How far will you make it without a degree

[Ancalagon]

There's another aspect to consider.

So, sometimes you will hear people saying, Bill Gates didn't have a degree and he turned out okay. And they will give a long list of examples of people who never finished their university degrees and went on to make billions. One notable exception is Elon Musk, who has two bachelors degrees (one in economics, one in physics). I think Zuckerberg graduated but I'm not sure.

Anyway, to those people I say, Bill Gates would have made billions or at the very least tens of millions with or without a degree. It didn't matter to him. If he'd stayed in college, maybe Microsoft would have been delayed. Maybe he would have ended up as the CEO of Oracle or something. The point is, Bill Gates had it made just by being Bill Gates. A degree would not have ruined him.

Not all of us are so lucky. Not all of us are the Bill Gates of the world. For a lot of us, a degree helps you get your foot in the door, helps your CV stand out, and definitely helps with immigration. Being born in the USA, immigration wasn't an issue for Bill Gates or any of the other tech billionaires.

 

[cguy]

Actually, it isn't.

I've been interviewed by companies (Including the current and past one I worked for) where degrees are absolutely required and still I ended up being shortlisted after taking a chance and submitting my CV anyway.
The current is a NASDAQ listed company and the previous place I was at was also listed.

It is - to explain further: If, as you say, you don’t have a degree and most of the senior people you know don’t have a degree, then you are in an environment that doesn’t require a degree. There’s really not much more to it, but to realize that this is more an effect of the industry/type-of-work you are doing, than their education or lack thereof. Almost all of my managers have had doctorates, because I do the type of work that requires a doctorate - this doesn’t mean that I believe you need a doctorate to be a senior employee in the general case.

A degree is absolutely something that everyone should pursue and will definitely be advantageous.
However, those of us without it is still able to reach the same level of success with lots of hard work.

Yes, and I have never disputed that, in fact, I have already stated that. Not sure if you are still addressing me here.

 

[cguy]

There's another aspect to consider.

So, sometimes you will hear people saying, Bill Gates didn't have a degree and he turned out okay. And they will give a long list of examples of people who never finished their university degrees and went on to make billions. One notable exception is Elon Musk, who has two bachelors degrees (one in economics, one in physics). I think Zuckerberg graduated but I'm not sure.

Anyway, to those people I say, Bill Gates would have made billions or at the very least tens of millions with or without a degree. It didn't matter to him. If he'd stayed in college, maybe Microsoft would have been delayed. Maybe he would have ended up as the CEO of Oracle or something. The point is, Bill Gates had it made just by being Bill Gates. A degree would not have ruined him.

Not all of us are so lucky. Not all of us are the Bill Gates of the world. For a lot of us, a degree helps you get your foot in the door, helps your CV stand out, and definitely helps with immigration. Being born in the USA, immigration wasn't an issue for Bill Gates or any of the other tech billionaires.

Agreed. Bill Gates was also a perfect confluence - being at the right place, at the right age, just as possibly the biggest technological booms in history was warming up. Him, Jobs, Zuckerberg, etc. were serendipitously located in every way. The vast majority of technical entrepreneurial successes are well qualified (Bezos, Brinn, Page, Hastings, Huang, Etc.), and of not, most of their senior staff are (Nadella, Schroeofer, Cook, etc.).

People who cite BG or SJ, either don’t know history, stats or both.

 

[vic777]

Will my salary stagnate? Would I not be able to immigrate if push comes to shove?

It won't be impossible to immigrate, but it is much, much easier to compete if you have a degree. Most people I work with have a masters level degree and we receive applications from all over the world. The problem isn't that the self-taught people aren't as good - its that your application might get pushed to the bottom of the pile and it is hard to stand out.

Also, consider that there are certain aspects which you get taught in the degree which not all self-taught people discover on their own, which greatly helps you to think a certain way and approach problems a certain way: theory of computing, discrete mathematics, etc.

 

[butters89]

You might struggle to get interviews if HR screens your CV based on degree. You will struggle to immigrate. For most countries, you get points for your degree/s which add positively to your immigration application. Rather do at least a bachelors via correspondence. You might regret not having the piece of paper one day.

Agree. I was lazy as can be, but realised that at some point I would reach my ceiling due to only having Matric, regardless of whether I was amazing or not. That was one of the major reasons I decided to complete my BCom Accounting

 

[[)roi(]]

There's another aspect to consider.

So, sometimes you will hear people saying, Bill Gates didn't have a degree and he turned out okay. And they will give a long list of examples of people who never finished their university degrees and went on to make billions. One notable exception is Elon Musk, who has two bachelors degrees (one in economics, one in physics). I think Zuckerberg graduated but I'm not sure.

Anyway, to those people I say, Bill Gates would have made billions or at the very least tens of millions with or without a degree. It didn't matter to him. If he'd stayed in college, maybe Microsoft would have been delayed. Maybe he would have ended up as the CEO of Oracle or something. The point is, Bill Gates had it made just by being Bill Gates. A degree would not have ruined him.

Not all of us are so lucky. Not all of us are the Bill Gates of the world. For a lot of us, a degree helps you get your foot in the door, helps your CV stand out, and definitely helps with immigration. Being born in the USA, immigration wasn't an issue for Bill Gates or any of the other tech billionaires.

Sure, but a more appropriate citation would be somebody like John Carmack.

 

[Cius]

I work in development in the financial industry and where I work we hardly have anyone without a degree. Out of the 60 odd people I have worked with over the past 13 years only two that I knew of did not have a degree and both got in via the same route. They worked for a vendor or with us via a group technology department and showed such incredible talent they where poached. It is fairly hard to get into some areas at least without the degree but if you are really good it will not slow you down much.

As mentioned, though, for emigrating it is a very different story.

 

[cguy]

Sure, but a more appropriate citation would be somebody like John Carmack.

An interesting data point is that pretty much every technical role (and even PM roles) at Oculus (Carmack is the CTO), has at least a Bachelors degree listed as a minimum requirement. I am sure they are quite open to someone with the right experience regardless (and such a person would come from a different channel), but are also aware that having these positions “open for all”, is far from efficient.

https://www.facebook.com/careers/areas-of-work/oculus/?teams[0]=Oculus&page=1

 

[[)roi(]]

An interesting data point is that pretty much every technical role (and even PM roles) at Oculus (Carmack is the CTO), has at least a Bachelors degree listed as a minimum requirement. I am sure they are quite open to someone with the right experience regardless (and such a person would come from a different channel), but are also aware that having these positions “open for all”, is far from efficient.

https://www.facebook.com/careers/areas-of-work/oculus/?teams[0]=Oculus&page=1

According to who... you?
The right resource would have proven themselves capable irrespectively; as Carmack and others have. A manager or varsity that lowers the bar is only shooting themselves in the foot and doing a big disservice to the candidates they let slip through... and before you say... "that's why a degree..." -- remember I've on more than one occasion debunked the notion that degrees are a surety of anything; even Harvard and Stanford have lowered their admissions bar and certification to play to a gallery e.g. of those trumpeting leftist identity politics.

...but as I noted I do see the merit in obtaining a degree but that's for self enrichment only, not for any of the tendentious reasons that have been put forward so far.

 

[cguy]

According to who... you?

According to Facebook/Oculus' hiring policy. Do you think that they set minimum job requirements to be less efficient when hiring?

The right resource would have proven themselves capable irrespectively; as Carmack and others have.

... which is exactly what I said ...

A manager or varsity that lowers the bar is only shooting themselves in the foot and doing a big disservice to the candidates they let slip through... and before you say... "that's why a degree..." -- remember I've on more than one occasion debunked the notion that degrees are a surety of anything; even Harvard and Stanford have lowered their admissions bar and certification to play to a gallery e.g. of those trumpeting leftist identity politics.

What on earth are you on about? You are aware that the degree is a minimum requirement, and not a maximum requirement, right?

...but as I noted I do see the merit in obtaining a degree but that's for self enrichment only, not for any of the tendentious reasons that have been put forward so far.

Yeah, doing a degree to get a better job is very tendentious...

 

[CT_Biker]

@cguy John Carmack does not have a degree at all, he and John Romero and as a matter of fact, nor does Gabe Newell.

 

[CT_Biker]

Before @cguy and @[)roi(| have at each other until either one of them gets bored.

We have established something here:
- cguy and roi are very technically minded, they have both worked with degreed and non-degreed programmers of VARYING PROFICIENCIES/CAPABILITIES.
- You can progress pretty far without a degree.
- No one mentioned how long, or how quickly they were able to do so
- No one without a degree mentioned what motivation they would need in order to obtain a degree relevant to the field of Computer Sciences, Informatics or Mathmatics.

You are all people who are steeped in logic every day, lets be constructive.

|)roi(| - you are untaggable.

 

[[)roi(]]

@cguy John Carmack does not have a degree at all, he and John Romero and as a matter of fact, nor does Gabe Newell.

...and according to @cguy's standard... facebook screwed up royally hiring Carmack.

 

[cguy]

@cguy John Carmack does not have a degree at all, he and John Romero and as a matter of fact, nor does Gabe Newell.

I’m well aware of that. I’m also aware that they are exceptions,

 

[cguy]

...and according to @cguy standard... facebook screwed up royally hiring Carmack.

You, my friend, are either illiterate, or a moron.

 

[[)roi(]]

You, my friend, are either illiterate, or a moron.

Shame, when you lose the debate you resort to insults... well done.

Side note:
Did you vote for Hillary by any chance; because you sound like a lot of the democrats I've met.

 

[CT_Biker]

I’m well aware of that. I’m also aware that they are exceptions,

Fair enough yes. I am not refusing you that.

You can be very long winded from time to which makes it particularly easy to misplace the meaning behind what you are saying and sometimes it can be taken of context or missed completely.

Also, you and roi argue really similar points - very often.

One final note. I am not mediating between the two of you, I could give two shits if the two of you actually get along. However, you and roi are potential knowledge bases on this here forum. Realize that.

 

[cguy]

Shame, when you lose the debate you resort to insults... well done.

Side note:
Did you vote for Hillary by any chance; because you sound like a lot of the democrats I've met.

There is no debate here. Pretty much every well articulated comment I have posted has been responded to by something resembling "Duuhhh - here's something you didn't say, that I disagree with, because I don't read good". I am simply choosing to not indulge stupidity. Nighty night.

 

[[)roi(]]

There is no debate here. Pretty much every well articulated comment I have posted has been responded to by something resembling "Duuhhh - here's something you didn't say, that I disagree with, because I don't read good". I am simply choosing to not indulge stupidity. Nighty night.

Hahaha... shame sounds like I hit a nerve.
If you truly interpret what I wrote as the above paraphrase; then it is you who should take a hard look in the mirror, because like all democrats I've met, your counters are either lame or non-substantive or both.

 

[[)roi(]]

- No one mentioned how long, or how quickly they were able to do so
- No one without a degree mentioned what motivation they would need in order to obtain a degree relevant to the field of Computer Sciences, Informatics or Mathmatics.

I completed my degrees only in the latter part of my life; primarily as a way to focus on areas of mathematic (FP related) that were of interest to me; and formalising it made it easier to allot time for it.
... meaning for the majority of my time I did not have a degree and it never hindered me in any way; neither locally or internationally, and hence my approach is not measure a person solely on the degrees they brandish.

Reality is if degrees were all that mattered to ensure success then South Africa and America wouldn't have so many degreed people flipping burgers.

|)roi(| - you are untaggable.

I take it that has something to do with the name.