Intel kills off 8th-gen desktop CPUs

[rambo919]

Every game engine has its flaws. - except Cryengine 1.

Oh.... I remember there were flaws.... I just don't actually remember the flaws.....

 

[CT_Biker]

Lol oh yeah. huge problem with most games as development studio can't possibly support or test all hardware configurations, and especially if you use an in house engine. I don't think I have ever encountered issues with unreal or unity games.

Quite often issues are a result of hardware and driver issues.

But that said, Rambo assuming game assets gets loaded on the fly, is utter rubbish, games preloaded levels assets as needed into swap file, GPU memory and ram.Games assets these days due to the amount of GPU memory and ram load raw assets that has been created using special cache files for loading into the memory ect.

While you could technically run a game like rise of the tomb raider on 4 gig ram, you will require a larger swap files as things needs to be swapped out between system ram and swap file, which will result in poorer FPS whether you have a SSD or HDD making the game almost unplayable, as a result of not enough of the assets being loaded into memory not as a result of using an SSD or HDD.

Which is why games have min ram requirements and the more you have and faster the memory speed is the more of the assets can be loaded into ram memory. However games are high optimized in being able to delete or swap out data between ram and GPU memory and being able to dynamically load and unload data from memory as needed.

SSD or HDD only serves to load data to memory as needed and once loaded stands idle waiting for the next request, games like skyrim and fallout loads level areas in chunks into the memory and relies in instancing of assets meaning you can have one tree or one grass blade rendered and duplicate it a 1000 times but only cost the one render.

You could have a 300 teraflop SSD and your game will still have the exact same frame rate, as a game is dependant on ram, CPU and gpu, HDD or SSD only serves the function of loading to memory.

I wholly agree with you on the fact that hardware and drivers are the no 1 challenge when it comes to gaming on PC

Lol oh yeah. huge problem with most games as development studio can't possibly support or test all hardware configurations, and especially if you use an in house engine. I don't think I have ever encountered issues with unreal or unity games.

Quite often issues are a result of hardware and driver issues.

But that said, Rambo assuming game assets gets loaded on the fly, is utter rubbish, games preloaded levels assets as needed into swap file, GPU memory and ram.Games assets these days due to the amount of GPU memory and ram load raw assets that has been created using special cache files for loading into the memory ect.

While you could technically run a game like rise of the tomb raider on 4 gig ram, you will require a larger swap files as things needs to be swapped out between system ram and swap file, which will result in poorer FPS whether you have a SSD or HDD making the game almost unplayable, as a result of not enough of the assets being loaded into memory not as a result of using an SSD or HDD.

Which is why games have min ram requirements and the more you have and faster the memory speed is the more of the assets can be loaded into ram memory. However games are high optimized in being able to delete or swap out data between ram and GPU memory and being able to dynamically load and unload data from memory as needed.

SSD or HDD only serves to load data to memory as needed and once loaded stands idle waiting for the next request, games like skyrim and fallout loads level areas in chunks into the memory and relies in instancing of assets meaning you can have one tree or one grass blade rendered and duplicate it a 1000 times but only cost the one render.

You could have a 300 teraflop SSD and your game will still have the exact same frame rate, as a game is dependant on ram, CPU and gpu, HDD or SSD only serves the function of loading to memory.

And once the hardware issues are sorted out the issue is squarely on the software side of things, and that is my argument - an SSD isnt going to fix a iffy game engine.

 

[CT_Biker]

Oh.... I remember there were flaws.... I just don't actually remember the flaws.....

I made a mistake, I meant CryEngine2.

As a tech demo, it was near perfect for the time. Every issue I had trying to play Crysis was all hardware related, specifically it was because my GPU(at the time, was a an expensive heap of ****)

 

[rambo919]

I made a mistake, I meant CryEngine2.

As a tech demo, it was near perfect for the time. Every issue I had trying to play Crysis was all hardware related, specifically it was because my GPU(at the time, was a an expensive heap of ****)

The first Far Cry was a exercise in wasted potential yes.

CryEngine2 was not perfect but for me it was one of the best ever engines, at least modding was never a real problem and consolitis had not yet set in.... I sincerely hate FMOD but that's another story.

@wizardofid
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that inefficient loading of assets is a widespread practice, just that there are some games that don't load the whole level into memory at the start as a workaround to the problem of large gamespaces. On some games I have noticed this and on others not. There are many other ways to skin a cat not just the standard ways.

There are also games (though I forget the names) that I have found load external assets on the fly, this is particularly useful (or irritating) when it comes to mods which load dynamically i.e. without having to exit the game or loaded map.

 

[CT_Biker]

The first Far Cry was a exercise in wasted potential yes.

CryEngine2 was not perfect but for me it was one of the best ever engines, at least modding was never a real problem and consolitis had not yet set in.... I sincerely hate FMOD but that's another story.

@wizardofid
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that inefficient loading of assets is a widespread practice, just that there are some games that don't load the whole level into memory at the start as a workaround to the problem of large gamespaces. On some games I have noticed this and on others not. There are many other ways to skin a cat not just the standard ways.

There are also games (though I forget the names) that I have found load external assets on the fly, this is particularly useful (or irritating) when it comes to mods which load dynamically i.e. without having to exit the game or loaded map.

I agreed - I do not care how Crytek managed to build that engine, but whatever they are doing at Crystal Design(engine for Tomb Raider/DeusEx) is as good too.

Top down RTS games...basically how Dota came about lol

 

[rambo919]

I agreed - I do not care how Crytek managed to build that engine, but whatever they are doing at Crystal Design(engine for Tomb Raider/DeusEx) is as good too.

Top down RTS games...basically how Dota came about lol

Shame about whatever they did to the Dawn engine though... even the devs of Mankind Divided say stay away from DX12 we don't know why it falls apart like that

Either way in DX11 the game is beautiful, just a shame they never enabled modding and the AI is so stupid.

But anyway we managed to turn something about CPU upgrades into game engine talk and probably should stop.....

 

[CT_Biker]

Shame about whatever they did to the Dawn engine though... even the devs of Mankind Divided say stay away from DX12 we don't know why it falls apart like that

Either way in DX11 the game is beautiful, just a shame they never enabled modding and the AI is so stupid.

But anyway we managed to turn something about CPU upgrades into game engine talk and probably should stop.....

Game engines are almost as interesting as the games themselves tbh, if not more interesting lol

What is DX? I game in Linux and use AMD, so im used to performance/driver issues.

 

[wizardofid]

The first Far Cry was a exercise in wasted potential yes.

CryEngine2 was not perfect but for me it was one of the best ever engines, at least modding was never a real problem and consolitis had not yet set in.... I sincerely hate FMOD but that's another story.

@wizardofid
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that inefficient loading of assets is a widespread practice, just that there are some games that don't load the whole level into memory at the start as a workaround to the problem of large gamespaces. On some games I have noticed this and on others not. There are many other ways to skin a cat not just the standard ways.

There are also games (though I forget the names) that I have found load external assets on the fly, this is particularly useful (or irritating) when it comes to mods which load dynamically i.e. without having to exit the game or loaded map.

They don't load assets like that....sigh. Assets whether dynamically loaded or after a game level preloads data, there is no on the fly loading. It still needs to be loaded into memory like any other asset, no game will call for an asset not in memory right the instant when it needs to be visible you would have an immediate delay whether you are using an SSD or HDD, as the assets needs to be loaded into memory processed by the CPU and handed over to the GPU for rendering and further processing.

BTW the time the asset is ready to render in game SEVERAL clock cycles would have passed.It just isn't done.

Whatever is needed is loaded in the immediate memory like GPU secondary inactive assets needed is loaded in RAM and any other data will be loaded into the swap file, which can quickly be accessed by the ram, and GPU.

 

[rambo919]

They don't load assets like that....sigh. Assets whether dynamically loaded or after a game level preloads data, there is no on the fly loading. It still needs to be loaded into memory like any other asset, no game will call for an asset not in memory right the instant when it needs to be visible you would have an immediate delay whether you are using an SSD or HDD, as the assets needs to be loaded into memory processed by the CPU and handed over to the GPU for rendering and further processing.

BTW the time the asset is ready to render in game SEVERAL clock cycles would have passed.It just isn't done.

Whatever is needed is loaded in the immediate memory like GPU secondary inactive assets needed is loaded in RAM and any other data will be loaded into the swap file, which can quickly be accessed by the ram, and GPU.

All that being true.... explain why I have in a few games actually had ingame (post map load) performance improvements by running the game from a SSD while the main system was running from a HDD?

At worst there is a immediate delay but running the game from a SSD reduces that delay. Like what happens in FO4 when you move faster than the engine can render and it temporarily freezes..... running the game from a SSD also reduces the time of these freezes mostly eliminating them. This is easily repeatable.

 

[Johnatan56]

Nope, I don't think I've seen a game use more than 10GB RAM.
Here's Escape From Tarkov, a beautiful game using only 10GB on ultra settings:

You do know that's got more to do with that they cater for what most users have than that they don't want to, right?
Enough Steam users nowadays have 16GB of RAM (38.7%), with pretty much anyone you want to target having at least 8GB RAM (around 87% of users). There are also users with more than 16GB, 7.8%.

So depending on how big you want your audience to be, you'll optimize to that level, and since most users are at 8GB of RAM, you can aim to target that for any modern title, with AAA titles high settings allowing for 16GB of RAM. You also need to take into account that everything needs to be able to be cut down/"optimized" enough to run on consoles.

With the new console generation coming out, you'll see more and more titles probably hitting around 12GB of RAM usage.

 

[wizardofid]

You do know that's got more to do with that they cater for what most users have than that they don't want to, right?
Enough Steam users nowadays have 16GB of RAM (38.7%), with pretty much anyone you want to target having at least 8GB RAM (around 87% of users). There are also users with more than 16GB, 7.8%.

So depending on how big you want your audience to be, you'll optimize to that level, and since most users are at 8GB of RAM, you can aim to target that for any modern title, with AAA titles high settings allowing for 16GB of RAM. You also need to take into account that everything needs to be able to be cut down/"optimized" enough to run on consoles.

With the new console generation coming out, you'll see more and more titles probably hitting around 12GB of RAM usage.

Both Xbox and ps5 will have 16gig, idk what the system overhead on consoles but 16 gig including system overhead will likely be the new normal. However system resources for consoles aren't the same as with PC platform, where it is a bit more open and likely to see a bit more ram use overall.

Covid is putting a dent in things a bit so there might be some delays and such, 8 gig should still be reasonably for a while still.

 

[Johnatan56]

Both Xbox and ps5 will have 16gig, idk what the system overhead on consoles but 16 gig including system overhead will likely be the new normal. However system resources for consoles aren't the same as with PC platform, where it is a bit more open and likely to see a bit more ram use overall.

Covid is putting a dent in things a bit so there might be some delays and such, 8 gig should still be reasonably for a while still.

My point was more along the lines of searching for games now that will use more than 8GB will be rare as you'll optimize your engine to work for the largest target audience that is feasible, would be stupid to limit yourself to only 35% of the market if doing a couple of texture cuts will allow you to target 70% of the market.

 

[rambo919]

My point was more along the lines of searching for games now that will use more than 8GB will be rare as you'll optimize your engine to work for the largest target audience that is feasible, would be stupid to limit yourself to only 35% of the market if doing a couple of texture cuts will allow you to target 70% of the market.

RAM wise I have never seen a game go over 10GB anyway.... but I don't go over 1080p so that's probably why.

 

[Johnatan56]

RAM wise I have never seen a game go over 10GB anyway.... but I don't go over 1080p so that's probably why.

Was a shooter in beta that I recently played that hit 12GB, that's why it's in beta. And it seems you missed what I said in regards to what game devs will optimize for.
You'll see higher memory usage soon due to consoles going up in available memory.

You might also see size go down due to unreal engine change being copied everywhere, though most game devs/designers will probably take that as an opportunity to add more details (I can't remember though if it remembers memory usage).

 

[rambo919]

Was a shooter in beta that I recently played that hit 12GB, that's why it's in beta. And it seems you missed what I said in regards to what game devs will optimize for.
You'll see higher memory usage soon due to consoles going up in available memory.

You might also see size go down due to unreal engine change being copied everywhere, though most game devs/designers will probably take that as an opportunity to add more details (I can't remember though if it remembers memory usage).

No I got it, I just pointed out that I have never myself hit any game that actually uses more ram no matter what you do to it..... proving your point.

I do however think the fact that I never do more than 1080p is a factor.

 

[rambo919]

@Johnatan56 @wizardofid

Technical question I have been wondering about for a while

New games that are DX12 capable keep throwing out warnings once you go over 4GB of video memory..... what would actually happen if you do would the games just slow down? What's wrong engine wise with funneling secondary assets to RAM assuming there is enough of it?

 

[wizardofid]

My point was more along the lines of searching for games now that will use more than 8GB will be rare as you'll optimize your engine to work for the largest target audience that is feasible, would be stupid to limit yourself to only 35% of the market if doing a couple of texture cuts will allow you to target 70% of the market.

Actually unreal and unity is able to reduce texture res, regardless of input res. 8k textures are rarely used any ways and most cases from terrain and specific use case.I generally render texture at 4k and reduce to 2k without any loss.

8k PNG textures would be about around 45 ish mb, which isn't a lot add additional transparency and alpha channel you could get it up to 80ish mb.

Then you have to include normal map, ambient occlusion map, roughness map or gloss map and a metalness map, which pending the shader you use can all be reduced with maybe the exception of the normal map to a 3rd of the diffuse texture size. Additional optimizing can also be used in the form of LOD which can automatically scale resolution of textures based on distance from the camera.

Textures are loaded almost exclusively in GPU memory, just the way graphic engines work as it is the fastest way to handle and process them, RAM will mostly be used for texture and assets not in use. So you can have 32gig of ram but it will make very little difference if limited by GPU memory.

Next year will more likely see gpu memory requirements jumping a bit then ram.Ever wondered why running a game at lower resolution has more FPS.GPU is able to dynamically scale textures based on resolution you choose meaning far less pixels needs to be rendered and far less GPU memory is used.

The higher you scale resolution the more GPU memory is needed and the more pixel needs to be rendered add full screen shader FXAA, MSAA, and Full screen space ambient occlusion, FXAA and MSAA is by far the largest performance penalty you can have, all it really does is smooth out polygon edges, visually it doesn't do all that much other then improving visual quality another frame rate killer is real time refraction and reflection, most of the times I reduce it so that it uses static cube maps.Which is an extremely cheap method to fake reflections and still look awesome.

RAM requirements are pretty much stable and can away with a lot, gpu memory on the other increases double every 2 -4 years, they don't cut textures, they reduce the ''texture quality'' which is fancy way of saying reducing the resolution on the textures dynamically based on System resources.

 

[wizardofid]

Was a shooter in beta that I recently played that hit 12GB, that's why it's in beta. And it seems you missed what I said in regards to what game devs will optimize for.
You'll see higher memory usage soon due to consoles going up in available memory.

You might also see size go down due to unreal engine change being copied everywhere, though most game devs/designers will probably take that as an opportunity to add more details (I can't remember though if it remembers memory usage).

Unreal tech is locked up pretty tight and comes with hefty fees, similar rendering tech is used else but isn't remotely the same or ''copied'' I can show you several game development engines on the market that is popular with their own unique rendering technology. It isn't so much they are able to add more detail, it is the ability of not having to rely on baking normal maps.What it essentially means artists no longer has to bake and fake polygon detail, however it still has technical limitations it wouldn't be possible to do with every single asset.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

@Johnatan56 @wizardofid

Technical question I have been wondering about for a while

New games that are DX12 capable keep throwing out warnings once you go over 4GB of video memory..... what would actually happen if you do would the games just slow down? What's wrong engine wise with funneling secondary assets to RAM assuming there is enough of it?

I can't remember on which channel it was that I saw it, but it will pretty much overflow to system RAM.
The test they did was run the 3gb and 6gb 1060 on a game, and check the RAM usage.
My made up example is:
6gb card:
5GB VRAM used
8GB System RAM used.

3GB Card:
3GB VRAM used
10GB System RAM used.

Of course system RAM is slower and further from the GPU, so it does hamper performance.

 

[Barbarian Conan]

You do know that's got more to do with that they cater for what most users have than that they don't want to, right?
Enough Steam users nowadays have 16GB of RAM (38.7%), with pretty much anyone you want to target having at least 8GB RAM (around 87% of users). There are also users with more than 16GB, 7.8%.

So depending on how big you want your audience to be, you'll optimize to that level, and since most users are at 8GB of RAM, you can aim to target that for any modern title, with AAA titles high settings allowing for 16GB of RAM. You also need to take into account that everything needs to be able to be cut down/"optimized" enough to run on consoles.

With the new console generation coming out, you'll see more and more titles probably hitting around 12GB of RAM usage.

I know it's what they target, but if they really wanted 60GB of RAM, and were streaming assets only because we don't have enough RAM, they would have filled up the available RAM first.

I'm really interested to see how they will handle the SDD deficit of the average PC compared to next gen consoles.