Hiring software developers is difficult

noxibox said:
Think very carefully about whether you want to work for a company that asks these and other well-known ridiculous interview questions. If you really need the job your best bet is to try to gather some insider information and tell them what they want to hear. Otherwise something you make up on the spot is as good as something you've genuinely thought about.


What did they plan ahead, their answer, their improvisational skills, their lying ability or the job they'll be doing? Better hope it's one of the first three.
The company can't in fact make those kind of long term plans any more than the employee, so it indicates that the company/interviewer lives in a fantasy world. Damn why did we hire all these people who only wanted to grow technically and now we need people managers? We hired all these people and they said they wanted to grow technically, so the next person we hire must be someone who wants to be a people manager. Luckily no-one ever changes their mind and the company knows exactly what it is going to need in five years.

But we've had this argument on this forum before and it's clear some people will cling to the "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" cult no matter what.
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I think people also cling to the cult of The Employer is Always Right and HR is Good For Me.

HR should pay me my salary, thats it. HR should not be involved in anything else - least of all, hiring decisions.
 
Flojo said:
http://www.codingjohnson.com/he-got-1-percent-we-cant-hire-him#.Uh5CR5-xXVU

Here is a read i thought was interesting and appropiate to this thread.
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Good read. Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately that happens everywhere. I work in HR and see these power plays everyday. The HR Manager desperately trying to make himself relevant by blocking and stonewalling others with red tape.

I do plenty of interviews and I would never presume that my role is anything more than an advisor. I just add an extra point of view from a different angle to the hiring decision.

Well at least things are changing now that hiring managers are a bit more clued up on hiring methods, legislation and interviewing skills.
 
noxibox said:
But we've had this argument on this forum before and it's clear some people will cling to the "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" cult no matter what.
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You would be surprised how often people people say something along the lines of "I see this position as a stepping stone to what I really want to do".
 
Ancalagon said:
They are pointless, because everybody lies when they answer them.

Where do you see yourself in five years?
BS answer:
Still working hard at your company, loving every day, having been promoted to management or architecture role because I am so awesome.
Real answer:
I'd rather be sitting on my private beach with all the millions I've made - wouldnt you? Failing that, I really have no idea where I will be. I might be working for you, and I might not. I might not even stay in software development - anything is possible.

What is your biggest weakness?
BS answer:
My attention to detail - I sometimes take more time to get things done, because I am thorough and like to make sure it is done right. See what I've done there? I've turned a negative into a positive, arent I clever?
Real answer:
Youtube, facebook, and 9gag of course!

The answer to #1 is largely irrelevant to whether you should be hired, and nobody is going to be honest about #2.
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Lol. I was going to post something similar but I didn't want to give away my rehearsed bs answers... (or they would be rehearsed but I'm too lazy for that and not quite up to date on 9gag)
 
Flojo said:
http://www.codingjohnson.com/he-got-1-percent-we-cant-hire-him#.Uh5CR5-xXVU

Here is a read i thought was interesting and appropiate to this thread.
Click to expand...
Although people like to believe in them I also know that it is not that difficult to skew psychometric tests. The more intelligent someone is the easier it is. They can try to make the test more subtle, but that just makes undermining it more fun.

I've seen someone get high marks on a technical test, which was taken in the office, and yet turn out to be nearly useless in practice. On the other hand you get the people who won't do well on a test, doesn't keep all the technical terms in their head, but can think out and solve problems. Many times interviewers will reject that person.

Everyone has their beliefs about the kind of person they want to hire and how to determine the best choice, but there is no objective test. This is why the notion that companies hire the best person for the job is pure fantasy.
 
noxibox said:
And, what's your point?
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Would you hire somebody who outright admits that the position they're interviewing doesn't really interest them, and they just need it for the experience, opportunities, etc?

If someone tells you their plan is to stay with the role and make it their own, that's better. If they're giving this as a bs rehearsed answer, then there's nothing one can do. Either way it will likely end badly for both parties.
 
Ejeckt said:
Would you hire somebody who outright admits that the position they're interviewing doesn't really interest them, and they just need it for the experience, opportunities, etc?

If someone tells you their plan is to stay with the role and make it their own, that's better.
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So that would be a company that doesn't want people to progress. Those looking to move up the ladder need not apply.
 
I'm a bit strange because I think that a job interview should be used by both parties to get to know each other and decide whether they're compatible. Kind of like a first date :)

Yes, I could bulls##t and try to game the interview but I'd rather the entire process be useful for both parties. If that means making sure that my medium to long term plans are compatible with the company I'm interviewing with then so be it. I'll honestly answer the question. If they want to know what my weakness is I'll tell them front-end web development because information like that is useful to someone employing me and my possible future growth within the company.
 
Ejeckt said:
Would you hire somebody who outright admits that the position they're interviewing doesn't really interest them, and they just need it for the experience, opportunities, etc?

If someone tells you their plan is to stay with the role and make it their own, that's better. If they're giving this as a bs rehearsed answer, then there's nothing one can do. Either way it will likely end badly for both parties.
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What is the point in asking?

There is no role on earth that someone would want to stay in for the rest of their lives. Everybody wants to grow and change. Even if you enjoy the role for now, at some point, you will want to change. Saying that this role is not what you see yourself doing for the rest of your life is just being honest.

Fact is, most positions are uninteresting. 99% of them. And those that are interesting at first, cease to be interesting soon. So, someone who tells you that they just LOVE your company, and are SO excited to work you, is lying to you.

Ask them if they would still work for you if you didnt pay them - guess what the answer would be. I think I can count on one hand the number of jobs I would be willing to do without being paid, assuming money was not a problem.
 
Ancalagon said:
What is the point in asking?

There is no role on earth that someone would want to stay in for the rest of their lives. Everybody wants to grow and change. Even if you enjoy the role for now, at some point, you will want to change. Saying that this role is not what you see yourself doing for the rest of your life is just being honest.

Fact is, most positions are uninteresting. 99% of them. And those that are interesting at first, cease to be interesting soon. So, someone who tells you that they just LOVE your company, and are SO excited to work you, is lying to you.

Ask them if they would still work for you if you didnt pay them - guess what the answer would be. I think I can count on one hand the number of jobs I would be willing to do without being paid, assuming money was not a problem.
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I for one, have no desire to be promoted again. Been there, saw the movie, got the t shirt:) Not interested in managing people with their sob stories, personal issues, issues with co-workers etc., and "why didn't my salary increase to <market related amount x 1000>" :)

I get well paid doing what I'm doing and I am to fund my hobbies, lesure and holidays, without the bs that my life belongs 24/7(I.e. company smartphone) to some dipstick CEO :)
 
BobsLawnService said:
I'm a bit strange because I think that a job interview should be used by both parties to get to know each other and decide whether they're compatible. Kind of like a first date :)

Yes, I could bulls##t and try to game the interview but I'd rather the entire process be useful for both parties. If that means making sure that my medium to long term plans are compatible with the company I'm interviewing with then so be it. I'll honestly answer the question. If they want to know what my weakness is I'll tell them front-end web development because information like that is useful to someone employing me and my possible future growth within the company.
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I think you are onto something. What you said provoked some thought and I went over the interviews I have had with the last few clients.

The last few clients that interviewed me for a position as an independent contractor were more about sitting around the table talking cr@p than anything else.
The first half an hour or so was tech talk where they assessed my skill level - and I assessed their requirements - then it just goes into talking about whatever. And actually having an enjoyable interview.
No tech tests or anything like that. Just general chit chat and as you say - assessing from both sides how the fit is.

I have maintained relationships with some of these clients - and staff - even after the contract ended.

I prefer this method of interviewing. When it is just tech and tests - how does either side know if there is a good fit or not?
 
Mike Smit said:
I think you are onto something. What you said provoked some thought and I went over the interviews I have had with the last few clients.

The last few clients that interviewed me for a position as an independent contractor were more about sitting around the table talking cr@p than anything else.
The first half an hour or so was tech talk where they assessed my skill level - and I assessed their requirements - then it just goes into talking about whatever. And actually having an enjoyable interview.
No tech tests or anything like that. Just general chit chat and as you say - assessing from both sides how the fit is.

I have maintained relationships with some of these clients - and staff - even after the contract ended.

I prefer this method of interviewing. When it is just tech and tests - how does either side know if there is a good fit or not?
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I did a tech test when I got my current job (3+ years ago) and then had 2 subsequent interviews (one with ops manager and hr and one with the MD) and both were basically about "fit" with a little bit of "career progression" stuff thrown in. I had an "interview" of sorts with the MD and ops manager of another company and we only really discussed their business and strategy etc and absolutely no questions about my family life, goals, weaknesses and whatnot. They basically just figured from that convo that this guy can do the job and were all too happy to offer it to me.
 
Ancalagon said:
What is the point in asking?
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You seem to have trouble thinking outside you little box so let me illustrate with a story.

We were looking for a IT procurement officer. Our plan is that this person perform well and follow a career path relating to procurement and be procurement manager in two to three years and then move on to end user services and procurement lead for the whole group after 5 years.

We interviewed some candidates who looked great on paper, but when asked about their long term plans one guy said he wants to get out of procurement eventually and into software development; the other wants to get into a civil engineering company like ours and do engineering design work.

The candidate we chose wants to have a career in procurement and is planning to complete a procurement related qualification.

Did she lie to us to get the job? Maybe. Yes there is that risk. But it's still better than the guy who you know is going to make plans to leave soon.

Not asking what a candidates long term plans are is just stupid.
 
Ejeckt said:
You seem to have trouble thinking outside you little box so let me illustrate with a story.
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Thanks for the insult - clearly since you are unable to defend your position, you resort to insults.

And it is you who are stuck inside your own little box - I am an entrepreneur.

We were looking for a IT procurement officer. Our plan is that this person perform well and follow a career path relating to procurement and be procurement manager in two to three years and then move on to end user services and procurement lead for the whole group after 5 years.

We interviewed some candidates who looked great on paper, but when asked about their long term plans one guy said he wants to get out of procurement eventually and into software development; the other wants to get into a civil engineering company like ours and do engineering design work.

The candidate we chose wants to have a career in procurement and is planning to complete a procurement related qualification.

Did she lie to us to get the job? Maybe. Yes there is that risk. But it's still better than the guy who you know is going to make plans to leave soon.

Not asking what a candidates long term plans are is just stupid.
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Let me know how long that person lasts. They will move on, and you know it. They may not even have lied to you, but one day, they will get bored and want to move. So the question you asked, and the answer you got, is completely meaningless. The person that you hired, will grow and change, and one day, might want to become something else.

So the question becomes, if the employee is going to grow and change, how can the company provide her with a role that will be mutually beneficial? If she is bored where she is, she will not be productive. Give her an interesting role, and she will be productive. Try to keep someone in a role that they are not happy with, and they will quit.

Things are never static in a company, and I think its a mistake to put people into silos, and assume that a procurement person can never, and should never, become a software developer. Or that a software developer could not become a salesperson. You want somebody static and unchanging, to perform a role day after day without getting bored, but people arent built like that.

EDIT: I'd be more suspicious of someone who has no ambition to grow and change. To me, that speaks of someone who just wants to do the bare minimum so that they can collect a salary.
 
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