Gupta: Cops axed

[R/SGT]

I disagree, do what needs to be done but make sure you dot all the I’s and cross al the T’s. Although they shouldn’t be picking anything unless required by circumstances

Of course been a reservist I had less to lose, also I really didn’t care who you were, I had a few run ins with people who considered themselves a cut above the rest, but always came away smelling of roses since our group had the experience and knowledge to deal with it properly, plus it always helped to have digital cameras and video.

I do believe there still are police man and women out there who believe in the truth and correctness, since I worked with a large number of them, of course a large portion of policing is common sense
I always loved the question “Do you know who I am”,

 

[R/SGT]

@froot
Question is when is there reasonable suspicion?

When the officer feels there is, but he needs to be able to back it up, if not then he will have a problem

Rule 1 - If you are stopped, rather play the whole meek and mild thing, you may get off with a warning, but if you get in the cops face, you will just piss him of (police are also human) and in the case you mentioned, I would have thrown his ass in the van, taken him to the hospital for a blood sample (lots of fun) and then detained him for reck and neck, with that he would be held until he can come before a magistrate

 

[froot]

When the officer feels there is, but he needs to be able to back it up, if not then he will have a problem

Rule 1 - If you are stopped, rather play the whole meek and mild thing, you may get off with a warning, but if you get in the cops face, you will just piss him of (police are also human) and in the case you mentioned, I would have thrown his ass in the van, taken him to the hospital for a blood sample (lots of fun) and then detained him for reck and neck, with that he would be held until he can come before a magistrate

In this case the guy claimed his girlfriend sms'ed him to come on over. We found a wad of cash on him (in the region of 5k) and he was a Nigerian citizen. We have reason to believe he was a drug dealer but found nothing in his car so let him go.

 

[R/SGT]

In this case the guy claimed his girlfriend sms'ed him to come on over. We found a wad of cash on him (in the region of 5k) and he was a Nigerian citizen. We have reason to believe he was a drug dealer but found nothing in his car so let him go.

I am sure she did, if you felt he was a drug dealer then that would be a good reason to detain him on the reck and neck charge as he would have his finger prints taken and you could also check him on a morpho touch

it all depends on the officer who makes the call, what i suggested above would take a van of the road for a minimum of 4 hours (waiting a the hospital and paperwork). So you need to decide what the best option would be.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Wild_cat you do not have the same rights as the police

I don't care what the law says.

Rights are universal. Period. If not, then they are arbitrary and you can't use em to justify anything.

 

[Albereth]

I don't care what the law says.

Rights are universal. Period. If not, then they are arbitrary and you can't use em to justify anything.

I guess you are right. We all have rights. They are pretty universal.

Plods get powers too.

 

[R/SGT]

I don't care what the law says.

Rights are universal. Period. If not, then they are arbitrary and you can't use em to justify anything.

Unfortunatly for you the law cares and unless there has been some massive social upheval you are subject to those laws wether you like it or not.

As for rights been universal no, rights are a societal construct designed to manage our interactions with one another.

In nature there are no rights, it is pretty much a dog eat dog scenario

 

[Gnome]

Rule 1 - If you are stopped, rather play the whole meek and mild thing, you may get off with a warning, but if you get in the cops face, you will just piss him of (police are also human) and in the case you mentioned, I would have thrown his ass in the van, taken him to the hospital for a blood sample (lots of fun) and then detained him for reck and neck, with that he would be held until he can come before a magistrate

Out of curiosity, what happens when the police get taken to court after such a exercise?

 

[R/SGT]

Out of curiosity, what happens when the police get taken to court after such a exercise?

Taken to court for what, the above is perfectly legal, If the officer suspects you, of reckless and negligent driving while under the influence of alcohol.

All the officer has to do is put his hand on you and say that he is arresting you on the above charges, after that you had better tread carefully since any attempt to resist will result in extra charges.

As I said it is up to the officer at the scene to decide how he will proceed based on the circumstances.

If you feel wronged then you can open a case and see what happens

 

[WilD_CaT]

Unfortunatly for you the law cares

About whom? Certainly not me. Not when my rights are infringed by your laws.

and unless there has been some massive social upheval you are subject to those laws wether you like it or not.

One can say the same thing about apartheid bud. It is NOT an excuse.

As for rights been universal no, rights are a societal construct designed to manage our interactions with one another.

It does not matter if rights are a societal or social construct or not. Rights (Most Basic Rules) exist to resolve conflict bought about by human interaction. Whether a Chinese person interacts with a another, or English and English or South African and Chinese, the SAME problems come around. If the rules were different for cultures then they wouldn't be able to solve conflict when cultures interact and thus become pointless.

Which is why rights HAVE to be universal to be useful. If they aren't universal, then they aren't useful and thus they cannot justify your position as it becomes subjective and arbitrary nonsense.

In nature there are no rights, it is pretty much a dog eat dog scenario

Actually, we are part of nature, we have brains which we use to determine our actions instead of instict (This is natural, we didn't "think it up" one day), thus, us using our brains, we have created this concept to deal with the reality of conflict between person.

This conflict arisesw universally as a result of universal laws, for example, we cannot both eat the same banana or drive MY car at the same time. Hence, rules. Oh, btw, "fighting" for it is just a different set of rules, one where physical prowess determines the victor, where rights its purely intellectual.

Since we aren't primivative instictual animals for the most part, you got to justify your answer, and the single most important point, if your position is subjective (Which it is) then you cannot, BY DEFINITION, prove yourself to be right.

So you have to point some objective standard to argue you are right, which you are saying can't be done, ergo, you cannot prove your position is the right one.

In which case, kindly don't bother talking as it wastes my time.

 

[Gnome]

Taken to court for what, the above is perfectly legal, If the officer suspects you, of reckless and negligent driving while under the influence of alcohol.

What you suggested earlier sounded to me more like intimidation and wrongful arrest because someone doesn't bend over and act like your s#$t don't stink.

We've actually had this treatment from police officers @ Hatfield police station when just trying to report a crime (being treated like suspects). My mother's school friend is highly connected (lawyer) after contacting him and telling him what my mother went through. He made some calls and we were called by someone high up in the police service asking if we could testify so they can bring charges against this person (a captain whom they said was also fairly well connected & had his little circle of friends).

I really wonder. If your blood alcohol level is 0 and you have no drugs in your system how the police officer is going to defend himself. It's all about money, if you arrest me you would probably get off scot free because I can't afford the legal fees involved to take this all the way. If you arrest the CEO of Absa on the other hand you'll be out of a job next week.

Reality, your attitude is what is wrong with the police force.

Not everyone is a criminal and treating them with disrespect from the get go is going to put some people on the defence. If your natural reaction is to intimidate them, there is something very wrong with you and IMHO you should take a long hard look at your own moral values and ask yourself if you really want to that person who isn't 100% criminal but just at the point of crossing that line.

I have yet to hear about people who have talked to a police officer and felt they were treated with the dignity a human being accords to another. Something has to change... Will change (IMHO) eventually.

 

[intel8080]

WTF http://timeslive.co.za/Feeds/2009/09/10/affidavits-link-top-cops-to-gupta-arrest-case
timeslive.co.za/Feeds/2009/09/10/affidavits-link-top-cops-to-gupta-arrest-case
I don't like Gupta but I must admit, black/african police man are very racist indeed. Even with their non black colleagues (brown and Indian included). This is a issue no one wants to talk about (never mind admit in the open). My self would not have even mention it were it not for the anonymity of this forum

 

[MickeyD]

Gupta cops reinstated

Good news... also proves that something was fishy about this from the beginning.

GAUTENG's top cop has overturned the dismissal of two constables who arrested businessman Atul Gupta - instead giving them suspended sentences.

A disciplinary hearing found Sandton constables Amos Mangena and Aubrey Mlotshwa guilty of discrimination last month after they arrested the billionaire businessman in September 2010.

Gupta, a close friend of President Jacob Zuma, was involved in an altercation with the two police officers after being pulled over on the highway. They arrested Gupta after claiming he refused to be searched.

Gupta alleged the two officers told him: ''You Indians don't know how South Africa works. You should go back to India."

Mlotshwa, 36, and Mangena, 30, both denied the allegation.

They appealed against their dismissal but, before an appeal date was set, Gauteng police commissioner Lieutenant-General Mzwandile Petros intervened. They have since returned to their duties at the Sandton Police Station.

Petros's decision to reinstate the officers came after the Sunday Times revealed that top cops, including former provincial police commissioner Perumal Naidoo, actively involved themselves in the case by making frantic phone calls on the night of the incident to establish what had happened.

Gupta's spokesman could not be reached for comment.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2012/04/15/gupta-cops-reinstated

 

[ToxicBunny]

What, so these guys were dismissed based on a he says she says thing?!?! Seriously?

 

[MickeyD]

What, so these guys were dismissed based on a "ZUMA says they must go" thing?!?! Seriously?

Fixed.

 

[bekdik]

Of course if the 'cops' had been members of SANRAL, there wouldn't be a problem with stop and search ....