Help!

fergus

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Joined
Dec 13, 2004
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Cape Town, South Africa
I'm busy setting up a small wireless network for the first time and I feel a bit lost. I'm trying to figure out what would be the best equipment to get and how to setup it up and I'm a bit clueless. Can anybody advise where I should go to learn more, any good wireless forums I can ask questions on, or any tips in general how to get started and not make mistakes in buying the wrong stuff, etc.

Thanks, any help is appreciated.
 
fergus, are you wanting a wifi network at home only? or wanting to link to nearby friends wirelessly?

If you just want to do something at your home, then u need to provide us a little more info as to what you would like to achieve... walk around the garden with the laptop, surfin the net? link several pc's together without having to run cable?

what ya wanna do? Check the link in my signature for more info.... ;)
 
I want to link 2 flats together. I actually have a working wireless link but it only has about a 60% signal and I want to perhaps upgrade it. The equipment I'm currently using is standard Netgear stuff which is intended for indoors use mainly. I actually have a Netgear usb adaptor (WG111) sticking out a window with home made weather proofing (bank bags and sticky tape :)).

Some questions I have (these may seem silly to you but I just want to make sure):

1. If my base station has a 2dbi antenna and the client has a 2dbi antenna will upgrading the client to 4dbi improve the signal?
2. Or would it be better to upgrade the base station antenna to something more powerful?
3. How much dbi do I need. (The distance is about 50m I estimate but the building face isn't flat - some of the flats are set back in the facade and I'm not sure if this would cause signal loss. There is direct line of sight though with the antennas mounted externally).
4. What type of adaptor should I get for the client - USB or PCI?
5. What antennas should I use: dipole, omni, yagi, etc and whats the difference?

Here's a diagram in case I'm not making myself clear. (This is supposed to be a building):

Code:
   +------------------------------------------+ 
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |
   |    ^                                     | 
   |    |----- Flat i want to link to         | <--+
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |    |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |    |
   |                                          |    |
   |                                          |    | About a 50m distance
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |    | (this line should be
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |  diagonal but that would
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |  be too difficult with
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |    |  text)
   |                                          |    |
   |                                          |    |
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |    |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |    |
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |    |
   |                                     ^    |    |
   |                          My flat ---|    | <--+
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
   |  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
   |  +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   +---+   |
---+------------------------------------------+------
 
I can only explain this the way I would choose to do it if it was me...

Purchase 2 x Linksys WRT54G or similiar routers, use a 12dbi Yagi at each location (Yagi is directional) and point them at each other - preferrably have the Yagi's mounted on poles on the roof (if the body corporate does not mind) and you are guaranteed a link provided you have decent LOS (Line of Sight)

Another way would be to purchase a couple of PCI Wifi cards (or even a different USB dongle which allows for an external antenna) - Then you can rule out access points completely

If you already have a link, albeit a poor one, try improving it first... do yourself a favour and google cantenna or custom usb dongle antenna... there are literally hundreds of people out there who have experienced similiar problems, and overcome them by sticking pringles cans on their access point rubber duck antennas, or put their usb dongles inside empty sardine cans...

There is always a way... but if you can afford to spend a couple of grand, then consider what I suggested regarding the linksys route...

Come to http://www.jawug.za.net and read everything you can in both the wiki and the forums...
 
signal...

First of all, 60% signal strength is pretty darn good actually.

I wouldn't bother spending extra money on equipment.
 
Ryder, as levels of overkill go what you propose is overkill OF overkill! (.and yes, I do acknowledge that your input is from 'WUG background 'n these are the tools you know to use) :cool: ..I mean, 12dBi yagi's to FIFTY metres??! I've used those things (in my Sentech HGA work, which skews things somewhat, but still..) to talk to towers 3-5 KILOmetres away! Seriously, unless you plan on overcoming an olympic swimming pool length of co-ax to recover cable signal loss, there's really no need to go to that expense ..or, for that matter, visual eye-sore/evidence of Doing Stuff That May Be Nefarious(tm)

At that range, if we're even going to do HGA action of any kind, I'd use li'l 8dBi flat panels - at 8cm on a side they're nigh on invisible to the untrained civilian eye :D ..which should neatly avoid problems with body corporate busybodies! And, at 8dBi they're STILL overkill for that distance, but at least they're damn small and more than enough to do the job.

And then, a router on each side? I can understand using one, or even just an AP, really as wireless NIC's calm right down with an AP to talk to; instead of chattering madly back and forth like co-dependant kugels out of their comfort zones, but still...

fergus gives us FAR too little info (..that'd be a hint!) as to what hardware's where, as in: is his/either PC by a window, such that his WG111/a USB wi-fi adapter can be put on the end of 5m worth of USB cable? (that being the spec'd max length one should use USB at; it *may* be possible to get more, YMMV). If so, it may take no more than putting 'em on the end of a long USB cable and leaving it at that!

If he wants to go the co-ax route, a PCI card would be preferable as there's that nifty li'l reverse SMA connector one could put an 8dBi panel onto, on the end of some length (again, input please fergus!) of cable. Also, he'd be able to get full wireless-G speed (with an external antenna, at any rate)

And then we could get *really* creative! :D ..I googled for "hack WG111 external antenna" and landed up on netstumbler.org, specifically on this discussion: http://www.netstumbler.org/archive/index.php/t-16003.html titled "WG111 soldering fun!" ..check it out, specially the posts by Phunky Monkey - and definitely his post of [06-04-2005, 09:17 PM] where he posts links to pix of how he HGA'd his WG111!

fergus, for the questions you did have the presence of mind to ask (hint, asking good questions (like these) is notatALL silly and is the preferred method of getting a geek to open up!:) )

1. antenna gain is a calculated as a logarithmic function ..which sounds horribly complicated, so ignore that and just remember: the gain (amplification ability) of an antenna is doubled or halved every 3dB you go up or down. IOW, if you have your reference 2dBi antenna (the thing you're likely to get on the back of a PCI card) and put in a 5dBi dipole (looks like a bigger stick, really); you'll have put in a part that has twice the ability (in terms of sending a signal farther, as well as being twice as sensitive at picking one up). If you then put in an 8dBi omni (staying with the one kind of device here), you'll have doubled up *again* - so you're now 4x stronger than you were with the original one. PS, this thing often looks much like around 40cm of white-painted broomstick-sized rod.

2. yes, but not as you may think. You can achieve "something more powerful" by tossing out the dipole/omni (which radiate pretty much evenly all round, not unlike a candle (..and so waste light/energy/radiation everywhere you DON'T want it!)) and using something directional (..put a reflector around 3/4(ish) of that candle so light comes out only in the remaining 1/4) instead. You're now passively (as in, not putting energy in to get the apparent amplification) 'amplifying' your usable signal.

3. for what you've told us, and as per my op-ed above: an 8dBi panel should be more than sufficient; hell, I've even got one of these somewhere near the Cresta region aimed at the MyWi Mintek tower- a distance of 2.59km, according to my GPS!

4. depends, more data please!

5. you want to focus your (radiated, i.e. off the antenna) energy ONLY in the direction you actually want to use it; 'lighting up' every place that's NOT the flat you're aiming at is a) wasted energy and b) possibly a nuisance to other people who may be wanting the ether for whatever floats *their* boat. This would make dipoles and omnis *bad*! Any of the 'focussing' types would do the job, but it now becomes a question of cost: sure, a 40cm dish would make for a *really* narrow beam (getting to be like the light from a torch, rather than a 1/4 circle of illumination) but it'd be HUGE overkill for your distance and are a hassle in many ways, too. Depending on the yagi (look at a TV aerial sometime, yagi's look a lot like that (unless TV aerials ARE yagi, or are they log-periodic? ..I forget)) you'd end up with a ~40cm grey plastic thing, or a ~60cm piece of metal -and again these are massive overkill for your job ...as least, going on the little data you provided.

As I said above, the smallest you can get away with (which has the pleasant bonus of being the cheapest too!) would be more than you need anyway, so I'd personally go for an 8dBi flat panel (which are, you know .. flat, square things!) Check http://www.miro.co.za/stage/intranet/datasheet.php?id=50 for the part I mean.

..ahem. OK, I got *far* too involved in this one- time to go and do something that actually helps pay the rent!

HTH
-bdt
 
talk about detail...
too bad bluetooth only goes up to 770kbit per sec, else these things would be so much simpler....and not to mention cheaper :(
 
Nameite said:
talk about detail...

:rolleyes: - well yes, I have this tendency (sometimes regrettably) to get (just a little bit, mind!) carried away ..and then it ALL has to be worked through or it backs up the system and I end up blurting out nonsene to people who have NO idea what I'm blathering on about! :D

-bdt
 
Hey bdt thanks for the post I really appreciate it. You've taught me a lot already.

I like your suggestion for the directional antennas and if I can figure out a way to mount them I might give it a try. Mounting is difficult because there's no possibility to drill into the wall. Physically its impossible - the windows are very small and you couldn't even reach to the wall, plus its strictly against the rules here. I currently have my antennas extended out from the building using a stiff wire. I use 3 pieces in like a pyramid shape for the best stability. I then clamp the window shut over the wires to fix them in place. Its not pretty but it does the job.

It would be quite a challenge to find a way to mount the directionals and keep them pointing in the right direction. Possibly using a strong suction cap on the glass. Another way might be to use a magnetic base on the outside with another strong magnet (or don't magnets repel each other or something?) on the inside.

Omnis are definitely the easiest to deploy for me. How would I go about reflecting the signal in the right direction?

Re: question number 4. For the client I was wondering whether to get a pci or usb adaptor. I would then plug the antenna (which I don't have yet) into this. Its seems a usb is better because it can be extended closer to window out of which the antenna is going. Currently the pc at the client is within a metre of the window and the netgear usb adaptor I'm using now is a single usb extension cable of about 1.5m. I don't like the netgear usb adaptor very much though cos it tends to overheat and seems a bit unreliable. I'd rather replace it with a real antenna (thank do soldering jobs, etc, although it sounds interesting).

Do you need any more info? Basically my restraints are cost (little as possible), no way to mount externally besides the ways I mentioned above, and the installation must be as in-conspicous as possible. We have rules against mounting things like satellite dishes and so on. The smaller the better. Luckily the building facade is rather busy-looking so a small antenna here and there won't get noticed easily, not that anybody would want to actually look at our building.

Once again, thanks for the awesome post!
 
deaf ears

Rinse, wash, repeat...

You say you already have 60% signal strength. For what reason do you want to upgrade that?

Keep in mind, there's a difference between signal strength and link quality.

If you compare it to a verbal communication between two people, signal strength would be how loudly they're talking, link quality would be how clearly they're talking.

i.e. As long as you have good link quality, you're fine. YOU DON'T NEED TO TALK LOUDER.
 
Okay, thanks for the tip. The quality is pretty good. Ping time is 6 - 9ms and since I've mounted both antennas outside there's no packet loss. Thanks for all the tips guys.
 
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