Not arguing for higher costs at all, rather a reseller model for ISPs. But I thought the forum would also welcome rationality in argument. There are technical flaws and am concerned with the consequence of irrational recommendations incase the stop broadband rollout altogether.
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ICASA report has huge technical flaws !!!
- Thread starter ayanda
- Start date
See ayanda's post here: http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/feedback/feedbacks.asp
a bit down the page
a bit down the page
That interpretation is not correct - as I understand it, the over-riding consideration is the universal access obligation, to which cross-subsidising issues are subordinate. That obligation implies spending money on network infrastructure, not ripping-off the public to maintain shareholder dividends or profit margins. You can check the telecomms Act if you want - I don't have the energy.ayanda said:
arf9999
MyBroadband Member
The real issue is one of monopolistic practice. Yes, their ADSL equipment requires maintenance, but in fact the current charges are profiteering. The best solution would be for Telkom to charge for initiating the service once off, after which the charge that they bill the ISPs should include the ADSL loop maintenance.ayanda said:
edit: Welcome to MyADSL
edit2: Yes there are some technical inaccuracies in the report. But Telkom is probably largely to blame. Their intransigence and blatant misrepresentation of facts at the hearings would confuse anyone. They had their chance to play with open cards and wasted it. Throughout the report it is shown how their claims are rejected again and again. Now they will be regulated. shame.
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ayanda said:
daffy said:
The problem ayanda is that they are grossly overcharging for a service that largely is already in place, its a charged based on perceived value of the service rather than relating to actual costs. In addition (and I'm sure thay Telkom is not stupid in a business sense) the realisation must have come that a limited amount of people can afford the current pricing regieme, so it is stacked higher in favour of profit from smaller numbers, rather than lower, basing profit on sheer volume of users.
My fundamental problem with this (and this is where the ICASA report leans) is that this overpriced service is keeping net density in this country low and limiting small businesses (actually all businesses) from taking advantage of the internet.
Finally Telkom has enjoyed a monopoly for a long time, and unfortunately this does not come without a social responsibility, and ICASA has echoed the sentiments on this forum exactly.
No-one cares about costs, or the recovery thereof. ICASA is ensuring that telecoms are affordable to South africans, and they are not. And this is Telkom's doing.
There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, at which I will do a lot of pointing and laughing.
Highflyer_GP
Honorary Master
ayanda if you're somebody from telkom parading on the forum as a member of the public, then i'm sorry but this is just sick on telkom's part.
they now have a 24mbit line for less than 30 pounds a month - and this is INCLUSIVE of isp costs. in other words, they dont have to pay adsl rental fees. maybe if telkom would get off their arses they will realise that every other country is moving forward with higher speeds and lower prices, telkom on the other hand are setting our economy back with lower speeds at high prices. im sorry but the adsl fee payable to telkom is simply not justifiable, icasa acknowledge this & the public acknowledge this. in other countries, "maintenance" is taken care of by a small amount contributed within isp fees towards the fixed line operators.
read here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/21/be_broadband/
they now have a 24mbit line for less than 30 pounds a month - and this is INCLUSIVE of isp costs. in other words, they dont have to pay adsl rental fees. maybe if telkom would get off their arses they will realise that every other country is moving forward with higher speeds and lower prices, telkom on the other hand are setting our economy back with lower speeds at high prices. im sorry but the adsl fee payable to telkom is simply not justifiable, icasa acknowledge this & the public acknowledge this. in other countries, "maintenance" is taken care of by a small amount contributed within isp fees towards the fixed line operators.
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Hi Ayanda,
Your logic may have some merit, unfortunately you have applied it reversely.
Let's take you thru the real steps of a broadband connection.
1. We pay R477.00 per month for NOTHING - think about it - NOTHING.
We already pay R404.00 for a port on local loop at DSLAM.
We still continue to pay R90.00 for the voice capability on the SAME COPPER.
2. BEFORE we have any service or capability we MUST pay a DOUBLE rental.
3. In 1. and 2. above we have ACCESS but we have NO CAPABILITY.
We have paid R404.00 upfront and then R567.00 per month for NOTHING.
4. The clever guys at ICASA, who understand telecommunications pretty well, have identified this strategy by Telkom
and quite correctly disagree with it.
5. ICASA disagree with 1. and 2. above because nowhere in the world could any decent telecomms get away with this -
only our dear monopoly.
So I trust that you agree that 1. and 2. above are totally unacceptable and your assertion that ICASA are fools is completely wrong. Perhaps you were misled by some telkom diehard ?
So far in 1. and 2. above we still don't have any functionality - because functionality costs some MORE money.
Instead of Telkom providing something for nothing as you falsely believe it is us who ARE paying a lot for NOTHING.
Your logic may have some merit, unfortunately you have applied it reversely.
Let's take you thru the real steps of a broadband connection.
1. We pay R477.00 per month for NOTHING - think about it - NOTHING.
We already pay R404.00 for a port on local loop at DSLAM.
We still continue to pay R90.00 for the voice capability on the SAME COPPER.
2. BEFORE we have any service or capability we MUST pay a DOUBLE rental.
3. In 1. and 2. above we have ACCESS but we have NO CAPABILITY.
We have paid R404.00 upfront and then R567.00 per month for NOTHING.
4. The clever guys at ICASA, who understand telecommunications pretty well, have identified this strategy by Telkom
and quite correctly disagree with it.
5. ICASA disagree with 1. and 2. above because nowhere in the world could any decent telecomms get away with this -
only our dear monopoly.
So I trust that you agree that 1. and 2. above are totally unacceptable and your assertion that ICASA are fools is completely wrong. Perhaps you were misled by some telkom diehard ?
So far in 1. and 2. above we still don't have any functionality - because functionality costs some MORE money.
Instead of Telkom providing something for nothing as you falsely believe it is us who ARE paying a lot for NOTHING.
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Byrd
Well-Known Member
Ayanda
I would like to ask a few direct questions
1. Just to make sure there are no hidden agendas - Are you associated with or employed by Telkom in any way. If so - how?
2. Did Telkom cock-up in the first place when they split line rental and Internet access?. It sounds to me like Telkom are the ones that dont know how to run an ADSL service.
3. Considering that Telkom charges over R2000 for a router that is not nearly as feature full as those that retail in the free market for around R500 - Do you expect forum members to believe that Telkom is not ripping them off in other areas as well?
4. Do you beleive Telkom is Ripping us off and making huge profits?
5. Considering that Telkom was initialy a state owned entity - do you beleive that it is fair that it is now treated in a way that denies this history - ie as a normal business entity?
I would like to ask a few direct questions
1. Just to make sure there are no hidden agendas - Are you associated with or employed by Telkom in any way. If so - how?
2. Did Telkom cock-up in the first place when they split line rental and Internet access?. It sounds to me like Telkom are the ones that dont know how to run an ADSL service.
3. Considering that Telkom charges over R2000 for a router that is not nearly as feature full as those that retail in the free market for around R500 - Do you expect forum members to believe that Telkom is not ripping them off in other areas as well?
4. Do you beleive Telkom is Ripping us off and making huge profits?
5. Considering that Telkom was initialy a state owned entity - do you beleive that it is fair that it is now treated in a way that denies this history - ie as a normal business entity?
ajax
Executive Member
ayanda said:
Ayanda, yes, please answer Byrd's questions and then also mine.
You seem to know how SA's network is built/configured. Describe then how the typical network looks in a country where no "connectivity rental" fees are charged?
If there's no difference in the network, there can't be a difference in the pricing model.
Thank you nevertheless for "gooing a klip in die bos" (english: throwing a stone in the bush, I think...). I for one like differing opinions and the discussions that flow forth from it.
1. NO.
2. Cannot disagree the access price is higher than other countries but does not mean adsl access=line rental and does not mean it is FREE of costs.
My proposal : bundle dsl access with bandwidth and sell to isps at wholesale price and let isps forward sell to customers. That is how it is sold in the UK. the risk is that the isps wont be transparent on pricing of the different elements.
The argument is , let us keeppressure on pricing without perpetuating that dsl access should not be chargeable because it is everywhere in the world. The only difference would be : who gets charged ? the end user or an isp?
2. Cannot disagree the access price is higher than other countries but does not mean adsl access=line rental and does not mean it is FREE of costs.
My proposal : bundle dsl access with bandwidth and sell to isps at wholesale price and let isps forward sell to customers. That is how it is sold in the UK. the risk is that the isps wont be transparent on pricing of the different elements.
The argument is , let us keeppressure on pricing without perpetuating that dsl access should not be chargeable because it is everywhere in the world. The only difference would be : who gets charged ? the end user or an isp?
The ADSL line rental makes up the bulk of the cost of the service and is therefore the problem under consideration.
Their trump card with the SNO would most likely be to do away with the line rental completely. What about the cost of maintaining the local loop then? And why do other countries not charge ADSL 'line rental'? What is Telkom doing wrong?
Their trump card with the SNO would most likely be to do away with the line rental completely. What about the cost of maintaining the local loop then? And why do other countries not charge ADSL 'line rental'? What is Telkom doing wrong?
In countries where the local loop is unbundled, the isp rents the line from the telco, builds own dsl access plus own ipnet and sells the bundled offering to the user. The isp stills pays line rental to the telco so it can still maintain the local loop.
The isp therefore incurrs all the capex assocoiated with dsl access and transport. My point axactly is this network still needs augmenting and maintanance and that is charged to customer.
The isp therefore incurrs all the capex assocoiated with dsl access and transport. My point axactly is this network still needs augmenting and maintanance and that is charged to customer.
ayanda said:
I don't think you are interpreting it correctly. It is a matter of symantics. The fact is that there should be a once off installation fee that can be levied by Telkom for installation. Telkom is currently covering the installation and equipment cost within months if not less. But then they keep on charging as if that cost will never be covered. ICASA doesn't have any intention of allowing Telkom to fail in supplying the service.
Telkom is simply overcharging the people of this country for (what I believe is now) an essential service needed for development....
ayanda said:
Hi Ayanda,
now you getting it right - The ISP's rent local loop from the Telco and then
many competing ISP's can sell a product to the public - in other countries.
Here Telkom is firstly getting an exhorbitant double line rental guaranteed,
shutting out any possible competition from the majority income and gathering
100% of this portion.
Then Telkom take a second shot by selling the smaller portion to ISP's
with whom they then compete with the intention of limiting competition.
ICASA is right - just like in other countries - the LINE RENTAL must go - step ONE.
Oh, and please stop the veiled threats (Vapi included) which hint that you might pull the plug.
If Telkom does not know how to offer broadband at world prices -
send some of your staff overseas to study how it is done.
In Holland you can now get (from ISP's) a bundled broadband and 2000 minutes
(yes 2000 minutes) fixed line telephony for about 35 euros per month.
Here that's going to cost you about R2000.00 and more.
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ayanda said:
They can charge for it. Just not many times over... Once off for installation and then they can make money from providing bandwidth at reasonable prices. Nobody is saying Telkom should not make money. They should just not be allowed to rape the South African public, which for all intents and purposes is held hostage by Telkom.
The government should never have allowed Telkom to go private before opening up the market properly... NEVER!!! THAT LESSON HAS BEEN LEARNED!
Hopefully...
ayanda said:
If Telkom should dare to do this (and they would be stupid if they do) government should simply open up the market completely and allow anybody with enough money to start providing... OPEN MARKET MEANS BETTER COMPETIONS. This will result in better provisioning at better prices to more people... It is all so simple if done right.
