ICASA report has huge technical flaws !!!

Local loop avercharged

The UK model works like this: BT charges the ISP a wholesale price of ~15 UKP (last time I was there - this is now more like 10 UKP or less) for providing a 512k(1024k these days?) connection between the clients equipment and the ISPs equipment. There are no restrictions on this link - eat as much as you like on any port. It is also not an internet service. The ISP then adds an internet link (they have their own pipes leased from whoever gives them the best deal) and email, news etc to this connection and sells it to the client for 5-10 UKP more. Any caps are introduced by the ISP - not BT. Most do not have any caps, or would offer an uncapped service for 5 UKP more.
So from this model we can assume that BT makes a profit on providing the local loop at R150 or less. And this in a country where all costs are considerably more than here. A regular technician will in all probability earn more than R200 000/annum.

Compare that to the SA model: Telkom asks ~R500 for the local loop and an additional ~R250 for the internet/email. And that R250 only buys a capped and shaped service, and you know all the rest. Summary: at least 4 times more expensive in every area for a service that is vastly inferior.

And the argument regularly used is that our international bandwidth costs are so expensive. That has nothing to do with the local loop. No wonder Telkom has recently been harping on the high cost of maintaining the local loop. Taken into account that our labour costs are so much less and Telkom and BT buy their hardware on the same market, our adsl local loop should cost less than R100/month. Given that the voice circuit is R90/month that is about right.

The model changes once the local loop is unbundled of course – for the better of the client.

Side note: Why can some ISPs offer you 30GB for R600 and Telkom charges R250 for 3GB?
 
I think Telkom will unfortunately win this one. I think ICASA should allow VANS to self provide and give 'em full access to the undersea cable. Obviously someone will have to manage access so that it's not abused.

This is a national asset right?
 
Ayanda

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Byrds' other questions you didn't answer.

Byrd said:
3. Considering that Telkom charges over R2000 for a router that is not nearly as feature full as those that retail in the free market for around R500 - Do you expect forum members to believe that Telkom is not ripping them off in other areas as well?

4. Do you beleive Telkom is Ripping us off and making huge profits?

5. Considering that Telkom was initialy a state owned entity - do you beleive that it is fair that it is now treated in a way that denies this history - ie as a normal business entity?
Click to expand...

?????
 
Fact is simply, that Telkscum are overcharging their customers and refrain about 80% of all SA citizens from a reasonable access to telecommunication. (Telephone and Internet) That is fact and cannot be wiped off by some irresponible statements from an incapable overpayed Telscum manager.

The fight has just began, their is still a long way to go and we all know that.
 
Oh, and one more thing from me: How is it possible that other ISPs can sell bandwidth ,THAT THEY BUY FROM TELKOM, for less than what Telkom charges themselves?

You know what? I hope that you'll reply to these questions with honest answers, but I've got a sneaky suspicion that you'll pull an AYCE on us. i.e. completely ignore a straight question and do a run-around.
 
ayanda said:
Am sorry to spoilt the party. But the ICASA report appears not to have been written by anyone with any idea on network designn architecture. The ADSL network beyond local exchange is seperate from the voice network.

The line rental cover network maintainance of the local loop . but adsl access is more than local loop. If Telkom rolls out DSLAMs + ATM network + ESSR exchanges and hands over the traffic to the ISPs IP networks beyond that , who is to pay for the intemediary network , if they are not allowed to charge adsl access ? Who is to pay for ongoing maintanance and upgrades of such ?

I would be suprised if they dont halt their broadband rollout if the CAPEX and OPEX is not recoverable !!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Telkom is in the process of rolling out a new service. Any international business understands that it is necessary to cross-subsidize new businesses while they get off the ground and critical mass is reached. Why is absolutely necessary that Telkom makes a profit from day one. If you look at any large telco in the US, they subsidize their new operations for a number of years before they start seeing profits. Telkom made a R6 billion profit last year.

Every person in this country is charged approx. R100 per for line rental. This fee should be more than enough to cover the costs of providing the ADSL line. once critical mass is reached.
 
Where has Ayanda gone? Tea break? Been nuked? Speachless? Struck down by God for working for Telkom(Satan) ? Anybody?
 
Last edited:
aayanda probable does work for Telkom, who in their right mind would defend them saying that what they offer is free and fair. Dumb ass
 
tsjones said:
The UK model works like this: BT charges the ISP a wholesale price of ~15 UKP (last time I was there - this is now more like 10 UKP or less) for providing a 512k(1024k these days?) connection between the clients equipment and the ISPs equipment. There are no restrictions on this link - eat as much as you like on any port. It is also not an internet service. The ISP then adds an internet link (they have their own pipes leased from whoever gives them the best deal) and email, news etc to this connection and sells it to the client for 5-10 UKP more. Any caps are introduced by the ISP - not BT. Most do not have any caps, or would offer an uncapped service for 5 UKP more.
So from this model we can assume that BT makes a profit on providing the local loop at R150 or less. And this in a country where all costs are considerably more than here. A regular technician will in all probability earn more than R200 000/annum.

Compare that to the SA model: Telkom asks ~R500 for the local loop and an additional ~R250 for the internet/email. And that R250 only buys a capped and shaped service, and you know all the rest. Summary: at least 4 times more expensive in every area for a service that is vastly inferior.

And the argument regularly used is that our international bandwidth costs are so expensive. That has nothing to do with the local loop. No wonder Telkom has recently been harping on the high cost of maintaining the local loop. Taken into account that our labour costs are so much less and Telkom and BT buy their hardware on the same market, our adsl local loop should cost less than R100/month. Given that the voice circuit is R90/month that is about right.

The model changes once the local loop is unbundled of course – for the better of the client.

Side note: Why can some ISPs offer you 30GB for R600 and Telkom charges R250 for 3GB?
Click to expand...

Check out this thread.

It seems the ISP's found a way to fool telkom - which serves them right btw - because they authenticate/cap/shape their own users.

Now back on topic : I really hope ayanda posts again, because all I really want, all I so badly want, is for telkom to show face in this forum and explain to us, in straight-forward english, why the connectivity charge is so high. Why can Chello - Netherlands offer 2Mbps at R 263 p/m (all incl.) ? Why, if I dont have a existing analogue telephone line, and I want an ADSL line installed do I pay once off installation charges for both the analogue line and the ADSL line? Is South Africa's Internet backbone (SAIX) so pathetic that they cant offer residential ADSL packages of 2Mbps? With telkom's turnovers in the billions year after year the public expects them to invest and upgrade. Why ? why? why?...

The fact that we have never received an explanation and telkom wont participate on these forums, leads me to the logical conclusion that they want to hide it from us. If I get a satisfactory breakdown of the costs involved to keep my ADSL line connected to the internet then I will rest my case and cough up.
 
i was really looking forward to an honest answer from ayanda. Come on, even if we dont agree with your answers its still an opinion we would love to hear. If you give any SA citizen the facts about what other countries charge for their telephony services (you mean copper is cheaper overseas?) they will surely be upset and want to know WHY this is the case.

PS: My foot is itching today.
 
jeinnor30 said:
aayanda probable does work for Telkom, who in their right mind would defend them saying that what they offer is free and fair. Dumb ass
Click to expand...
You would be surprised what people believe when their eyes have been closed for so long.
It is just great to know that we as the Members of MyADSL have a common cause and by talking amongst each other have been able to see the truth from the fiction. Like group therapy. At least we know we are not all crazy in our speculations.
It is often hard to break a cycle of propaganda.
Take Josef Goebbels for example. He had most of the public eating out of his hand and they believed him.
 
eye_suc said:
i was really looking forward to an honest answer from ayanda.
Click to expand...

But why should he bother engaging this forum with constructive debate when idiots with only 7 lame postings to their name (yes you Jeinor30) call him a Telkom employee or a dumb ass ???.

It's seems the myadsl "Telkom is evil" Gestapo Mafia has made their point yet again.

I am just glad that loons like that are not hauled out for the ICASA hearings :).
 
Hmmmm........

If i remember correctly didn't telkom say some time back that they had the 2nd best infrastructure in the world.

Am being serious this is what i have heard. "We have a very good infrastructure and just didn't know how to use it" or so what the argument a while back.

Now they say the they need to charge high rates???

Makes no sense.

If they now turn around and say that they don't have any infrastructure to back up their system to be able to charge at a low rate we can slap them again and quote themselves. (currently looking for the quote i read)(was posted before ADSL was introduced)


Anyway i think clean and clear Discussion is the key to this problem.
We need to get telkom into one room with us and the press and then let the saga begin.
 
Tibby

I think some valid points have been made. The fact that Ayanda has as yet not responded to these points is more likely due to the fact that he / she is unable to defend Telkom's position (Not implying the Ayanda works for Telkom) than the fact that some have called him / her a "dumb-ass". We must remember that this is a PUBLIC forum. If one has a mature attitude towards things - you may either respond to that sort of name calling - or you may ignore it. However to not respond entirely is a bit short sited.

Now as to your comments and the topic - have you got any valid input here - either for or against Ayanda's arguments - or are you here simply to blow your own little trumpet as to the way you beleive the forum should respond to certain issues.
 
Byrd said:
Now as to your comments and the topic - have you got any valid input here - either for or against Ayanda's arguments - or are you here simply to blow your own little trumpet as to the way you beleive the forum should respond to certain issues.
Click to expand...

How much is your Telkom bill per month ???.

Mine is R1100 per month.
 
Dastrix said:
I think we need to tread lightly here - not that I for one care what a Telkom mole would think, but we should try and avoid the follwing situation:



It's a game for the public eye of the regulator and the DOC, we need to be careful. Message board tactics will not work in this space.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about that. There are extremely competent people here. Telkom will be hard pressed to make out a case like that. It is unfair to expect every single user here to be an expert anyway. It is a user community built around people who want to find information and those who can provide it. Everybody from total noobs to hackers can be found here...

Relax on this point. MyADSL is open to alternative ideas if they are good ideas...
 
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