Iran - The War Begins (article)

[marine1]

Well if those so called "civilians" are standing there harbouring terrorists then they will get killed. Israel has a right to defend itself againsty terrorists and I hope they do. Iran and Syria are the biggest threats to peace all over the world.

 

[Leitmotif]

Iran needs the Shiite rebellion to keep the US from turning their attention toward Iran. They're fighting a war of opinion... eventually the US warmongers will either be forced to back down, or they'll have to turn their country into a full-blown military-industrial dictatorship.

I believe that Israel is doing the right thing by proving that they don't care how many bystanders they have to kill in order to bring terrorists down. It's a demonstration of will and resolve. Same as suicide bombers.

 

[Syndyre]

Same can be asked about Hezbollah. Israel invaded Lebanon and kidnapped Lebanese citizens before Hezbollah returned the favour.

Israel did unilaterally withdraw in 2000 though.

 

[Xarog]

Accused by who? Plenty of country's that level accusations have an ulterior motive. There's also a fine, sometimes non-existent line between civilians and terrorists/Palestinian militias because they obviously aren't part of any regular, organised army.

Remember the Rachel Corrie story? Collective punishment is a warcrime which Israel regularly resorts to.

And Israel has fully owned up to some of the stuff. They like assassinating people by helicopter gunship for instance - they claim the 5-50 civilian casualties that go with such actions to be 'regrettable'.

How about when they littered Southern Lebanon with over a million unexploded cluster bomblets? Members on the IDF who were orderered to do the shelling have both attested to the fact that it was indiscriminate (they had no specific target) and that they were orderered to fire using trajectories known to increase the number of dud bomblets.

What about the Shiite insurgents, which you admit Iran supplies, which attack Iraqi Sunni's? Or do you think they make sure they only use their Iranian-supplied weapons against US forces? Also, from one of your earlier quotes from Wikipedia:

Shiites don't have tanks or armoured vehicles last I heard. I guess I could be wrong about that though. Seeing as though it's much easier to kill Shiites through other means (ambushing them with assault rifles), or using ordinary car bombs, I think it's quite possible that Iran would sell the armour piercing shaped charges to the Sunnis on the grounds that they're unlikely to waste such specialised explosives against the Shiites.

Israel did unilaterally withdraw in 2000 though.

So you're saying that Hezbollah should occupy Israel for 16 years or so and THEN the two sides will be comparable?

Well if those so called "civilians" are standing there harbouring terrorists then they will get killed. Israel has a right to defend itself againsty terrorists and I hope they do. Iran and Syria are the biggest threats to peace all over the world.

I could agree, but with the provisor that the Palestinians deserve to have a state of their own as much as the Israelis and that Israel has no right to deny the Palestinians that desire. If they do then they're inviting themselves to be attacked. Maybe we should give the Palestinians the equipment to form a regular army so that they can fight a conventional war so that they don't need to resort to terrorist attacks or guerilla warfare.

Iran needs the Shiite rebellion to keep the US from turning their attention toward Iran. They're fighting a war of opinion... eventually the US warmongers will either be forced to back down, or they'll have to turn their country into a full-blown military-industrial dictatorship.

Maybe you mean Sunni rebellion. The US is blaming the Shiite rebellion on the Iranians. If the Iranians are interested in PR then they'll want to CURB the Shiite resistance in Iraq.

I believe that Israel is doing the right thing by proving that they don't care how many bystanders they have to kill in order to bring terrorists down. It's a demonstration of will and resolve. Same as suicide bombers.

So you believe that the suicide bombers are doing the right thing too, like Israel?

 

[Alan]

Then what does?

*sigh*

You really don't know do you

Nope.

Maybe you should try and find out. Do I have to inform you again?

Where else were they supposed to build their bunkers?

Um did they get permission from the Lebanese government to build these bunkers? Did they have permission to launch those attacks from them as well?

It's their country. I would expect any attacked nation to want to ambush anyone who had invaded them.

Is it. Does it not belong to the Lebanese?

Planning for the worst does not mean you hope the worst actually happens. And it's on record that Hezbollah would rather not have had the war happen.

Who said that is not what they wanted?

Something in common with the Christians then.

Where are these "Christian extremist" ruled countries?

Oil, attempting a regime change in line with the Neocon objectives, Getting rid of the last regional powers in the middle east so as to give Israel a free hand - there's many possibilities.

The imagination runs wild. I thought you said invading Iran would be disaster in terms of oil.

Did Iran?

Yes

Why don't they go after Saudi Arabia then?

Do they have a nuke program?

I dunno - you tell me.

Why am I not surpised.

 

[Alan]

I'm not only talking about what happened in 2006. Israel has been accused of many different warcrimes and among them is using military hardware to assassinate civilians in the occupied territories.

Ah yes. The Israelis randomly picking out civilians to blow them away with high tech and expensive hardware.

Generally accepted by the west who heard the "wiped off the map" version first, which was also translated by the west.

Is Al Jazeera western?

And exactly what terror sponsership are we talking about. Iran may supply Hezbollah (which is only regarded in any way as a terrorist organisation by a mere 6 countries), and perhaps it does supply insurgents who fight inside Iraq (but mainly target military personell/vehicles which isn't terrorism but guerrila warfare), but I'm not aware of any direct sponsership of terrorism.

Hmmm

So if Iranians are suppling Shia groups with weapons to attack coalition troops are they directly involved in waging guerrila warfare.

Still looking for sources. I last read it many years ago and I'm not entirely sure where.

Well you gonna be looking for a real long time

 

[Alan]

I am grateful for your sense of humour. No sorry I didn't read the book (my ever present pile)...

Well you do get quite upset. I do really do suggest you read that book.

You say "see the signs." But don't you see there are/were no signs. The signs were made up to justify a false war (this is endlessly verifiable and is now common knowledge.) How can you point fingers at resistance when your lies justify or made the resistance in the first place?

What are these people resisting against? Moreover what are they striving for?

Don't you see that Iran is one tiny little country (who purported to want nuclear power for civilian purposes.) But now all of a sudden they are the bogeyman of the world (exactly as Iraq.) What timeline? The only time any timeline has come into play is GB's threats and posturing.

In terms of the region Iran is a major player and has been for degades. You don't have to be a large nation to develop nukes and the means to deliver them. Just look at NK. As I said the nuke program was around before GB

I agree that Iran wanting to enrich uranium is tricky but they threw out the inspectors due to american agitation, Same with Iraq. Saddam threw out the inspectors originally due to american agitation. If america wasn't agitating then nothing changes, Iran is a signatory of the Non-Proliferation Act, it falls under their jurisdiction and for this they were first held to account. The fact that India and Pakistan (countries with regular past wars) are not sanctioned just shows the racism and hidden agenda of america. Pakistan (who armed both NKorea and Iran?, in terms of tech) is patted on the back and given a bone. Sickening rhetoric to further america's not so hidden agenda. And I note you dismiss the Project for a New World Order document: try reading it sometime and you will see how transparent their agenda is.

Why throw out inspectors because of American agitation. Surely that just raises more suspicion and plays into their hands. What qualifies as "agitation". After all didn't Saddam throw out inspectors during the Clinton Admin. Was he an agitant?

Pakistan is a rather strange case. Pakistan should have been heavily sanctioned. Unfortuantely Clinton was in power and he just let them develop nukes . In Pakistan there are Islamic fundamentalists who have large support as well as being powerfull and influential. Musharaf is a sectarian dictator who unfortunately is required to keep a lid on things. It's far from ideal but that is real politik.

"Why wait for a genocide or global war?" Has not america made this war?

No

Did they not make the genocide (the original chemicals?)

No

Please look the question straight in the face and answer yes or no (keeping in mind the lies and who exactly is doing the agitating and who exactly invaded another country on false pretexts in the first place.)

There are your straight answers for you.

 

[Syndyre]

And Israel has fully owned up to some of the stuff. They like assassinating people by helicopter gunship for instance - they claim the 5-50 civilian casualties that go with such actions to be 'regrettable'.

This is certainly better than Palestinian terrorists that deliberately target coffee shops, buses etc.

Shiites don't have tanks or armoured vehicles last I heard. I guess I could be wrong about that though. Seeing as though it's much easier to kill Shiites through other means (ambushing them with assault rifles), or using ordinary car bombs, I think it's quite possible that Iran would sell the armour piercing shaped charges to the Sunnis on the grounds that they're unlikely to waste such specialised explosives against the Shiites.

I'm sure Iran is perfectly capable of supplying other weapons to aid the Shiites in addition to armour piercing IED's.

So you're saying that Hezbollah should occupy Israel for 16 years or so and THEN the two sides will be comparable?

No, I'm saying that seeing as Hezbollah has now withdrawn from Lebanon Hezbollah should now leave them alone.

Maybe we should give the Palestinians the equipment to form a regular army so that they can fight a conventional war so that they don't need to resort to terrorist attacks or guerilla warfare.

So if your army's not up to standard its acceptable to launch terrorist attacks?

 

[marine1]

Israel = 1
Arabs/Muslims = 0

 

[Xarog]

*sigh*

You really don't know do you

I know very well what makes a "rogue nation". I'm just waiting for you to define it.

Maybe you should try and find out. Do I have to inform you again?

Maybe I already did.

The conclusion I came to was this : There was no justification for Israel to treat the prisoners as they did and thus Hezbollah is entitled to try and free them.

Um did they get permission from the Lebanese government to build these bunkers? Did they have permission to launch those attacks from them as well?

A question which totally ignores the nature of politics in Lebanon. The geneva conventions allows for militia to form when the government of the nation is incapable of resisting an incoming enemy. Since the traditional army was unwilling, or more likely, unable to defend Lebanon, Hezbollah was entirely entitled to take that job upon themselves as a militia. Hezbollah is the government in southern Lebanon for all intents and purposes, and digging bunkers is certainly not the only thing they have done. They have also provided many other services usually left to the government, such as education.

Is it. Does it not belong to the Lebanese?

Are you implying the Hezbollah are not Lebanese? Note that they defended the country on behalf of all Lebanese, not on behalf of Hezbollah.

Who said that is not what they wanted?

Nasrallah.

Where are these "Christian extremist" ruled countries?

Oh, you're telling me that Christians aren't all the same?

The imagination runs wild. I thought you said invading Iran would be disaster in terms of oil.

I don't really put much faith in the intelligence of the neocons.

Short of killing every last Iranian, there is nothing that the US can do with military force that will bring about a pro-west leadership or will secure control of any natural resources within Iran.

Yes

Wrong.

Do they have a nuke program?

So it's your contention that the country that exports Wahabbi radicals are absolutely free to do so without any censure as long as they don't attempt to build nukes?

Why am I not surpised.

Probably because I don't claim to be a mind-reader. You on the other hand claim to know exactly what is on the minds of every self-determination desiring muslim on the planet.

Ah yes. The Israelis randomly picking out civilians to blow them away with high tech and expensive hardware.

Yup.

Is Al Jazeera western?

Irrelevant. Al Jazeera picked up the story from western media. That kind of thing happens all the time.

So if Iranians are suppling Shia groups with weapons to attack coalition troops are they directly involved in waging guerrila warfare.

If I sell you a gun and you go and kill your neighbour I wasn't directly involved in the act.

 

[marine1]

If I sell you a gun and you go and kill your neighbour I wasn't directly involved in the act.

If you sell him a gun and tell him to go and kill a certain person and then also pay him to do it. Then yes you are guilty of conspiring or inciting murder.

 

[Xarog]

This is certainly better than Palestinian terrorists that deliberately target coffee shops, buses etc.

The militant Palestinians argue that they're legitimate targets because everyone in Israel has to serve in the military at some point. There's also the blurring of lines in cases where busses have been bombed because those busses are used to transport troops to various parts of the country.

I'm sure Iran is perfectly capable of supplying other weapons to aid the Shiites in addition to armour piercing IED's.

But why would they even need to if there is such a thriving black market of weapons already in Iraq?

No, I'm saying that seeing as Hezbollah <Israel> has now withdrawn from Lebanon Hezbollah should now leave them alone.

I think you mean Israel, not Hezbollah. And I disagree with you because Israel is still holding Lebanese which they took with them as they were withdrawing from Lebanon. If Zimbabwe took control of a part of S.A. for a while and took some S.A. citizens with them when they left and refused to charge those prisoners with any crime and just let them languish in jails indefinately, I would want to see them rescued. Wouldn't you?

So if your army's not up to standard its acceptable to launch terrorist attacks?

Let me ask you this : what alternative is there?

 

[marine1]

Maybe start by not blowing people up and maybe talking about it. Militant views are obviously no solution

 

[Xarog]

If you sell him a gun and tell him to go and kill a certain person and then also pay him to do it. Then yes you are guilty of conspiring or inciting murder.

Guess the US is going to have to face some tough answers regarding the use of cluster bombs in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon war seeing as they sold the weapons to Israel and also give Israel $6 billion in 'support'.

 

[Xarog]

Maybe start by not blowing people up and maybe talking about it. Militant views are obviously no solution

Ok, so Hamas lays down their weapons, stops all their bombing. What happens then?

 

[marine1]

Well then I am sure Israel will stop killing them. Maybe if they were serious about peace there would be some positive developments. However they have proved in the past that they don't want peace. They want to destroy Israel.
By the way Israel is in hot water over the cluster bombs even though I think they were right in what they did.

 

[JK8]

Well then I am sure Israel will stop killing them. Maybe if they were serious about peace there would be some positive developments. However they have proved in the past that they don't want peace. They want to destroy Israel.

They will.

 

[marine1]

Thats really funny. Destroy Israel. Good one. Lets wait and see.

 

[Xarog]

Thats really funny. Destroy Israel. Good one. Lets wait and see.

Israel cannot support its war machine without extensive foreign aid.

The longer the conflict goes on, the worse it becomes for Israel. They cannot fight a war of attrition forever.

Well then I am sure Israel will stop killing them. Maybe if they were serious about peace there would be some positive developments. However they have proved in the past that they don't want peace. They want to destroy Israel.

I'm not looking for some vague "I am sure" statement. I want to know exactly what you think is going to happen and how you think it is going to happen, especially since it is public knowledge that the zionists consider the whole area to be part of Greater Israel where muslims aren't welcome.

By the way Israel is in hot water over the cluster bombs even though I think they were right in what they did.

Yeah, laying a million mines in civilian territory is the "right" thing to do.

You're the worst kind of hypocrite, and from the looks of it you're a closet racist too.

 

[marine1]

Ahh name calling. Ok what Isaid was that using the cluster bombs was right as they had a right to defend themselves. If civilians want to hang around where terrorists are launching rockets then sorry for them. Israel dropped pamphlets telling them to get out. They never listened. Closet racist? Hmm. Pot calling the kettle black again. (no pun intended) I do not and will not support Islam or the Lebanese as I feel they are mainly militant and want to see Israel destroyed as do you. Those kind of people are living in a dream world as well as being delusional. Never once did I comment on laying mines.

Tell me how was killing Israeli athletes constructive? I think you need to wake up and smell what you shovelling. Israel is not going away. You need to accept that.