Implats workers want to double wages

[w1z4rd]

Have you heard of this place called the United Kingdom? Once upon a time their unions held them ransom but this tough woman came along and put them in their place. Now, workers are still protected and companies have to abide by strict labour safety measures and regulations, BUT, the unions cannot throw their weight around. And it is safe to say working conditions are infinitely superior to the sweat shops of China.

There is a massive difference between voicing your grievances and behaving like a fcking savage and harming the economy in the process. Unions need to be crippled in this country, but they won't.

Yeah, I was reading how laissez-faire policies set them back compared to countries like Finland and Sweden: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state . Now Sweden, Norway and Finland have better GDP (nominal) per capita than the UK.

 

[zippy]

I wonder what would happen if I told my manager I demanded my salary to be doubled?! :wtf:

Do you earn R6250 a month ?

If you do, you should, you are being taken for a ride. You shouldn't take that crap. It's an insult.

 

[thestaggy]

Yeah, I was reading how laissez-faire policies set them back compared to countries like Finland and Sweden: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

I would like to know how much population has to do with that;

Denmark - 5,5 million
Sweden - 9,4 million
Norway - 5 million
Finland - 5,4 million

Norway in particular. Small population coupled with some of the world's richest natural gas & petroleum reserves. It certainly must be easier to satisfy a small, well developed society. According to Wikipedia a third of Sweden's 4,5 million working citizens are university graduates. According to the UN's HDI (Human Development Index) Denmark is the most eduacted country in the world, tied with fellow Scandinavians Finland, Australia and New Zealand.

New Zealand & Australia are others to look at. Small populations that are highly developed socially. These countries, I am afraid, cannot be compared to nations that have as much as 10 times their population, at least not in Norway's case as I believe there is a direct connection between their economic resources, small population and the subsequent high quality of life.

 

[w1z4rd]

I would like to know how much population has to do with that;

Denmark - 5,5 million
Sweden - 9,4 million
Norway - 5 million
Finland - 5,4 million

Norway in particular. Small population coupled with some of the world's richest natural gas & petroleum reserves. It certainly must be easier to satisfy a small, well developed society. According to Wikipedia a third of Sweden's 4,5 million working citizens are university graduates.

Sweden had food riots when it went welfare. You are just saying what you are, because you dont know its history. Norway had a resource push yes. Sweden didnt. Finland was devastated by Soviet occupation.

 

[thestaggy]

Sweden had food riots when it went welfare. You are just saying what you are, because you dont know its history. Norway had a resource push yes. Sweden didnt. Finland was devastated by Soviet occupation.

I know enough to know that Swedish emigration - primarily to the US - at the end of the 19th century was by some deemed to be necessary to avert the total collapse of that country as it could not sustain its population explosion. In fact, mass emigration is also believed to have averted famine and social crisis in Norway as well. There is a direct connection between mass Swedish-Norwegian emigration and food shortages/lack of industrialisation in those countries around the late 19th century.

Hell, there is a reason to believe Viking raids - especially out of Norway - were due to the local population exhausting its agricultural capacity.

What would those countries be like if they never had mass emigration? Pretty clear that there is a connection between population size and prosperity.

You'll find I know a fair bit. I don't thumb suck.

 

[zippy]

Our gold deposits are deep, tabular, narrow : Mechanised mining will not work . Only South Deep / Target Mine have orebodies suited to mechanised mining. Australian mines have shallow, vain, massive orebodies which are suited to mechanised or trackless mining.

Our gold deposits are generally richer (high grade) . This is why they are worth the high investment risk, high mining costs.

Our gold mines are a bigger social risk (safety, health, environment). This is one of the reasons AngloAmerican has pulled out of gold in SA. Our environmental, social and safety legislations are being tightened. This makes gold mining expensivee, even at post-mine closure.

South African gold mines are only worth the investment risk because the govt is willing to ignore the fact that the labour force is working in near slavery conditions. They realise they don't have a choice because there are not enough skills in the country to properly develop more manufacturing.

If the miners wages increased then the govt would also earn less tax revenue. A large proportion of miners wages is also sent out of the country. This is why increasing the cash available to miners will not necessarily result in an increase in economic activity in SA. Taxing the producers is the best way to keep money in the country.

South African mines carry more risk for investors than any other countries mines.

These miners are being ripped off. The amount of money they are paid is offensive, even when compared to SA wages. How many of you would be happy to live on what they earn now, never mind their demand of an increase to R12500.

Sadly they also work in a industry which is going up have to shrink massively.

It's a pretty hopeless situation for them, and nobody gives a toss, and they know it

There will be a lot of unemployed, badly educated, pissed off workers with no jobs looking for ways to earn money. Guess how some of them will "earn" money.

 

[Immortal_Souljah]

Marikana-truth.com

 

[eltherza]

Can all these strikes bring down our economy in any significant way?

 

[Ekstasis]

well I'll tell you about another problem that will arise if a RIDICULOUS unskilled labour salary of R12500 gets accepted. Every physically abled black man in this country (apart from those already in professional positions) would apply for a job as a miner @ R12500/m who wouldn't??.......result: new riots because they can't all get jobs

 

[Ekstasis]

Can all these strikes bring down our economy in any significant way?

The mining sector is our biggest source of international income. It's the backbone of the SA economy.

 

[ToxicBunny]

South African gold mines are only worth the investment risk because the govt is willing to ignore the fact that the labour force is working in near slavery conditions. They realise they don't have a choice because there are not enough skills in the country to properly develop more manufacturing.

If the miners wages increased then the govt would also earn less tax revenue. A large proportion of miners wages is also sent out of the country. This is why increasing the cash available to miners will not necessarily result in an increase in economic activity in SA. Taxing the producers is the best way to keep money in the country.

South African mines carry more risk for investors than any other countries mines.

These miners are being ripped off. The amount of money they are paid is offensive, even when compared to SA wages. How many of you would be happy to live on what they earn now, never mind their demand of an increase to R12500.

Sadly they also work in a industry which is going up have to shrink massively.

It's a pretty hopeless situation for them, and nobody gives a toss, and they know it

There will be a lot of unemployed, badly educated, pissed off workers with no jobs looking for ways to earn money. Guess how some of them will "earn" money.

Load of complete codswallop, from start to finish.

 

[Sinbad]

The mining sector is our biggest source of international income. It's the backbone of the SA economy.

More than that - this kind of thing makes international news, and SA's standing as an investment destination takes a severe dive.

 

[w1z4rd]

You'll find I know a fair bit. I don't thumb suck.

Perhaps you do, but your opinion was warped from your lack of knowledge of the Swedish food riots and the failure of their charity system which lead to them becoming a welfare state. I got the feeling you were painting a picture like that they had small populations and loads of cash and then went welfare. Which is a very false perspective. Countries generally go welfare in the worst of times, not the best of times.

 

[Mila]

South African gold mines are only worth the investment risk because the govt is willing to ignore the fact that the labour force is working in near slavery conditions. .

Example please?

They Want a take home salary of R12500.

 

[thestaggy]

Perhaps you do, but your opinion was warped from your lack of knowledge of the Swedish food riots and the failure of their charity system which lead to them becoming a welfare state. I got the feeling you were painting a picture like that they had small populations and loads of cash and then went welfare. Which is a very false perspective. Countries generally go welfare in the worst of times, not the best of times.

What I said was that they are ideally suited to being welfare states. Their population is small, which without doubt makes it easier. It is easier to give one child the best of everything than it is to give 5 children.

 

[w1z4rd]

What I said was that they are ideally suited to being welfare states. Their population is small, which without doubt makes it easier. It is easier to give one child the best of everything than it is to give 5 children.

France, Germany and Canada also went welfare... do they also have tiny populations? France and Germany went that way after WW2 with record debt, poverty and unemployment. Half a decade later its paid off ne?

 

[thestaggy]

Can all these strikes bring down our economy in any significant way?

Yes and it is already hurting us. Strikes = no production = no exports = no income. Strikes also = bad PR = decline in foreign investment.

And seeing as the mining sector makes up an estimated 18% of our GDP, you can see how badly it can hurt us if it goes tits up.

 

[thestaggy]

France, Germany and Canada also went welfare... do they also have tiny populations? France and Germany went that way after WW2 with record debt, poverty and unemployment. Half a decade later its paid off ne?

Germany started implementing state welfare programmes soon after unification in the 1880s, modelling it on the programmes implemented in Prussia. Hell, even Hitler ensured his people were looked after, well, until they started getting the schit bombed out of them and ran out of food. So, well before WW2. I do not know enough of the French or Canadian models.

Explain this; Saudi Arabia, Brunei, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates are all nations that are starting state-sponsored welfare programmes, and all sponsored by oil dollars. And another trend, all aside from Saudi Arabia (which at 28 million is hardly a massive country, but they do pump out more oil than anybody else) all have small populations.

I am terribly sorry, but there is most definitely a strong connection between small populations, high revenues and successful social programmes.

 

[eltherza]

Yes and it is already hurting us. Strikes = no production = no exports = no income. Strikes also = bad PR = decline in foreign investment.

And seeing as the mining sector makes up an estimated 18% of our GDP, you can see how badly it can hurt us if it goes tits up.

Ish, didn't realise it was that much. It's depressing actually.

 

[dlk001]

Yes and it is already hurting us. Strikes = no production = no exports = no income. Strikes also = bad PR = decline in foreign investment.

And seeing as the mining sector makes up an estimated 18% of our GDP, you can see how badly it can hurt us if it goes tits up.

+1

Mining industry is struggling right now. Gold, Platinum, Coal, Iron Ore, Manganese are the backbone of our mining in SA.

Gold is a sunset industry. Although we still have large insitu gold resources, we cannot convert them into minable reserves economically. They are deep and technically challenging.

Platinum absorbed a lot of the Gold industry employment and exports. Closing of platinum mines will be a disaster to our economy. Platinum is our main competitive advantage.

Coal is also a sunset industry but will last longer than the Gold industry. Coal mines are generally mechanized and job creation will never be as high as in gold/platinum.

Iron Ore is one of our competitive advantages. It generally mechanized mining. Steel prices are low at the moment and there will be pressure in this industry.

Manganese mines are a subset of the Iron Ore industry. Many of the manganese projects in northern cape are suffering due to lower steel demand.

In all, the situation is fragile. We need to optimize what we have. We need to mine more, lower the costs, improve safety and lessen the environmental impacts. Last thing we need is a strike.