While I agree that the Ts&Cs are legal and binding, see [post=1297532]what I posted here[/post] for your benefit
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Question of the Day: Do you think you could pass a driver's licence test without any preparation?
Have your say, vote for Data Bundle Rollover
- Thread starter Snowolf
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.I don't agree with the policy, I was just pointing out its quite hard to plead ignorance, the conditions are spelled out quite clearly.
Makes no difference to the inherent sensibility of the user: the user is being ripped off (plain and simple.)
Companies (and responses by reps) who blatantly display their multi-billion arrogance leave nothing but distaste with users. But unhappy users make no difference when all are the same: no choice, no value.
Companies who thrive on closed markets and the bad practices of monopolistic capitalism are the worst examples of fairness and integrity: as is so aptly displayed on this forum.
You are supposed to be building in this world: not destroying by keeping people in poverty.
vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
While I don't disagree in principle that you should get what you pay for, the problem with a virtual product like a data bundle is that you cannot 'store' it, i.e. if you don't use your bundle in a specific period, where do you keep the unused portion? It's not like buying a tank of petrol, you can keep and use at your leisure.
The second, important point is one of what you buy vs what the delivery mechanism is. This is the biggest challenge in delivering data bundles as it includes a time component.
You buy a certain 'bundle of data', say 1GByte. Although you have a period of 30 days in which to use it, you could also expect Vodacom to deliver it at maximum speed, less than 2 hours at current speeds.
To ensure that the bundle can be delivered at reasonable speed (and not get accused of a slow network), Vodacom must buy a certain amount of back-haul capacity. This is not bought in outright bytes, but rather bits / second.
The bigger the pipe (more bits/second), the more expensive it is. If no-one uses the pipe at any given point in time, that unused capacity is lost forever. Again, because of the time element, you cannot 'store' unused capacity. It's a true use-it or loose-it situation.
So there is a distinct mismatch between what is bought (capacity in b/s) and what is sold (bundles in bytes).
You can see that this becomes a complex calculation to try and determine the amount of transmission required to try and deliver all bundles within a reasonable time-frame. Any of these parameters will affect the price.
The easiest solution would be to have an uncapped service and you buy bandwidth in bits/second, i.e. you pay a fixed fee per month for a fixed bandwidth. The problem with this is pure cost; it'll be so expensive, very few people would be able to afford it as the network will have to be provisioned for 1.5Mb/s / user and you'll pay for your 1.5Mb/s / month, if you use it or not. Think of a wireless Diginet service.
Another option is to make sure you have just enough speed to deliver your bundle in the required period. If you buy 1GByte of data over 30 days, you only need about 3Kb/s throughput to make use of your bundle. Or 1.5b/s for a 500M bundle. This would drive costs down substantially, but again, no-one would go for a service like this.
Somewhere between these two extremes, one must find a suitable compromise, between instantaneous access speed, total data usage, contention ratios and number of users.
Vodacom did exactly these calculations and the current 'bundle sizes' / 'access speed' / 'number of users' parameters dictates the current pricing. So it's not so simple as is often believed by forumites.
One can easily introduce roll-over but the effect on the above would be that the transmission speed will have to increase (in worst case) by the same factor as the roll-over period as you now need to accommodate potential over-subscription.
Worst case would dictate a doubling in bundle price for every 30 days of roll-over. Again there are mitigating parameters so it won't quite be a 1:1 increase, probably something less than a factor of 1.
The question is; what is a suitable roll-over price and, more importantly, will people buy a roll-over product if it means a more expensive bundle?
/footnote/
BTW, If anyone can find a way to store unused capacity, we should really talk.
The second, important point is one of what you buy vs what the delivery mechanism is. This is the biggest challenge in delivering data bundles as it includes a time component.
You buy a certain 'bundle of data', say 1GByte. Although you have a period of 30 days in which to use it, you could also expect Vodacom to deliver it at maximum speed, less than 2 hours at current speeds.
To ensure that the bundle can be delivered at reasonable speed (and not get accused of a slow network), Vodacom must buy a certain amount of back-haul capacity. This is not bought in outright bytes, but rather bits / second.
The bigger the pipe (more bits/second), the more expensive it is. If no-one uses the pipe at any given point in time, that unused capacity is lost forever. Again, because of the time element, you cannot 'store' unused capacity. It's a true use-it or loose-it situation.
So there is a distinct mismatch between what is bought (capacity in b/s) and what is sold (bundles in bytes).
You can see that this becomes a complex calculation to try and determine the amount of transmission required to try and deliver all bundles within a reasonable time-frame. Any of these parameters will affect the price.
The easiest solution would be to have an uncapped service and you buy bandwidth in bits/second, i.e. you pay a fixed fee per month for a fixed bandwidth. The problem with this is pure cost; it'll be so expensive, very few people would be able to afford it as the network will have to be provisioned for 1.5Mb/s / user and you'll pay for your 1.5Mb/s / month, if you use it or not. Think of a wireless Diginet service.
Another option is to make sure you have just enough speed to deliver your bundle in the required period. If you buy 1GByte of data over 30 days, you only need about 3Kb/s throughput to make use of your bundle. Or 1.5b/s for a 500M bundle. This would drive costs down substantially, but again, no-one would go for a service like this.
Somewhere between these two extremes, one must find a suitable compromise, between instantaneous access speed, total data usage, contention ratios and number of users.
Vodacom did exactly these calculations and the current 'bundle sizes' / 'access speed' / 'number of users' parameters dictates the current pricing. So it's not so simple as is often believed by forumites.
One can easily introduce roll-over but the effect on the above would be that the transmission speed will have to increase (in worst case) by the same factor as the roll-over period as you now need to accommodate potential over-subscription.
Worst case would dictate a doubling in bundle price for every 30 days of roll-over. Again there are mitigating parameters so it won't quite be a 1:1 increase, probably something less than a factor of 1.
The question is; what is a suitable roll-over price and, more importantly, will people buy a roll-over product if it means a more expensive bundle?
/footnote/
BTW, If anyone can find a way to store unused capacity, we should really talk.
If price and T&C are too stifling few or less will use the product (hence a need to store unused capacity; if price and T&C were reasonable and not against the inherent sensibilities and sensitivities of users there would be no 'unused' capacity.)-
/footnote/
BTW, If anyone can find a way to store unused capacity, we should really talk.
Vodacoms 'burst' criteria are no excuse for a multi-billion Dollar company: so we the peasants must absorb the cost. How about the Lord of the Manor apply the tenets of capitalism? If the price is right the peeps will come: and we will provide service accordingly.
Not the case here: a very rich company getting richer on the backs of ripped off users. Your problems are not our problems: stealing our paid for product makes it our problem. Fix it instead of offering excuses here.
While I don't disagree in principle that you should get what you pay for, the problem with a virtual product like a data bundle is that you cannot 'store' it, i.e. if you don't use your bundle in a specific period, where do you keep the unused portion? It's not like buying a tank of petrol, you can keep and use at your leisure.
The second, important point is one of what you buy vs what the delivery mechanism is. This is the biggest challenge in delivering data bundles as it includes a time component.
You buy a certain 'bundle of data', say 1GByte. Although you have a period of 30 days in which to use it, you could also expect Vodacom to deliver it at maximum speed, less than 2 hours at current speeds.
To ensure that the bundle can be delivered at reasonable speed (and not get accused of a slow network), Vodacom must buy a certain amount of back-haul capacity. This is not bought in outright bytes, but rather bits / second.
The bigger the pipe (more bits/second), the more expensive it is. If no-one uses the pipe at any given point in time, that unused capacity is lost forever. Again, because of the time element, you cannot 'store' unused capacity. It's a true use-it or loose-it situation.
So there is a distinct mismatch between what is bought (capacity in b/s) and what is sold (bundles in bytes).
You can see that this becomes a complex calculation to try and determine the amount of transmission required to try and deliver all bundles within a reasonable time-frame. Any of these parameters will affect the price.
The easiest solution would be to have an uncapped service and you buy bandwidth in bits/second, i.e. you pay a fixed fee per month for a fixed bandwidth. The problem with this is pure cost; it'll be so expensive, very few people would be able to afford it as the network will have to be provisioned for 1.5Mb/s / user and you'll pay for your 1.5Mb/s / month, if you use it or not. Think of a wireless Diginet service.
Another option is to make sure you have just enough speed to deliver your bundle in the required period. If you buy 1GByte of data over 30 days, you only need about 3Kb/s throughput to make use of your bundle. Or 1.5b/s for a 500M bundle. This would drive costs down substantially, but again, no-one would go for a service like this.
Somewhere between these two extremes, one must find a suitable compromise, between instantaneous access speed, total data usage, contention ratios and number of users.
Vodacom did exactly these calculations and the current 'bundle sizes' / 'access speed' / 'number of users' parameters dictates the current pricing. So it's not so simple as is often believed by forumites.
One can easily introduce roll-over but the effect on the above would be that the transmission speed will have to increase (in worst case) by the same factor as the roll-over period as you now need to accommodate potential over-subscription.
Worst case would dictate a doubling in bundle price for every 30 days of roll-over. Again there are mitigating parameters so it won't quite be a 1:1 increase, probably something less than a factor of 1.
The question is; what is a suitable roll-over price and, more importantly, will people buy a roll-over product if it means a more expensive bundle?
/footnote/
BTW, If anyone can find a way to store unused capacity, we should really talk.
One compromise solution might be to limit the amount of data that can be rolled over to say 20 or 25% of the bundle total and then that could be rolled over for one month only. That would then eliminate people losing the last bit of their bundle at the end of the month but would have less of an impact on the network infrastructure, it might actually reduce load if it ends the month end rush to finish bundles.
There's always going to be unused capacity, demand at 3 am is always going to be less than at 8 pm. And the people are coming anyway, by all accounts 3G/HSDPA has had massive uptake in SA, much more so than internationally thanks to Telkom's ADSL pricing and service. As I said I agree in principle that rollover should be provided but I suppose Telkom's extortionate backhaul pricing doesn't help either, maybe we'll see a change once Vodacom has their own fibre network and the cost of additional capacity is less.
Um, how many times has VC taken telkom to court over monopolistic practises? How many times has VC complained to the Consumer Council over telkoms monopolistic practises? How many times has VC stood up to telkom?
Plain fact: monopolistic practises suit the coffers of mega-buck companies: otherwise they would be more pro-active in the interests of consumers (nay, they would rather get rich at the expense of consumers who are buying a product and then 'losing' it.)
Oh yes, and last time I looked VC and telkom were one and the same company: amazing how those board seats just don't cut it!
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Vodacom, as an effective customer of Telkom in terms of leased lines etc. doesn't benefit from their monopoly at all, otherwise why would Vodacom be rolling out its own fibre? I'm not sure how many times Vodacom's stood up to Telkom but I'm guessing its not the sort of thing they'd make public, of course even if you do stand up to them there's not much you can do, there's no alternative.
Vodacom and Telkom definitely aren't the same company, yes Telkom owns 50% of Voda (which they're looking to sell it seems) but its common knowledge there's no love lost between the two.
vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
There are many possibilities (such as your ideas), the catch is to find the sweet spot that will work for most people.
As I said above the complexity comes in when you buy something in one unit and then sells it in another, non-compatible one.
Driving down transmission costs will help a lot, but I suspect it will be used to lower the overall cost of data bundles as more users will benefit (and prefer).
If we can suddenly drop data prices by say 50%, what would you choose? All bundles drop by 50% or we keep the price the same but introduce roll-over for an additional 30 day?
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Prometheus
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Cell C gives us roll over. :rollover:
Thoughts exactly.What is needed by Vodacom to implement DBRO? If they can do it on the voice systems then why not the data systems?
Goeie hel, hierdie forum sagteware wys selfs wie in watter garing gepos het.
Let's be honest, how many people ever read those Ts & Cs before clicking?
Waar is daai Groen dakkies se nommer?", but now I see. Never knew it was there. Always wanted to
While you're being honest, have you been to an optometrist lately? - I ask bcos you would have to have extremely bad eyesight to not see the 30 day validity when buying a PPDB on v4me, it is very clear...
Prometheus
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This is my sentiments exactly. While it is true that Vodacom leases a certain amount of capacity from Telkom and pay for it whether they use it or not this is not as far as it goes.
A large portion of the cost goes towards peering charges where either Telkom, IS or Neotel gets a cut and these are usage based and not speed based.
Even if this was not the case we know that Vodacom does not calculate it's bandwidth needs from the amount of bundles used but rather from the usage in a certain area so this old argument doesn't hold water.
As has been pointed out roll over will actually alleviate congestion at month end and possibly make upgrades fewer and further between.
As you say Vodacom's "problems" are not our problems. Vodacom may see its offers as value for money but the consumer uses different criteria to make this judgement and Vodacom's offer is way behind what is available internationally even though Vodacom likes to make the claim about being in line with it or cheaper.
Currently I don't think price has anything to do with no roll over but profiteering does. It's however the best offer in the market for only a few gigs of usage but if the criteria changes I will jump ship again just like I did with Virgin after giving them two months warning that their 50c/MB offer was stale.
I don't use it and have never been able to use it. For some reason Vodacom's sites are very browser limited. If it's right next to where you click "I accept" this would be a valid point but if it's buried in the Ts & Cs most people probably never look at it.
vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
Cell C gives us roll over. :rollover:
Thanks for proving my point....
If we drop access speeds to GPRS/EDGE, we can substantially lower cost to deliver which means we can either drop data prices or give roll-over.
So, if OK with you, we'll drop access speeds to 80Kb/s for everyone and give everyone a 3 month roll-over.
Obviously the 50% price drop, can we expect it anytime soon?
If the price becomes cheaper rollover would be less of an issue anyway I suppose because people would effectively be losing less.Prometheus
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I haven't proven any point. Roll over will not increase the speed you need to provide the service, in contrast as was said by some (ic no lessThanks for proving my point....
If we drop access speeds to GPRS/EDGE, we can substantially lower cost to deliver which means we can either drop data prices or give roll-over.
So, if OK with you, we'll drop access speeds to 80Kb/s for everyone and give everyone a 3 month roll-over.
) it will alleviate congestion. You know congestion right? It's what makes my connection slower and slower every month and hence makes the service I am paying a hefty amount for worth less and less. Not that this bothers Vodacom in the least. Here's a suggestion for you, either get them to immediately upgrade ALL the links, lower the price by 50% since it's only worth 50% now, or introduce roll over. It would only be fair that with the increase in those fat profits we actually get what we pay for for a change and not less as usual.
Your forgetting the part in the equation again that grps/edge costs more to deliver the same amount of data. But it wouldn't surprise me if the "little" guy provides it first.
AirWolf
Honorary Master
Only 8 more votes for 500. I've been think about what V3g said about how the cost to VC and the selling units are in different formats, but haven't come up with any good ideas yet
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. I've been think about what V3g said about how the cost to VC and the selling units are in different formats, but haven't come up with any good ideas yet.vodacom3g
Vodacom Representative
I haven't proven any point. Roll over will not increase the speed you need to provide the service, in contrast as was said by some (ic no less
Here's a suggestion for you, either get them to immediately upgrade ALL the links, lower the price by 50% since it's only worth 50% now, or introduce roll over. It would only be fair that with the increase in those fat profits we actually get what we pay for for a change and not less as usual.
Your forgetting the part in the equation again that grps/edge costs more to deliver the same amount of data. But it wouldn't surprise me if the "little" guy provides it first.
Please provide proof for your statement that it's more expensive to deliver over GPRS than UMTS.
Skeptik
Banned
And the lowest data bundle on Vodacom costs how much exactly???
If you really had the majority of South Africans at heart you would be very quiet on that point
What are Vodacom's access speeds anyway? Certainly NOT what it advertised. MTN trumps them on the GPRS front any time/any day.Thanks for proving my point....
If we drop access speeds to GPRS/EDGE, we can substantially lower cost to deliver which means we can either drop data prices or give roll-over.
So, if OK with you, we'll drop access speeds to 80Kb/s for everyone and give everyone a 3 month roll-over.
Just bring them up to the correct speeds according to what GPRS is supposed to be and then we can talk.
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