TheHiveMind
Banned
Which has no significance outside of your own head.
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'I am a non-voting Atheist'
- Thread starter TELESPHORE
- Start date
Which has no significance outside of your own head.
murraybiscuit
Executive Member
maybe you could start an anarchist libertarian political party
An anarchic political party? Slightly paradoxical, methinks ;-)
In any event that would be an absurd action to take as I do not seek power, or to rule over people, I merely wish to extol the basic fact that just because a government creates a law does not make that law legitimate, whether the government is democratic or otherwise.
I literally cannot believe that there are people on this board arguing that taxation is not theft, and that it does not involve coercion, that it's all voluntary. Madness.
porchrat
Honorary Master
Of course you consent. You choose to remain a citizen of this country and in doing so accept everything that goes along with it. It is all a choice. If you don't wish to remain a citizen then you don't have to pay tax. If you were being forced then there would be no way out. Nobody is forcing you. There is a way out. Go ahead. Head to your nearest home affairs office now and renounce your citizenship! Fight the power! Never trust anyone over 30 man!
No by not voting you are merely not exercising your democratic rights as a citizen of this country. Only by renouncing your citizenship are you withdrawing your consent to the entire charade.
So put your actions where your mouth is. Renounce your citizenship.
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Don't be foolish, renouncing citizenship (even if legally possible) does not exempt you from taxation or from the monopoly of force the State exercises over all subjects within its territory. That's the whole point of a State. It's also the point of one of my counter-arguments, have as much voting and democracy as you like, but leave me out of it because, if it is really so grand, then why would the State need to use violence and coercion in the first place?
It always amuses me how no matter what composition the government is people always revert to a nationalist bent when anybody points out the cracks in the status quo. In any case, I did like how you graduated taxation from being blunt theft (pay or else) to extortion (pay or leave). Once again, this does not address the fundamental point that if I acted in the same way as the government in private society I would be a criminal, and yet the State is exempt?
Once again I must ask why you believe this to be legitimate?
Don't bother hard rain, I've tried explaining to these people that you cannot just assume the government is entitled to the fruits of your labour, and thus by living here you automatically give consent (As if the government owned all land), but they don't get it.
It is much too difficult an idea.
Its much more simple to say person A is entitled to the fruits of person B's by virtue of the power they have over person B...and the consent of others that A may take from B.
And apparently when a mugger comes to you with a gun to your head, apparently there is a way out?
Any way, it actually is a democratic right not to vote. You see without a law preventing people from voting (E.G Law that says persons under 18 may not vote), then automatically everyone can vote, as there is nothing preventing them from doing so.
You do not need someone to write in a code that now you can vote, in order to vote. Technically speaking.
It is my choice and right not to vote. You think it is my (The non-voters) fault for any political mess we get, but that is a result of the people in power, who are put there by the majority of voters.
Let me give you an example to explain why your position is absurd. Imagine you are in a crowd of people, and a mugger sticks a gun to your head, now you have a gun and you try to use it, but alas the mugger has mates, so you are outnumbered and outgunned (Majority Rule) and being armed has no effect. So in other words, the majority (More guns than you) get their way and they win, at your expense.
Now I am a member of the crowd you are in and are decided not to carry a gun with me (For whatever reason, perhaps I know muggers do their thing in packs and thus it would be futile to carry a gun), because I am unarmed I cannot do anything, and perhaps I get mugged to along with you.
You are saying I am to blame for both of us getting mugged. You are also saying if we had enough guns, we could mug them on our terms instead of getting mugged on theirs.
I don't believe in mugging people, so I decide not to carry a gun. Maybe that means I get mugged, maybe not. But I am certainly not to blame for people getting mugged. And I certainly don't deserve to be jailed as some of you here have actually suggested.
That is why your argument is fundementally absurd.
Yes, we may get hurt by not voting. But I don't want to be apart of a system that encourages people to grab power so they get THEIR way instead of others ways.
I want to decentralise and remove power from people, this prevents people from having the ability to exploit others, if you simply are unable to exploit others, the result is no exploitation. (If no one votes, no one gets power. As we have found it recently you do need the support of the people to govern, even if you are a tyrant, otherwise it all goes to #&@*.)
Why is my position so abhorrent to you? Why are you blaming ME for putting others in power and blaming ME for THEIR actions? Why have some people on this forum proclaimed I just go to jail for this.
I have harmed/hurt no one, yet I deserve my freedom to be taken away?
Shame on you. What is worse is not your position, but the way people here come across. As if they somehow have the moral highground, as if they are correct and just and righteous.
You are not correct or just or righteous. You are just a bunch of sore losers. You are outgunned/outmanned in a game where the rules are those with power win, and you are blaming those who decide not to play by these absurd rules for your loss.
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Okay, say you are in a war. Everyone is killing each other, and yet you stay where you are since you don't want to get involved. Then the war comes to you and drags you into it, but you insist you don't want to be part of the war. Someone offers you a gun to protect you and your family, but you refuse since you didn't start the war, nor do you approve of it, so you refuse to take part. While you're standing there refusing to take part, your wife, and children get raped and killed. Now you ask them why they raped and killed your wife and children. The one group responds, "Coz we felt like it" and the opposing group calls you a fool since they tried to protect your family, yet all you did was stand and watch.
Now was your decision to not get involved right or wrong, or was it just stupid?
It's exactly the same thing with voting. The ANC is at war with the other parties. Each party points out the other parties faults. The ANC rapes you using taxes. The constitution get's twisted by stupid people who should not be in parliament, and some of the things you used to do get's outlawed. Instead you do nothing since you don't approve of the war. You refuse to support any side since each side has their faults. You alone are righteous. You may have a right not to take part in the war, yet the war happens around you and engulfs everything you do. You alone cannot end the war. Even if you unite with other people who refuse to join the war, the war with engulf you. So what do you do? Do you simply ignore the war happening around you?
Now was your decision to not get involved right or wrong, or was it just stupid?
It's exactly the same thing with voting. The ANC is at war with the other parties. Each party points out the other parties faults. The ANC rapes you using taxes. The constitution get's twisted by stupid people who should not be in parliament, and some of the things you used to do get's outlawed. Instead you do nothing since you don't approve of the war. You refuse to support any side since each side has their faults. You alone are righteous. You may have a right not to take part in the war, yet the war happens around you and engulfs everything you do. You alone cannot end the war. Even if you unite with other people who refuse to join the war, the war with engulf you. So what do you do? Do you simply ignore the war happening around you?
It's not a war, Myagi, it's a Mexican Stand-Off. This is what competitive democratic representation looks like: http://devioustheatre.com/assets/Scratcher-Mexican-Stand-Off.jpg
So yes, I will continue to opt-out. Your appeals to constitutionalism are also silly. The constitution is not legitimate either.
So yes, I will continue to opt-out. Your appeals to constitutionalism are also silly. The constitution is not legitimate either.
TELESPHORE
Senior Member
- Joined
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HUH?
The constitution is not a consensual agreement, it's a government fig leaf. Nowhere does the constitution explicitly condemn State theft or State violence, in fact, it explicitly "authorizes" it. Nevertheless, even if the constitution were like its American counter-part, or even the far more liberty-minded Articles of Confederation (which was the precursor to the U.S. constitution) clearly neither of these documents limited government expansion or malfeasance in any meaningful way. To put it succinctly, constitutions are dead-letters.
alloytoo
Honorary Master
Nonsense, you're just sitting around whinging. If you don't what to accept the responsibilties that attach to the rights you possess, then you should remove yourself from society.
alloytoo
Honorary Master
Remove yourself from the territory.
Not true, if you provide a service you are certainly able to request payment and if someone uses your service without payment you certainly have both options available to you - pay or leave & pay or else.
If you reject the idea of governments and their services then you have no choice but to find a place more suited to your desires.
To believe Libertarianism philosophy at this level is to take a total and complete leave of absence from reality.
alloytoo
Honorary Master
Yet the reality the only way to join in and protect my family would be to kill and rape someone else's family. (Only way to prevent someone else's guy from being in power is to put my guy in power). That is what voting is.
I would try and protect my family in which ever way I can without joining in the killing and raping. Which is what you are asking me to do.
As I and Rain have repeatedly said. In essence we do not think the rules (I.E. Killing and raping) are just and ethical and thus want no part of it.
You don't have a problem with the rules, you just want to make sure it is you doing the killing the raping.
N
My first and foremost responsibility is to myself. My ethical principles do not allow to to argue I have a right to determine who is in power and determine who tells everyone under which rules and principles they may live their lives.
It is like this. I think everyone is allowed to have their own values and opinions (Religion etc.) as long as they do not force them on others.
You can be a crazy born again christian, or a wacky witch. If you are happy. Great. If you are not forcing your values on me or trying to convert me or harming me or my proprety. Great.
I do not feel you have a right to dictate to me how I should live. You and the friggin Prez. Thus I do not think I have the right to dictate how you should live.
It is not hard.
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
and yet... that is not what voting is all about. Voting is not you forcing your rights or opinions on others.
It is you saying you will work along with the community to find a common consensus on what is best for all.
It is not hard.
It is you saying you will work along with the community to find a common consensus on what is best for all.
It is not hard.
HapticSimian
Honorary Master
Here's the bit I don't get: Out here in the real world our country is teetering on the edge. If the ANC get a large enough majority representation the will steer the country straight into the abyss. Responsible citizens have a duty to their country and fellow citizens to ward against them becoming a complete oligarchy. The only practical means available to ordinary citizens is their vote. You can dance around the issue all you like, and appeal to your principles until the cows come home, but if you do not vote you fail your countrymen. Your inaction is to the country's detriment. You will be the principled straw that eventually breaks the camel's back.
alloytoo
Honorary Master
You have a responsibility toward the society in which you live, and from which your rights derive.
There is a lot one can do for society without the need to vote.
Imo voting is the minimal thing anyone can do for society. Especially the citizens that vote every four years and then sit on their ass for the next four years expecting miracles. I really think we got democracy wrong. Ideally it should not matter who is appointed to office in a democratic country. For the government's job is to keep the upkeep of the country and not meddle with the citizens lives. It shouldn't be majority rule. It should be majority chooses who does the upkeep. What should rule is the constitution of the country in conjunction with the scientific method to deal with problems. What provides us with freedoms is our constitution and not some appointed government. Essentially I am saying people should have the right to rule themselves without meddling of their appointed officials.
Government(s?) has forgotten their duty. How would they not? Have you seen the credentials which some of these appointed people hold? Its like phoning an electrician to come do the plumbing at ones house.
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