Great WA Update

[MVGL]

Seems that WA is really picking at straws... See the latest public post...


Hi Guys,

We’ve been offering a product targeted at Gamers and Professionals for a long time (Our previous Unshaped offerings), as stated this new add-on is an even better method, and allows us to offer the product at a more cost effective rate (Unshaped from R75/gb vs Home Pro from R32/gb). Prioritisation is how we achieved our superior quality all along, we’re now making this more clear and transparent with how our products work exactly (http://www.webafrica.co.za/kb/adsl/b...-profiles.html).

We have provisioned additional capacity for the new products we’ve launched, and will be upgrading in line with growth, as required.

The issues experienced recently, were as a result of a number of things unrelated to this product launch, as discussed numerous times on these and other forums.

The Home Pro product will certainly be less susceptible to load issues and overall offer superior reliability and quality to the standard Home products (as these customers are paying for their higher priority). Regards,
Rupert Bryant
COO - Chief Operating OfficerReply With Quote

Good Luck Guys

 

[Deleted member 78630]

the link seems to be broken

 

[ld13]

the link seems to be broken

It will be. It was a clean cutandpaste job. http://www.webafrica.co.za/kb/ADSL/Bandwidth-Quality-Profiles.html

 

[CrazyBob]

Linky: http://www.webafrica.co.za/kb/ADSL/Bandwidth-Quality-Profiles.html

 

[Gatecrasher]

Yes, WebAfrica have re-invented shaping, and are now charging premium prices for the "benefit" of their interference with your connection.

 

[Deleted member 78630]

Yes, WebAfrica have re-invented shaping, and are now charging premium prices for the "benefit" of their interference with your connection.

lol, I love the marketing strategies in SA.

 

[waroop]

Yes, WebAfrica have re-invented shaping

Nope, we've just made it better. We have the best network equipment in the industry and other ISP's aren't able to do what we are doing. This is not a marketing gimmick, the product truly offers one of the best ADSL connections available in SA (and its far cheaper than Unshaped).

interference with your connection

All providers apply technology to try and drive down costs while keeping the quality in the online experience as high as possible. Unless you're talking "unshaped" which is quite frankly rubbish since no ISP's sell ADSL on a 1:1 contention ratio.

 

[Gatecrasher]

All providers apply technology to try and drive down costs while keeping the quality in the online experience as high as possible. Unless you're talking "unshaped" which is quite frankly rubbish since no ISP's sell ADSL on a 1:1 contention ratio.

Contention and shaping are two totally separate things. Unshaped does not imply a 1:1 contention ratio. Unshaped is when traffic is just traffic regardless of its nature or protocol. Unshaped is traffic that does not require packet inspection or prioritization, and thus experiences lowest latency and maximum speed. Yes, it might still be subject to congestion, but it is never subject to shaping or throttling.

You keep telling us your shaping is better, but you don't explain how it is better. When you explain it, it just sounds like common-or-garden-gnome shaping. You say it is not a marketing gimmick, but you offer no basis or facts for your claims. You might point to the MyBB survey results, but those stats were taken with your old products - the ones most were very happy with - before you hiked you top-up charges and introduced the new "premium" services.

Since launching your new suite of products many WebAfrica users have complained about their existing products being shaped and throttled heavily, particularly during business hours - something that never used to happen. How are you going to overcome the perception that you have crippled existing services in order to create capacity for new "premium" services?

 

[HavocXphere]

The MyBB Special is presumably treated as "Home" for prioritization purposes?

Contention and shaping are two totally separate things. Unshaped does not imply a 1:1 contention ratio.

I think the point they are trying to make is that if you've got someone running P2P 24/7 and you treat all traffic equally then you need 1:1 for that person else it affects the other users.

 

[waroop]

Yes, it might still be subject to congestion, but it is never subject to shaping or throttling.

Correct, but ADSL is provisioned on around a 50:1 contention ratio on capped products, so with you're almost guaranteed erratic congestion on unshaped. (Typically the lower the price the higher the contention ratio). Prioritisation is needed to ensure quality in the user experience.

You keep telling us your shaping is better, but you don't explain how it is better. When you explain it, it just sounds like common-or-garden-gnome shaping. You say it is not a marketing gimmick, but you offer no basis or facts for your claims.

We manage traffic more effectively from the intelligence we've built into our advanced (and costly) traffic management systems combined with our skilled engineers. There is no simple answer, its the same way that Google can run a query faster than other search engine providers - continual optimisation, hard work and powerful systems.

How are you going to overcome the perception that you have crippled existing services in order to create capacity for new "premium" services?

Fresh off the WA forums:

The existing Home products remain as-is. To add extra quality is not feasible as we have to share our capacity with our users at a certain ratio to ensure we are profitable (These are called contention ratios - industry standard ranges between 20:1 to 50:1 on capped products). As for the new Home Pro, Business Lite and Business products: Try think of it like we've added extra brand new, high-quality lanes in the "network high-way" which are reserved for those who require the extra quality, can't afford congestion and thus pay the premium.

Does that make sense? What we'd like to do is also publish the contention ratio's in each bandwidth tier to better show how we're doing things? Do you guys feel that would add value?

http://forums.webafrica.co.za/showt...just-got-Better.&p=33977&viewfull=1#post33977

 

[waroop]

I think the point they are trying to make is that if you've got someone running P2P 24/7 and you treat all traffic equally then you need 1:1 for that person else it affects the other users.

Spot on.

Edit: Also to add, contention ratios aside, it always makes sense to prioritise traffic properly (a download should never interfer with your Skype conversation for example).

 

[HavocXphere]

Spot on.

Cool. And the question I asked above?

 

[waroop]

The MyBB Special is presumably treated as "Home" for prioritization purposes?.

Whoops missed this one - apologies. Yeah it is Silver grade quality:
http://www.webafrica.co.za/kb/ADSL/Bandwidth-Quality-Profiles.html

 

[Gatecrasher]

I think the point they are trying to make is that if you've got someone running P2P 24/7 and you treat all traffic equally then you need 1:1 for that person else it affects the other users.

Quite understandable on an uncapped product costing R500-R1000. But these are capped products. To run p2p flat-out 24/7 and all month long at 4MB/s (ie >1000GB) on WebAfrica's Home Pro would cost over R60 000. If I was paying that, I wouldn't care one jot about the effect on other users.

 

[Gatecrasher]

Correct, but ADSL is provisioned on around a 50:1 contention ratio on capped products, so with you're almost guaranteed erratic congestion on unshaped. (Typically the lower the price the higher the contention ratio). Prioritisation is needed to ensure quality in the user experience.

No, you are not guaranteed erratic congestion on unshaped because the accounts are capped, and sold in relatively small quantities per client.

We manage traffic more effectively from the intelligence we've built into our advanced (and costly) traffic management systems combined with our skilled engineers. There is no simple answer, its the same way that Google can run a query faster than other search engine providers - continual optimisation, hard work and powerful systems.

The cost of your management systems and the skill of your engineers is primarily for WebAfrica's benefit, so that you can presumably maximise utilization of a limited resource. They are not selling points.

 

[Gatecrasher]

Also to add, contention ratios aside, it always makes sense to prioritise traffic properly (a download should never interfer with your Skype conversation for example).

Clients are quite capable of sorting out their own bandwidth priorities. Especially on capped accounts where the bandwidth is paid per gig. Why is one client's bandwidth "more important" than another client's?

Your products are not uncapped, so why on earth are you trying to manage them as if they are?

 

[VioAdmin]

Clients are quite capable of sorting out their own bandwidth priorities. Especially on capped accounts where the bandwidth is paid per gig. Why is one client's bandwidth "more important" than another client's?

Your products are not uncapped, so why on earth are you trying to manage them as if they are?

+1

GateCrasher just took WebAfrica to school...game, set, match.

 

[who.is.michael]

Hi Rupert

I would be rather interested (PM if required) to review the contention ratios on all of WA's products; before I purchase these "new / superior" WA products.

If there is no clear and evidentiary proof that these new products' performance exceed the older products' performance by a considerable margin, I would be very reluctant to purchase these new products that are marketed at a substantially higher cost?

Feedback will be appreciated; as transparency (set the benchmark) and real "superior" products are always welcomed.

Regards

Mike

 

[davemc]

Which product is the gaming product then?

 

[HavocXphere]

crippled existing services in order to create capacity for new "premium" services?

Missed this the first time I read the thread. That really is the key insight in this thread. The prices on the low priority products haven't dropped with the new model, so we need to know the quality hasn't either.

Seeing as that the top packages P2P priority outranks the time critical priority of the lower packages (WTF WA!) I reckon its pretty likely that the lower end packages will experience worse performance than before the prioritization.

Good point there Gatecrasher.

Quite understandable on an uncapped product costing R500-R1000. But these are capped products. To run p2p flat-out 24/7 and all month long at 4MB/s (ie >1000GB) on WebAfrica's Home Pro would cost over R60 000.

The Rand amount you are charged has little to do with technical details. The product you're getting is a contended 4mb connection, not a 24/7 4mb/s line. I'm sure if you want a 24/7 flat-out line that is possible too...just not at 60k.

If I was paying that, I wouldn't care one jot about the effect on other users.

Thats true. ISPs need to make all clients happy though not just you. So either you need to buy a 1:1 line or accept that users can't run at full capacity 24/7 on contended line without short-changing someone.

Why is one client's bandwidth "more important" than another client's?

Its common business practice to stratify clients. Airlines have 1st Class, Business & Economy. Banks have Silver, Gold & Platinum. Apples have export grade etc. More money -> Better quality.

No, you are not guaranteed erratic congestion on unshaped because the accounts are capped, and sold in relatively small quantities per client.

Practical scenario:

100 ppl each with a 1mbps line and just 10mb cap each. ISP has 50:1 contention. That contention means the ISP has a 2mbps uplink. Friday night and by chance 3 of the 100 people (3% of clients) download something. So you've got a total demand of 3 mbps but only 2mbps available. Bang erratic congestion. The ISP can make everything entirely unshaped....it makes zero difference...you just can't push 3mbps through a 2mbps pipe.

You're 100% right that smaller capped packages will reduce this congestion (by reducing the chances of 3 ppl downloading at the same time), but it will never eliminate erratic congestion on a contended line.

Which product is the gaming product then?

The optimal fit will depends on a bunch factors.

If you're gaming on local servers then the cheapest package is best because local should (theoretically) be unshaped. However, if you're in Gauteng and connecting to Gauteng servers then you're better off with non-WA cap because they route it via CPT.

If you're gaming on international servers then it depends on the amount of data. If its very little then Titanium or Platinum would be best. If its a lot of data then a cheap ISP + a gaming tunnel service will work out cheaper (YMMV). If money is not an issue then Titanium WA + a gaming tunnel will give best results.

I would be rather interested (PM if required) to review the contention ratios on all of WA's products

I guarantee you that is impossible: To calculate per product contention ratio you'd need to calculate (Downstream capacity for product X)/(Upstream capacity for product X). If they are using prioritization that means there are no fixed pools and upstream capacity is allocated *dynamically* based on priority. So effectively they don't have & cannot calculate the denominator need to calculate the contention per product.

Prioritization make contention ratios meaningless. Even if they do give you the overall WA contention ratio (they won't) its still meaningless when evaluating a particular product since it reflects neither the performance of the high priority products nor the low priority products.