Inverter setup - whole house

[Agent47]

For the last 2 weeks I have scoured the mybroadband threads, as well as the internet in general, but even though I found some extremely useful pieces of info on inverters and batteries and the like I have not gotten any answers on the questions I have for my currently ongoing backup power project...

(For all intents and purposes my test dummy inverter used for testing is an Ellies FBI2000 (1200watt, 24v) trolley (2 * 100Ah enertech heavy duty batteries within)). This will be upgraded when I figure the logic out.

I recently bought a new house, the previous owners had a generator (6500watt) in one of the outbuildings with a double plug connected from an outlet into the genny, this outlet has a cable running around the house (flat roof house ) through the main box outside, where power comes in, to a manual cutover switch in the main bedroom. So basically the way it worked, if loadshedding starts they would change the cutover to 0 (from main), go outside to start their genny, come in to change the cutover to genny (which switches off the mains) and that will run the whole house. So to my questions:
1.) Can i plug the inverter into that same outside outlet? (For testing I took off 1 plug as there is only 1 output outlet on my test dummy inverter) and power the house the same way as the genny?
2,) Does the cable running around the house cause significant losses that can result in this not working? Its about 12m long...
3.) Does an inverter need the cut over, as it is more automatic out the box than a genny?

I have tried to plug it in and switch the cutover with all outlets in the house switched off, and test it on 1 light, but there is just no juice coming through to power anything.

Electricians want to take advantage of this and take off everything and start again, with significant costs involved. I will only go their proposed route if I really have to...they state they dont know how this was wired and dont want to work on something they dont fully understand - also well aware that not all electricians are experts in this.

I can add photos of the setup currently if need be

Thanx (and be nice )

Edited (some pictures and commentary):

1.) Front of cutover switch


2.) Main side of cutover switch (all seem ok - fact that it switches off the mains when flicked proofs this in my view)


3.) Genny side of cutover switch (black cable bothers me - its connected but surely having that on the same pole as red cannot be right?! Electrican says it must have been done like that for a reason :O)


4.) Inverter front panel (all seems ok)


5.) Plug used to plug into output outlet of inverter


6.) Outlet/connection box - orange cable is from inverter, conduit to cutover switch. White tape is where electrician took off 2nd plug during troubleshoot part 1. Blue wire on right is fully sealed off but also not connected within the plug so not much time spent on that.


7.) Outside main power box - conduit on right from inverter, conduit and black cable on left goes into the house into cutover switch


8.) Inside the main power box - inverter cable just goes straight through not through any switches, other than the earth cable that is earthed in here


My next course was to disconnect the connections in here, add a outlet and see if power comes to here atleast to start troubleshooting it step by step.

Thanx to all so far

 

[TheChamp]

That's the problem that was discussed previously about inheriting a house with an alternative power source, the owner probably did something that only him could understand. The way you tested it was supposed to work.

Maybe they disconnected the generator cables at the changeover switch? Do post pictures, it would be most helpful to those who are trying to help, start with the changeover switch.

 

[The_Ogre]

If the setup last worked when he had the generator running and changed nothing before he left, then in theory the inverter plugged in should work.

1.) Can i plug the inverter into that same outside outlet? (For testing I took off 1 plug as there is only 1 output outlet on my test dummy inverter) and power the house the same way as the genny?
Yes

2,) Does the cable running around the house cause significant losses that can result in this not working? Its about 12m long...
It's AC, so losses are negligible. High voltage, low amperage. So don't worry about losses.

3.) Does an inverter need the cut over, as it is more automatic out the box than a genny?
No, but it will complicate things without the cutover.

 

[Sinbad]

Don't fkn do that. A plug is rated for 15 amps (3.3 kw) - unless you're talking about commando connections?
Are you 100% sure that if one end is unplugged, none of the exposed metal could be live?

 

[Agent47]

@thechamp and @The_Ogre thanx and pictures added

@The_Ogre want to move the full install to a different place so good to know it wont be affected if cable length increases

@Sinbad, with a 1200watt inverter the load will never get to 3.3kw? Will ensure a focus on this when doing the full and final setup.

 

[Gnome]

That inverter is
a) modified sine
b) V-O-V

It is a terrible idea to wire it into the house.
Why?
a) Modified sine: It will damage electronics that need sine wave. It could also damage your earth leakage circuit breaker. Your earth leakage will also probably not work, so if someone gets electrocuted, the circuit breaker will not trip. They'll die.
b) V-O-V: The output does not have a neutral. It has two live wires that are 180 degrees out of phase. Touch either side and you'll shock the bejeezus out of yourself. In every single home your neutral is not switched and tied to ground/earth (ie. same potential as earth). V-O-V doesn't have a neutral, so your neutral will be live at that point. For some circuits like light fixtures the outside part of the light fixture is the neutral contact. Touch alone could electrocute you.

V-O-V is illegal for direct wiring in every country in the world and it is explicitly called out in SANS as illegal to connect to your home.

Your call tho, some people do this because they don't care about safety or have any regard for how dangerous electricity is ‍¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Agent47]

That inverter is
a) modified sine
b) V-O-V

It is a terrible idea to wire it into the house.
Why?
a) Modified sine: It will damage electronics that need sine wave. It could also damage your earth leakage circuit breaker. Your earth leakage will also probably not work, so if someone gets electrocuted, the circuit breaker will not trip. They'll die.
b) V-O-V: The output does not have a neutral. It has two live wires that are 180 degrees out of phase. Touch either side and you'll shock the bejeezus out of yourself. In every single home your neutral is not switched and tied to ground/earth (ie. same potential as earth). V-O-V doesn't have a neutral, so your neutral will be live at that point. For some circuits like light fixtures the outside part of the light fixture is the neutral contact. Touch alone could electrocute you.

V-O-V is illegal for direct wiring in every country in the world and it is explicitly called out in SANS as illegal to connect to your home.

Your call tho, some people do this because they don't care about safety or have any regard for how dangerous electricity is ‍¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanx @Gnome

Will this method make sense on something like the below (which is the ultimate objective) - ignore size for now that is still to be tested when the logic of install makes sense


The previous owners had an older version of (would that have been legal?):


I want to do this the right way, which is why all testing has been done while alone at home and with only 1 light being used. Just don't want to spend unnecessarily on a new install if current setup can be used (legally), which would mean the equipment will have to be "cheaper" to start off with

 

[Gnome]

Thanx @Gnome

Will this method make sense on something like the below (which is the ultimate objective) - ignore size for now that is still to be tested when the logic of install makes sense
View attachment 882017

Yep, these Axpert inverters can be hard wired. I myself use one for that purpose that I have hardwired.

The previous owners had an older version of (would that have been legal?):
View attachment 882019

I want to do this the right way, which is why all testing has been done while alone at home and with only 1 light being used. Just don't want to spend unnecessarily on a new install if current setup can be used (legally), which would mean the equipment will have to be "cheaper" to start off with

Yep definitely not legal, those generates usually even have lots of warnings about not doing that. But you get all kinds of yahoos who don't care as I said.

 

[Agent47]

Yep, these Axpert inverters can be hard wired. I myself use one for that purpose that I have hardwired.



Yep definitely not legal, those generates usually even have lots of warnings about not doing that. But you get all kinds of yahoos who don't care as I said.

Any chance, when you have some time, you can share a couple of pictures (and commentary) on how your install goes into the house and then works from there please? Electricians in Alberton area want to fully redo the install even though they mention they are not experts in this field, so an expert installer of this will also be very helpful.

Thanx again

EDIT: oh yes and the electrician doing COC signed this off in June 2019

 

[TheChamp]

That inverter is
a) modified sine
b) V-O-V

It is a terrible idea to wire it into the house.
Why?
a) Modified sine: It will damage electronics that need sine wave. It could also damage your earth leakage circuit breaker. Your earth leakage will also probably not work, so if someone gets electrocuted, the circuit breaker will not trip. They'll die.
b) V-O-V: The output does not have a neutral. It has two live wires that are 180 degrees out of phase. Touch either side and you'll shock the bejeezus out of yourself. In every single home your neutral is not switched and tied to ground/earth (ie. same potential as earth). V-O-V doesn't have a neutral, so your neutral will be live at that point. For some circuits like light fixtures the outside part of the light fixture is the neutral contact. Touch alone could electrocute you.

V-O-V is illegal for direct wiring in every country in the world and it is explicitly called out in SANS as illegal to connect to your home.

Your call tho, some people do this because they don't care about safety or have any regard for how dangerous electricity is ‍¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He was using the modified inverter to test if I read correctly, the modified wave is neither here nor there in this regard, he was supposed to get power into the house.

 

[Agent47]

He was using the modified inverter to test if I read correctly, the modified wave is neither here nor there in this regard, he was supposed to get power into the house.

Correct yes!! I have gone on to ultimate objective in this discussion further. Cabling issue (seems that is all that remains) is still an open issue

 

[TheChamp]

I know you think the electricians are trying to scam you, I am also not a fan of being scammed by trades people but I would really suggest you get this done properly, better negotiate with the electrician and on the price but do it right, if you cannot figure it out it possibly mean there's a lot of things you can see, it was supposed to be straight forward.

 

[Gnome]

Any chance, when you have some time, you can share a couple of pictures (and commentary) on how your install goes into the house and then works from there please? Electricians in Alberton area want to fully redo the install even though they mention they are not experts in this field, so an expert installer of this will also be very helpful.

Thanx again

EDIT: oh yes and the electrician doing COC signed this off in June 2019

I did mine in an apartment, but I can take some pictures and give you a diagram of how it works. Been running like that since 2015 (not that it means it is safe but everything was tested with a megger and earth leakage tests, etc.). I don't use the solar option tho, I just use it as a UPS.

99% of electricians aren't sure how to deal with inverter & generator installs. My GF is a mechanical engineer (HVAC & Drainage) doing large construction projects and they have an actual electrical engineer in house to deal with this. That engineer has a PrEng (meaning an engineer that has qualified as professional engineer) that signs off on documents that get submitted to council. Generator and inverter installs are definitely an entirely different ball game from just standard electrical installation.

Granted home installs are a bit simpler because you can follow a recipe, but still if you haven't done one before there are things to watch out for

He was using the modified inverter to test if I read correctly, the modified wave is neither here nor there in this regard, he was supposed to get power into the house.

I see, missed that point, but I think it is important to call out using that specific inverter is not a good idea

 

[wingnut771]

For the last 2 weeks I have scoured the mybroadband threads, as well as the internet in general, but even though I found some extremely useful pieces of info on inverters and batteries and the like I have not gotten any answers on the questions I have for my currently ongoing backup power project...

(For all intents and purposes my test dummy inverter used for testing is an Ellies FBI2000 (1200watt, 24v) trolley (2 * 100Ah enertech heavy duty batteries within)). This will be upgraded when I figure the logic out.

I recently bought a new house, the previous owners had a generator (6500watt) in one of the outbuildings with a double plug connected from an outlet into the genny, this outlet has a cable running around the house (flat roof house ) through the main box outside, where power comes in, to a manual cutover switch in the main bedroom. So basically the way it worked, if loadshedding starts they would change the cutover to 0 (from main), go outside to start their genny, come in to change the cutover to genny (which switches off the mains) and that will run the whole house. So to my questions:
1.) Can i plug the inverter into that same outside outlet? (For testing I took off 1 plug as there is only 1 output outlet on my test dummy inverter) and power the house the same way as the genny?
2,) Does the cable running around the house cause significant losses that can result in this not working? Its about 12m long...
3.) Does an inverter need the cut over, as it is more automatic out the box than a genny?

I have tried to plug it in and switch the cutover with all outlets in the house switched off, and test it on 1 light, but there is just no juice coming through to power anything.

Electricians want to take advantage of this and take off everything and start again, with significant costs involved. I will only go their proposed route if I really have to...they state they dont know how this was wired and dont want to work on something they dont fully understand - also well aware that not all electricians are experts in this.

I can add photos of the setup currently if need be

Thanx (and be nice )

Edited (some pictures and commentary):

1.) Front of cutover switch
View attachment 881955

2.) Main side of cutover switch (all seem ok - fact that it switches off the mains when flicked proofs this in my view)
View attachment 881959

3.) Genny side of cutover switch (black cable bothers me - its connected but surely having that on the same pole as red cannot be right?! Electrican says it must have been done like that for a reason :O)
View attachment 881961

4.) Inverter front panel (all seems ok)
View attachment 881963

5.) Plug used to plug into output outlet of inverter
View attachment 881967

6.) Outlet/connection box - orange cable is from inverter, conduit to cutover switch. White tape is where electrician took off 2nd plug during troubleshoot part 1. Blue wire on right is fully sealed off but also not connected within the plug so not much time spent on that.
View attachment 881969

7.) Outside main power box - conduit on right from inverter, conduit and black cable on left goes into the house into cutover switch
View attachment 881973

8.) Inside the main power box - inverter cable just goes straight through not through any switches, other than the earth cable that is earthed in here
View attachment 881975

My next course was to disconnect the connections in here, add a outlet and see if power comes to here atleast to start troubleshooting it step by step.

Thanx to all so far

i'm no expert but surely in that pic of the cut over switch with the red and black wire together looks wrong, should the black wire be to the left of the red wire where the empty screw is? what happens when you measure the voltage inside the switch with inverter on?

 

[Agent47]

I know you think the electricians are trying to scam you, I am also not a fan of being scammed by trades people but I would really suggest you get this done properly, better negotiate with the electrician and on the price but do it right, if you cannot figure it out it possibly mean there's a lot of things you can see, it was supposed to be straight forward.

Also getting to this conclusion - now to find the right one and the right equipment. Thanx for all the things mentioned for me to consider

 

[Agent47]

I did mine in an apartment, but I can take some pictures and give you a diagram of how it works. Been running like that since 2015 (not that it means it is safe but everything was tested with a megger and earth leakage tests, etc.). I don't use the solar option tho, I just use it as a UPS.

Please do share! Will go to solar as step 3 or so only

 

[Gnome]

i'm no expert but surely in that pic of the cut over switch with the red and black wire together looks wrong, should the black wire be to the left of the red wire where the empty screw is? what happens when you measure the voltage inside the switch with inverter on?

Yeah looks dodge, but my guess is the colours are wrong and the guy is trying to bound earth and neutral together in the change over switch. That said, SANS is very clear on colour wiring:
Black: Neutral
Green and yellow or just green: Earth
Other colours: Phase.

So as wingnut says, connecting red to black is just basically always wrong.

 

[Agent47]

i'm no expert but surely in that pic of the cut over switch with the red and black wire together looks wrong, should the black wire be to the left of the red wire where the empty screw is? what happens when you measure the voltage inside the switch with inverter on?

Agreed but did not query when i was told it must be right - i think i disagree now though.

Multimeter showed nothing, but also think it is fault as it did the same on another project. Waiting for the new one to arrive and will test again

 

[Agent47]

Yeah looks dodge, but my guess is the colours are wrong and the guy is trying to bound earth and neutral together in the change over switch. That said, SANS is very clear on colour wiring:
Black: Neutral
Green and yellow or just green: Earth
Other colours: Phase.

So as wingnut says, connecting red to black is just basically always wrong.

Continually thinking about this but it feels if they did that, the circuit is not complete?

I dont like playing in the cutover switch as i cannot really switch off the main side, will get a friend electrian to maybe double check that side and possible move the black to left and test from there

 

[wingnut771]

Continually thinking about this but it feels if they did that, the circuit is not complete?

I dont like playing in the cutover switch as i cannot really switch off the main side, will get a friend electrian to maybe double check that side and possible move the black to left and test from there

just turn the main switch off at the db board, but leave cutover switch on main, then measure power from inverter in cutover switch, if you get shocked it's only 1000W.