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Is pc falling behind
- Thread starter Project X
- Start date
doobiwan
Executive Member
Heh heh SQ, you're funny 
What are you smoking?
Actually there's no difference in the output of a DX9 and 10 card, the difference is at an implementation level, like driver layer etc. The reason for the change is Aero glass - Dx9 allows single application access to 3D hardware only, Dx10 allows multi.
1080p is actually higher res than 1600*1200, because it's widescreen (2073600 pixels vs 1920000 pixels) and post launch 360 certification requires a minimum of 2x AA anyway.
U3 did not "debut on PC" There are no U3 PC games as of yet.
And I think it's hilarious that you consider a 7800GT better than the PS3 or 360 considering that the PS3 RSX IS a 7800 GTX with addition dram. The 360 Xeno's is a derivative of the R600, which is ATI's yet to be released next gen DX10 card. (Which funnily enouh you quote yourself :$ )
PC graphics cards are also horribly underutilized, look at what you could achieve with a Geforce 3 compared to the Xbox 1. PC's have a lot more bottlenecks and compromised, consoles also allow code a lot closer to the metal.
Yes PC development drives consoles, we know that, but Console hardware value kills PC's because of subsidization. They co-exist and serve their own purposes, so (to all the PC fanboys) stop being so friggin defensive!
What are you smoking?Actually there's no difference in the output of a DX9 and 10 card, the difference is at an implementation level, like driver layer etc. The reason for the change is Aero glass - Dx9 allows single application access to 3D hardware only, Dx10 allows multi.
1080p is actually higher res than 1600*1200, because it's widescreen (2073600 pixels vs 1920000 pixels) and post launch 360 certification requires a minimum of 2x AA anyway.
U3 did not "debut on PC" There are no U3 PC games as of yet.
And I think it's hilarious that you consider a 7800GT better than the PS3 or 360 considering that the PS3 RSX IS a 7800 GTX with addition dram. The 360 Xeno's is a derivative of the R600, which is ATI's yet to be released next gen DX10 card. (Which funnily enouh you quote yourself :$ )
PC graphics cards are also horribly underutilized, look at what you could achieve with a Geforce 3 compared to the Xbox 1. PC's have a lot more bottlenecks and compromised, consoles also allow code a lot closer to the metal.
Yes PC development drives consoles, we know that, but Console hardware value kills PC's because of subsidization. They co-exist and serve their own purposes, so (to all the PC fanboys) stop being so friggin defensive!
my wife, kid and friends all know how to play a game on a console.
put the disc in, and it will play.
this is like arguing that pc's make better dvd players. the answer is that technically they do, but how many folks watch a dvd on their pc compared to how many folks have a dedicated dvd player under their tv.
the pc may be technically superior (ar a cost) but I am sure more of the common folk play games on consoles. and due to this planet, the "common" folk outnumber the wise.
debate over.
put the disc in, and it will play.
this is like arguing that pc's make better dvd players. the answer is that technically they do, but how many folks watch a dvd on their pc compared to how many folks have a dedicated dvd player under their tv.
the pc may be technically superior (ar a cost) but I am sure more of the common folk play games on consoles. and due to this planet, the "common" folk outnumber the wise.
debate over.
Macguyver1
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Yes the PC is falling behind, all you that went out and bought consoles instead of upgrading your PC's are superior to us PC guys.
What you should now do is take all the money you saved from not upgrading your PC invest it in offshore accounts, and live off the interest!
What you should now do is take all the money you saved from not upgrading your PC invest it in offshore accounts, and live off the interest!
killadoob
Honorary Master
pc is not falling behind i dont think
if we talking about pc vs console not tons of money vs console then pc is kicking console's
wait for a dx10 to be out with 8800gtx or higher then lets speak, yes its expensive but this thread is about pc vs console not cheap vs expensive
personally ive never owned a console but have friends who have them and i find the graphics rather dodgy but maybe thats because of their tv's maybe newer better quality tv's would change my mind
PC ftw!!!!!!
if we talking about pc vs console not tons of money vs console then pc is kicking console's
wait for a dx10 to be out with 8800gtx or higher then lets speak, yes its expensive but this thread is about pc vs console not cheap vs expensive
personally ive never owned a console but have friends who have them and i find the graphics rather dodgy but maybe thats because of their tv's maybe newer better quality tv's would change my mind
PC ftw!!!!!!
Yes there is.
DX9 does not support online hardware tessellation or culling, DX10 does via Geometry shader and it's stream output capability. This directly means off-set mapping techniques like displacement maps can actually be used for the first time properly with the underlying geometry changing with the viewing angle as well.
DX10 also has an integer class pixel format, that in itself is speed related, but allows many interesting texturing techniques that are not solely dependent on texture format.
These are but a couple of examples, but there are more. Indeed SM3.0 is similar in to 4.0 as far as feature sets go, but to say that the only difference is Aero related is missing the point entirely. As you can have Aero effects using an OpenGL2.0 ICD, which has nothing to do with DX10.
Wrong again. You are talking about aspect ratio and spatial resolution, increased horizontal granularity does not make for a finer picture. The stair case effect exists because of lack of pixel data on the vertical not horizontal. That's why HD standards are given by their horizontal detail, i.e 720p, 1080i, 1080p etc...
That's why a 4:3 display can still playback 1080i content provided the vertical resolution is above 1080. 1600x1200 fits this.
XBOX360 certification only needs 2XAA when using 720 or less. Whichever way you slice it the 10MiB EDRAM can't hold 1080 with 2XAA, so you only get 4XAA at 720p and lower. So at the highest 1080 you have no AA on the vertical which is where it counts most, hence a 17" LCD displaying 2XSSAA will generate at least 2048 pixels before down sampling to back buffer. As you can see 2048 > 1080
Read properly, I said UE3 which is Unreal Engine3, the very same engine that is powering the game GOW and making people draw comparisons. The Engine was shown of on a GF6 years ago. I never said Unreal3 debuted on on the PC, the engine did.
Wrong yet again.
What addition ram are you talking about and where is this situated?
RSX is a G70 core much like 7800GT. However is offers 28 instead of the 20 fragment shaders that exist on 7800GT. Off the 28 only 24 are active. It has 8 rasterizers instead of 16, because the target render size is smaller than that usually used on PC, so you don't need the same amount of fill-rate. (Hint, that's because 1080 is still of lower detail than would be employed on a PC using 2XAA at 1280x1024 and beyond)
And again!
Xenos is not a derivative of R600. Xenos (formerly C1 internally) is closer to X1900XTX than R600. It features the same SIMD single issue ALUs, but instead of having the additional 8 vertex units of the R580, it is a unified design which has it's ALUs capable of handling fragment, vertex and texturing calls. The unification does not make it DX10 compliant, it isn't and never was meant to be. DX10 compliance would have meant a die footprint at least twice the size, instead of the 238million odd gates in the primary, to almost 500million. Also, Xenos has no geometry class shader support.
The Xenos inherits features which are hardware specific because it's in a closed box environment. Much like the RSX on the PS3 will be able to do things that DX9.0c couldn't necessarily do. There's only one DX10 GPU on the market today on any platform and that's NV50/G80.
So try again
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lilDeath
Executive Member
Thanks ShockG! Makes for interesting reading @ 01:03
Soooooo.... pc`s pwn xbox. w00t. Can a Xbox hold 4 TB of data? Cause where am I going to put my media! Can it play with a keyboard? Cause there is no way I am paying massive money for those over priced lame consol games.
then explain to me why my friends wont leave my X360 alone,for a bunch pc geeks they seem to be wanting to play my 360 alot latley since i got GOW and R6.
R2700 for a latest state of the art console? how can that be overpriced to a R5000-R6000 direct X10 video card?
but hey you know better !! your PC pwns everything right?
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Darth Garth
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So try again
Does DX10 also not demand a unified pixel and vertex shader architecture ???.
You a games coder ???.
I think the best way to compare consoles vs PCs is in the gaming dept.
I dont care if a console has 4TB of data, I simply want to use it to play games. Storage and other PC related stuff can be catered for by the cheapest PC on the market.
Sure the PC will surge ahead in the brute force category since PC game developers tend to rush their games expecting people to have the latest 8800 series of cards to run their unoptimized code. But dont you wonder how much will your expenses actually be in the vicous 12 months hardware cycle most PC gamers go through? Ouch is what I say.
I dont care if a console has 4TB of data, I simply want to use it to play games. Storage and other PC related stuff can be catered for by the cheapest PC on the market.
Sure the PC will surge ahead in the brute force category since PC game developers tend to rush their games expecting people to have the latest 8800 series of cards to run their unoptimized code. But dont you wonder how much will your expenses actually be in the vicous 12 months hardware cycle most PC gamers go through? Ouch is what I say.
Roy Munson
Well-Known Member
My #1 reason for PC being king?
"I now it's expensive dear, but I need it for work"
"I now it's expensive dear, but I need it for work"
lilDeath
Executive Member
This sort of bring the point across that me and several others have mentioned. They are catering for different things. In some areas / games the PC will be better, for others the console.
Frankly, I don't care, cause when I am tired of playing console, I can go to the PC.
People what are you not understanding here?
GOW IS USING UNREAL3 ENGINE WHICH IS NOT AVAILABLE YET ON PC! THE ENGINE ORIGINATES ON THE PC. PC PEOPLE!!!! The visuals are NOT AN indication of XBOX's superiority! UE3 Works on 2004's GeForce6!
AND ONLY IN SA DO YOU PAY SUCH PRICES! YOU ARE NOT A REFLECTION OF THE REST OF THE WORLD!
U$D 8800GTX = R4,400
U$D 8800GTS = R3,250
G80 on PC is by far superior in every conceivable way to Xenos in XBOX and RSX! It's the most advanced and most powerful single chip graphics synthesizer ever! At 650~Million gates, it's got more core logic than RSX+XENOS put together!
PC graphics development makes it possible for you to even be speaking about graphics on consoles. Console manufacturers have turned to the two companies who by far are the leaders in programmable graphics chips. Sony with all it's money could not and would not be able to match what nVIDIA's NV47 chip can do. Neither can Microsoft, Sega before it's demise also figured out the same thing choosing to go with the Naomi chip from PowerVR.
No it doesn't this is only at the API level. There's no way for the API to know what happens with the hardware after the instructions pass to the driver.
For the same reason Xenos is unified but not DX10 compliant
The current NV4disp.dll driver still separates vertex and fragment processing under DX9/XP environment.
I'm allergic to consoles but lately even I have pondered getting a console. One major factor is that even if you have a Geforce 8800 and a super powerfull computer that leaves any console in the dirt it means nothing if the P.C games a badly optimized bug ridden console ports.
For example lets look at Splinter Cell 4. Not only is it a lame port, badly optimized and bug ridden but it doesn't work on SM2 cards. That cuts out a huge portion of P.C gamers. What's even more moronic is it doesn't work on a Geforce 8800 according to one website. How do you justify all that rubbish when you can just buy the PS2/Xbox version put it in the PS2/Xbox and play.
With all the crap problems with both hardware and software it's very hard to argue P.C gaming to the average Joe gamer. The only reason I play the P.C games are because of games like GRAW and Operation Flashpoint or other simulations and do I put up with all kinds of crap just to play them.
I won't be getting a XBox 360 because of texture tearing
but maybe I'll pick up a second hand PS2 from somebody so I can play games like SC DA or Pro Evo hassle free.killadoob
Honorary Master
some agmes are meant for console some games meant for pc
i mean take the battlefield 2 game how would that be played on a conosle
im talking now but im a little out of
the graphis is on a colse looks very picture perfect as in an optimized photo for th racing games
the pc version look amazing
i mean take the battlefield 2 game how would that be played on a conosle
im talking now but im a little out of
the graphis is on a colse looks very picture perfect as in an optimized photo for th racing games
the pc version look amazing
Ubisoft messed up with SC4, just like Ion Strom did with Invisible War. What does that have to do with the platform? How is a bad game an indication of the platform as a whole?
NFS Carbon is crap on PS2, does that mean PS2 is crap as a whole?
SC4 doesn't work on GF8? Yes I think it does. It's a crap game on any gfx card, but Ubisoft is not a representation of the platform.
The original thread title asks "Is pc falling behind?" It does not qualify this question at all. So we have to examine in which fields this would be, if it's new or if there's anything to debate at all.
As far as graphical prowess goes, the PC isn't falling behind, never has and won't in the foreseeable future. As far as number of titles go, consoles has always had more (NES days and onwards)
As a pick up and play item, the console has always been superior, because that's all it does. Gaming on the PC is only one of the things a PC can do so that argument is not highlighting anything new and for the most part is meaningless in this context.
So in all 4 pages, someone has yet to say exactly how the PC is falling behind and make a valid argument,
NFS Carbon is crap on PS2, does that mean PS2 is crap as a whole?
SC4 doesn't work on GF8? Yes I think it does. It's a crap game on any gfx card, but Ubisoft is not a representation of the platform.
The original thread title asks "Is pc falling behind?" It does not qualify this question at all. So we have to examine in which fields this would be, if it's new or if there's anything to debate at all.
As far as graphical prowess goes, the PC isn't falling behind, never has and won't in the foreseeable future. As far as number of titles go, consoles has always had more (NES days and onwards)
As a pick up and play item, the console has always been superior, because that's all it does. Gaming on the PC is only one of the things a PC can do so that argument is not highlighting anything new and for the most part is meaningless in this context.
So in all 4 pages, someone has yet to say exactly how the PC is falling behind and make a valid argument,