 80s/90s) . You forgot to get some bread or meat to braai on sunday? Tough luck, you will have to travel to the bigger cities and buy it there (Amsterdam/Utrecht etc are all fortunately 24-7 type of cities). During the week shops close at 6pm sharp and shops don't seem to care whether you still got a full trolley ,they kick you out the store. For us Saffers that will be shockingly rude, but here it's their way of saying "just go home and do family stuff now, tomorrow is another day". The dutch still seem very traditional when it comes to working hours, hence why there's alot of jobs for foreigners willing to work outside of the traditional family-work framework the dutch seems to have gotten way too used to (the dutch got a lot of safety nets, almost wellfare-state like).

The costs and all that, i think the biggest costs here are rent + travel , i have found everything else dirt cheap in comparison (even my medical aid is "only" a 100EUR a month, which incidentally is the same i paid for Discovery in SA !) . If you own a car you'll pay through your teeth in taxes/parking/garage (assuming you even get a spot where you live). So it is kinda amusing to note, since i no longer pay any car costs, i end up having more money to spend on "going places".

Internet/media costs i have found it a lot cheaper than SA. They tend to bundle everything here, so i pay 55eur for the equivalent of DSTV -and- uncapped 60mpbs internet - and- fixed line -and- mobile contract (with about 4gb 4g data) all rolled into one. You then get a few perks like free spotify and HBO thrown in if you have the full package. That, even converting directly to rands, are cheaper than anything i saw in SA by far, even if i end up watching Netflix.
 
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Nice insight into life across the Channel!

I noticed that a lot, if not most, of the educated foreigners that come here had a very good grasp English before they even arrived here, so I can only assume they all take it as a second language at school or something.

Folding bikes are very popular here, too. Keen to get one, but they're way more expensive than normal ones.

Another great thing about living here is much lower prices because of competition. Want TV? Sky, BT and Virgin will actively undercut each other to get your money, also throwing in extras to make the deals better for TV, phone, mobile and broadband packages. Same thing with ISP's and mobile phone companies. In SA, DSTV, Telkom and the handful of mobile operators do what they want and charge what they want.
 
Disclosure: I haven't read all the posts, only the first page and last.

Having lived in the UK for a long time (>9 years) and then made the decision to come back 'home' (wasn't forced) ... I am constantly torn between 'staying' here and going back agreeing with the OP that it's difficult over there. Eating out was a luxury there. Thankfully, I stayed and worked 25 miles west of London so had a 'big' house to rent (3 stories, 4 rooms, 4 bathrooms but still a matchbox by SA standards) for the same price as a small little flat in the central London. In addition, we had our own cars (mines, Company) so it was easier than most people. Hardly used public transport.

We submitted an OTP to buy a house near Sandton a few weeks ago, and I was looking for every reason to 'cancel' it even if I had to pay the estate agent's fees. My SO is adamant on going back. She doesn't like it here and as a medically trained person is annoyed that her salary in 'UK' terms is less than what we she was making as receptionist why writing her UK medical registration exams. Of course, what she doesn't accept is that she works part time here (hah hah).

However, what makes me hesitant about SA, is the government and everything political related. When I got back, I never listened to local news stations or radio stations - I decided to live in a bubble. But reality is what it is. While I am confident, that with DA, making small steps towards progress, the rot is so great that we may not recover. You look at the **** like what happens at the SABC, nuclear deal, selling off oil reserves, there's a lot of fat greedy pigs in the trough.

What I appreciated about United Kingdom with it's myriad laws, is that no one was above the law. A minister went to jail, because he got his wife to take his demerit points for speeding! On the flip side, in the UK, I was constantly worried that I was breaking some law (there's too many) but in ZA, there's too few. I wish we could have the MOT system and a few other things over here.

Progress is happening slowly which is positive nonetheless. I think of the Home Affairs where kudos have to be given for sorting their **** out, and now , we get all documents within 6 days! Medical care (which does a cost an arm and a leg excuse the pun) is 100 times better here than in the UK. I waited 6 months to get an MRI - the NHS is something I never wish to deal with again and I had BUPA over there.

So then, why have I decided to buy this house then? Because even with the **** and uncertainty, we lead a 100% better quality of life here and with a kid, it's nice to be near family. BBBEE, etc is a concern. My SO has given me an ultimatum of re-assessing in a few years and I am happy with that. The fear I have like most people in SA, is that whatever we have in ZA, translates to nothing in other currencies.

My advice to anybody considering leaving or returning ... moving has a human cost. Be prepared to write off a year of your life getting acquainted with all the rules and settling in. And you need to give yourself time to adapt. This is why you need to give yourself a year. Most of all, make the move if you think it's going to have a positive effect on your life. If you do move, and it doesn't work out you can normally always come/go back. It will not be easy and there's no shame in it - at least you can say you tried which is better than always having the question/doubt (which always ends festering as regret) telling yourself you didn't do it.
 
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Medical care (which does a cost an arm and a leg excuse the pun) is 100 times better here than in the UK. I waited 6 months to get an MRI - the NHS is something I never wish to deal with again and I had BUPA over there.

Something funny there. Did you actually have a medical need for the MRI? I know of 2 people who've had an MRI in the last year, one with BUPA coverage who saw the specialist on the Monday and had the MRI on the Wednesday or Thursday.

The other (through the NHS) went from a GP diagnosis to seeing a specialist Consultant, to having an MRI and another half dozen tests to having the surgery and being back home in around 5 weeks...

Even the NHS annual report for 2015 lists the average waiting time for an MRI at 2 weeks...

The average (median) waiting time displays a similar trend to the total waiting list and 6+ waits. After a rapid decrease in the first two years leading to the 6 week milestone, the median waiting time has remained stable (Chart 4). The data shows significant increases during December every year, as a result of the increased number of bank holidays and resulting staff shortages.

However, in the last twelve months, the median waiting time has remained stable at around 2.0 weeks, with a high of 2.5 weeks (December 2014) and a low of 1.8 weeks (January 2015).
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...sites/2/2014/09/DWTA-Report-January-20151.pdf
 
Loving this thread. There are many interesting points of view on here, and I feel like I can relate to 90% of them. I am an American who has lived in SA for nearly 9 years. I did my undergrad in the U.S., 2 masters degrees in SA, and now a PhD in Belgium (but still working from SA). Below are my list of pros and cons. They are all relative to each other.

Pros of U.S.:
1. Depending on where you live, it is possible to get a good free public education.
2. Administrative tasks tend to be easier to get done.
3. "Customer is always right" business philosophy means it is nice to be a consumer of goods and services there.
4. Huge, diverse space which means there are plenty of places within country to travel to see new landscapes and culture
5. Good, cheap, fast internet

Cons of U.S.:
1. Extremely corrupt government (e.g. Hillary Clinton makes Zuma look like a saint).
2. Military industrial complex
3. Prison industrial complex
4. Media is increasingly not free
5. No public healthcare system, expensive cost of health care

Pros of South Africa:
1. As many others have said, good quality of life if you are of an educated middle-to-upper socio-economic class
2. Beautiful diverse country with lots of different landscapes and culture
3. Awesome climate
4. Friendly people
5. Fairly good public health care system
6. Good internet banking
7. Many public holidays and a lot more paid vacation days
8. A culture of activism and protest. Many do not like this, but I see it as a sign of freedom, and people who really care about their country and are trying to fight to make it better.

Cons of SA
1. Crime and having to be constantly vigilant
2. Banks
3. Internet

I haven't spent as much time in Belgium as SA and the U.S., but some of some of my cursory observations are that you can have a nice simple (if somewhat bland) lifestyle. Going out to eat at restaurants is exorbitantly expensive. THAT SAID, the people serving you food at restaurants get paid a livable wage (unlike in SA, or even the U.S.). You may not be able to eat out as much or live in as big of a house as in SA, but at least people are a lot more equal. The people who provide you services do not go home to sleep in shacks. I personally would be happy consuming less in life if I knew that the people serving me and making my goods could afford basic necessities. I also do not think it is a coincidence that crime is lower in countries such as Belgium.

The reality is that if we ever want SA to be safer, we have to be willing to give up some privileges, land, money, and pay more for labour.
 
I lived in Manila, Philippines for a while and traveled and worked around SE Asia. I came back because the owner of the company I was working for is a socipath, but that is a story for another day. My hubby and I both secured work in Manila. We moved across, but kept the house and our cars until we felt we were stable. We don't have kids, which I think is important to note. These are my experiences:

Friends and Family
This, to me, was the hardest part of leaving. My hubby and I are very social. I was out or socializing at least 2/3 nights a week in SA. We would work long hours (10 to 14 hours a day on average), and then weekends would come around, and we had no one around to celebrate or do things with. My hubby and I have been together for 11 years. We are happily married. Anyone in a long term relationship will tell you how important it is to have other people in your lives or different interests. We don't have kids, so we only had each other. That was the only good part.

Also, being in a country with support structure is very scary. All sort of "what ifs" would creep into my mind, and if things got really bad, we would have no one to turn to. This can feel very scary.

Culture and Language
Each Asian country has a different culture. Some people will say that Asian culture is all the same, but it's not. The Filipinos are vibrant and friendly people. They love westerners and will treat westerners differently. It was a little bit uncomfortable at times. As a westerner, I would be singled out all the time for property deals or some other sales pitch.

Things did work a lot better than in SA though. I didn't experience any corruption. Traffic is really bad in the Philippines, but I didn't see a single accident, ever. Service was also miles better, and a lot friendlier. I hate to say it, but it felt like there was less contempt.

They try to beautify their cities (with greenery and art) and make them pedestrian friendly. Walking around in the upmarket areas felt very safe, even at 3am in the morning. Their cities are very upbeat and busy at all hours.

Even though the majority of Filipinos speak English, don't assume you will always understand them, or them you. I battled in some situations, and sometimes I think we were all talking and no one was really understanding each other. I generally follow up things up in writing, as it is sometimes clearer that way.

There are many, many Filipinos with degrees. It was astounding actually. Generally, Filipinos are paid very little. Compared to what professionals in SA earn, they earn a pittance. Their cost of living in the more wealthier or upmarket areas is a little more expensive than in SA. Cost of living in their more poorer areas is around the same, except that they travel for 3 hours each way to get to work.

On the flip side, their economy is booming with a 7% growth each year. Everywhere I look or went there were signs of economic growth. I didn't probe too deep, but it seems that most people don't go into too much debt there either. Everyone seemed to drive modest cars and live modestly. However, the economic success was shared with their entire family and extra money always pushed into a family member's business. They really do work together as a family unit.

Lessons Learnt
  • Always make sure you have enough money to return home comfortably. At the very least, have enough money stashed away for a ticket home with a little extra cash for any emergency.
  • Get involved with your Visa application and understand all the small nuances. Never assume your new employer will get it right.
  • The older you are, the harder it is to make friends. Don't assume you will make friends easily. This is going to require a massive effort from your end. Cultural differences also make it difficult.
  • If you have nagging doubts, you should probably listen to them as relocating can get super expensive. Also coming home to no work will add to the cost.
  • Make a plan to work overseas if you are young. The international exposure is great for any young person.
  • Living in Asia was a great experience, but not for me long term. The lifestyle I lived for a while was more like living in Manhattan and I like the opposite. I love my braais and open spaces. I love driving and taking road trips. I couldn't really experience that there. Also, it was harder to make any real connections as making friends was very difficult.
  • Speak to a tax consultant with experience in the region that you are working. Spend a little money upfront to make sure that you have everything covered and understand your obligations.
  • SA does not really have much international exposure in business. We also cannot travel easily. While I was working there, it felt like I was in touch with people from all over the world. I don't get that sense when in SA. Also, average middle class citizens are able to travel to most places in Asia. International travel for South Africans is really expensive compared to their costs.
  • Even with the advances in technology, a big time zone difference makes things very tough. It is inevitable that you will gradually lose contact with friends and family. We promised ourselves and everyone to speak once a week. What eventually happened is that we spoke once every 4 to 6 weeks.
  • I had a strange sense of guilt. I am super close with my sisters and mother. They were crushed I left. It made me feel guilty even though they were super supportive and understand my decision to work abroad. It still didn't change those pangs of guilt. Not everyone will experience it, but it was surprising to me.
  • Our red meat and fresh produce is really some of the best in the world. I did battle with the new foods and products. Even a small change to my coffee made me grumpy. Their milk also tasted very processed.
  • If you are keeping your bank account(s) in SA, give Power of Attorney to someone you trust. I have seen people lose their cards and have had people in SA run around on their behalf.
 
Agree with some of these including:
Pros of U.S.:
1. Depending on where you live, it is possible to get a good free public education.
2. Administrative tasks tend to be easier to get done.
3. "Customer is always right" business philosophy means it is nice to be a consumer of goods and services there.
4. Huge, diverse space which means there are plenty of places within country to travel to see new landscapes and culture
5. Good, cheap, fast internet

Cons of U.S.:
2. Military industrial complex
3. Prison industrial complex
4. Media is increasingly not free
5. No public healthcare system, expensive cost of health care

Pros of South Africa:
1. As many others have said, good quality of life if you are of an educated middle-to-upper socio-economic class
2. Beautiful diverse country with lots of different landscapes and culture
3. Awesome climate
4. Friendly people
6. Good internet banking
7. Many public holidays and a lot more paid vacation days (**yes and no on this one - similar number of public holidays and certainly more benefits for sick days but more paid vacation? 15 a year?)

Cons of SA
1. Crime and having to be constantly vigilant
2. Banks
3. Internet

What I don't agree with are:
Cons of U.S.:
1. Extremely corrupt government (e.g. Hillary Clinton makes Zuma look like a saint).

You lost me there :p
I have a friend who worked for Hillary for many years, I'd be interested to hear your POV and give him a heads up :D

Pros of South Africa:
5. Fairly good public health care system

Really??


Cons of South Africa:
8. A culture of activism and protest. Many do not like this, but I see it as a sign of freedom, and people who really care about their country and are trying to fight to make it better.

I doubt many of those who are protesting and call themselves 'activists' are actually just that. The loudest especially. They're mostly misguided individuals who want attention.
 
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Another naivete that South Africans have, is that we're so employable overseas... Hahahahaha :D
Even with skills you're a small fish in a big ass pond, it will take you a long while to get a cushy job like you had back in SA.

Finding a job overseas is quite easy actually. And every job interview that you go for, you actually have a fair shake at getting. Unlike the AA jobs of SA.

In the first world, there are a lot more people of deserving quality and expertise, that might be vying for the same job. So the market is more competitive than SA. But if you are competitive, you will succeed.

If you or people you know, found it difficult to get "cushy" jobs that you/they felt they "deserved". Perhaps it is simply an indication that in a skill starved country like SA, they are above average, but in the big bad 1st world countries, they are middle of the pack at best.
 
Something funny there. Did you actually have a medical need for the MRI? I know of 2 people who've had an MRI in the last year, one with BUPA coverage who saw the specialist on the Monday and had the MRI on the Wednesday or Thursday.

The other (through the NHS) went from a GP diagnosis to seeing a specialist Consultant, to having an MRI and another half dozen tests to having the surgery and being back home in around 5 weeks...

Even the NHS annual report for 2015 lists the average waiting time for an MRI at 2 weeks...


https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...sites/2/2014/09/DWTA-Report-January-20151.pdf

Actually, I misremembered. It was 6 months to see a specialist (referred from GP), who then recommended an MRI which took another 3 weeks!
 
As a matter of interest, did you manage to save there? (To take advantage of the exchange rate when you went back)

Yes, we managed to save. Wish I did save more ... I lost a lot in the 2008 crash :( Still recovering from those losses.
 
Out of interest. A salary of £50 000 - £60 000 pa, where would that leave you? I haven't been in the UK for about 13 years, and I earned ~£900pm at that point, so I don't really have a reference point.

Difference between then and now, I have an honors degree with 10 years experience.

Reason I am asking is because I have been approached by a company and am really considering it. Don't really know salary detail yet, but that is the average from what I could gather. Last time around I manage to adapt and ended up enjoying it - although it took about 4-5 months.
 
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Out of interest. A salary of £50 000 - £60 000 pa, where would that leave you? I haven't been in the UK for about 13 years, and I earned ~£900pm at that point, so I don't really have a reference point.

Difference between then and now, I have an honors degree with 10 years experience.

Reason I am asking is because I have been approached by a company and am really considering it. Don't really know salary detail yet, but that is the average from what I could gather. Last time around I manage to adapt and ended up enjoying it - although it took about 4-5 months.
That's about £3k-£3.5k a month take home. Very comfy living.
 
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