Is this a decent mid-level PC?

[Foxhound5366]

So I've been playing around on Evetech's configurator tool, looking for the best PC (including monitor) on a budget of only R12 000.

I realise that's a tight ask, so I had to compromise: I'm settling for the new generation Intel processor and motherboard chipset, and adding in an SSD for another decent boost. Any hope of basic gaming will have to wait until I can save up for a decent graphics card.

Do you agree that this configuration is as good as I'll be able to do?

PC Case: Standard Black Case - Included
Power Supply: Antec 400W 80+ High Performance Power Supply [ + R499.00 ]
Processor: Intel Core i5-6500 (3.2GHz, 6M Cache, 4x Cores, 3.6GHz Turbo) - Included
Heatsink & CPU Fan: Standard Heatsink & CPU Fan - Included
Motherboard: MSI H110M PRO VD LGA 1151 DDR4 USB 3.1 MB - Included
Memory: 8GB DDR4 2133Mhz High Performance RAM [ + R399.00 ]
Graphics Card: Integrated GPU Share Up to 1GB Graphics - Included
Sound Card: Integrated 7.1 Channel HD Audio - Included
Primary Hard Drive: 128GB SSD Upto 500MB/s+ Speed Solid State Drive [ + R99.00 ]
Secondary Hard Drive: 1TB WD Blue 7200RPM 64MB Cache HDD [ + R699.00 ]
Main Optical Drive: 24x Dual Layer DVD +/- Writer - Included
Network Adapter: PCI 802.11g 54mbps Wireless Network Card [ + R249.00 ]
LCD Monitor: LG 23" Slim 1920x1080 Full HD IPS LED [ + R2,299.00 ]
Operating System: Windows 10 Home 64bit [ + R1,699.00 ]
Warranty: 2 Years Return To Base (1st yr. Parts & Labour, 2nd yr. Labour only) - Included
Discounted Configured Price: R 12,042.00

 

[Gboss]

So I've been playing around on Evetech's configurator tool, looking for the best PC (including monitor) on a budget of only R12 000.

I realise that's a tight ask, so I had to compromise: I'm settling for the new generation Intel processor and motherboard chipset, and adding in an SSD for another decent boost. Any hope of basic gaming will have to wait until I can save up for a decent graphics card.

Do you agree that this configuration is as good as I'll be able to do?

PC Case: Standard Black Case - Included
Power Supply: Antec 400W 80+ High Performance Power Supply [ + R499.00 ]
Processor: Intel Core i5-6500 (3.2GHz, 6M Cache, 4x Cores, 3.6GHz Turbo) - Included
Heatsink & CPU Fan: Standard Heatsink & CPU Fan - Included
Motherboard: MSI H110M PRO VD LGA 1151 DDR4 USB 3.1 MB - Included
Memory: 8GB DDR4 2133Mhz High Performance RAM [ + R399.00 ]
Graphics Card: Integrated GPU Share Up to 1GB Graphics - Included
Sound Card: Integrated 7.1 Channel HD Audio - Included
Primary Hard Drive: 128GB SSD Upto 500MB/s+ Speed Solid State Drive [ + R99.00 ]
Secondary Hard Drive: 1TB WD Blue 7200RPM 64MB Cache HDD [ + R699.00 ]
Main Optical Drive: 24x Dual Layer DVD +/- Writer - Included
Network Adapter: PCI 802.11g 54mbps Wireless Network Card [ + R249.00 ]
LCD Monitor: LG 23" Slim 1920x1080 Full HD IPS LED [ + R2,299.00 ]
Operating System: Windows 10 Home 64bit [ + R1,699.00 ]
Warranty: 2 Years Return To Base (1st yr. Parts & Labour, 2nd yr. Labour only) - Included
Discounted Configured Price: R 12,042.00

That's a decently spec'd PC. I would change the PSU to something a little closer to the 650W region if you ever plan on putting a GPU in there later. That 400W won't cut the mustard and it will be cheaper to replace it now rather than later. Later will mean you have to purchase a new PSU to accommodate you new GPU.

 

[HavocXphere]

Not bad. Couple of instinct driven comments (I'm not up to date on this stuff)

PSU is too small for gaming upgrade
the wan card is ***
skip the optical drive
sdd is too small...but ok if necessary
OS looks fkin expensive. Pretty sure I paid <900 for a Pro version of 7

I rate careful use of 2nd hand carbonite would serve you well at the 12k pricepoint. The gear you're looking at is right about at the point which is being dumped bu kids with more (parents) money than common sense.

 

[ponder]

What are you going to use the PC for?

 

[Foxhound5366]

That's a decently spec'd PC. I would change the PSU to something a little closer to the 650W region if you ever plan on putting a GPU in there later. That 400W won't cut the mustard and it will be cheaper to replace it now rather than later. Later will mean you have to purchase a new PSU to accommodate you new GPU.

Yeah, I figured about the PSU. Good point, thanks. Will have to see if there's any room in the old budget.

Not bad. Couple of instinct driven comments (I'm not up to date on this stuff)

PSU is too small for gaming upgrade
the wan card is ***
skip the optical drive
sdd is too small...but ok if necessary
OS looks fkin expensive. Pretty sure I paid <900 for a Pro version of 7

I rate careful use of 2nd hand carbonite would serve you well at the 12k pricepoint. The gear you're looking at is right about at the point which is being dumped bu kids with more (parents) money than common sense.

OK, I'll check out Carbonite, thanks. What makes the WAN card so bad? It was the only option selectable on Evetech, and they make a big song and dance about how they only stock quality parts.

What are you going to use the PC for?

Most just productivity and media consumption, but the occasional spot of recreational gaming won't be out of line (once I get the GPU). I actually used the recommended specs to power Oculus Rift as a baseline when putting this together, because that'll ensure some future-proofing. If only I could afford a GTX 970 at this price point!

 

[Wasabee!]

Wireless 802.11g is two generations old (n and ac are newer) and limited to the congested 2.4Ghz band. Scrap it!

 

[Foxhound5366]

Wireless 802.11g is two generations old (n and ac are newer) and limited to the congested 2.4Ghz band. Scrap it!

OK cool, duly scrapped Wasabee!

 

[Johnatan56]

OK cool, duly scrapped Wasabee!

Also 802.11g is 54Mbps ~6MB/s. 802.11n is 300-450Mbps(depending on configuration), has better coverage/less dead spots, you might want to go with that. (A LAN cable will always be preferable)
I agree that you would need to look at a bigger PSU if you want to add a graphics card later.
My laptop does not have an optical port anymore, haven't even seen a need for it, so you could always cut that out. Install Windows via a USB. You can also always install one later if you need it or use another machine if you have one on the network.

You should be able to casually game LoL/Dota 2/maybe HotS and Smite as well. (EDIT: I mean with the onboard graphics.)

Else, the build is quite nice.

 

[Foxhound5366]

Also 802.11g is 54Mbps ~6MB/s. 802.11n is 300-450Mbps(depending on configuration), has better coverage/less dead spots, you might want to go with that. (A LAN cable will always be preferable)
I agree that you would need to look at a bigger PSU if you want to add a graphics card later.
My laptop does not have an optical port anymore, haven't even seen a need for it, so you could always cut that out. Install Windows via a USB. You can also always install one later if you need it or use another machine if you have one on the network.

You should be able to casually game LoL/Dota 2/maybe HotS and Smite as well.

Else, the build is quite nice.

Thanks for the detailed response Johnatan56 ... this is what the Internet should be about: people being helpful!

Tried checking out Carbonite.co.za just now, but it seems to be dead. Not connecting at all. Is that just me, or does anybody know what's going on?

 

[Johnatan56]

Thanks for the detailed response Johnatan56 ... this is what the Internet should be about: people being helpful!

Tried checking out Carbonite.co.za just now, but it seems to be dead. Not connecting at all. Is that just me, or does anybody know what's going on?

Timing out for me as well.
Responding to pings though:

Pinging carbonite.co.za [196.46.186.152] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 196.46.186.152: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=56
Reply from 196.46.186.152: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=56
Reply from 196.46.186.152: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=56
Reply from 196.46.186.152: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=56

Ping statistics for 196.46.186.152:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 27ms, Maximum = 28ms, Average = 27ms

EDIT: and can't connect with a proxy. Site maintenance?

 

[Progenix Oj101]

Not bad. Couple of instinct driven comments (I'm not up to date on this stuff)

PSU is too small for gaming upgrade
the wan card is ***
skip the optical drive
sdd is too small...but ok if necessary
OS looks fkin expensive. Pretty sure I paid <900 for a Pro version of 7

I rate careful use of 2nd hand carbonite would serve you well at the 12k pricepoint. The gear you're looking at is right about at the point which is being dumped bu kids with more (parents) money than common sense.

PSU will be fine even with a GeForce GTX 980 (maybe even a 980 Ti although it will be running close to capacity)
The WAN card is indeed crap, it's ancient
Optical drive? What's that? He's right though, I haven't used one for many years now
SSD is big enough for OS and a several dozen apps, just not games and media
I'm pretty sure you didn't, Home Basic was that price when it was discontinued and Pro (still available) is over R 2k

Second hand and last gen is a possibility, something like this...

Core i5-4590 - R 1,500 used
H87 motherboard - R 800 used
8 GB DDR3-1600 - R 700 used
256 GB SSD - R 1,200 from a reseller
3 TB hard drive - R 1,500 new - save yourself headache and heartache and buy this new
GeForce GTX 770 - R 2,300 used
Entry level case - R 450
500w PSU - R 800 new - you won't save a fortune buying second hand
24" monitor - R 1,600 used
Windows 8.1 64-bit (free upgrade to 10) - R 1,500

Total - R 12,350

That gives you about as much processing power, the same amount of RAM, double the SSD storage, triple the mechanical storage, a fairly beefy graphics card and a better PSU.

Edit - Carb is down, Jimbo. It should be online again a bit later today.

 

[HavocXphere]

I'm pretty sure you didn't, Home Basic was that price when it was discontinued and Pro (still available) is over R 2k

Nah was def round the 900 mark - a while back though. Builder's version that was on special. Only realised its Pro like 2 years later. Also bought a (unused) pro copy of windows 8 for <1k off a kind forumite here.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

Nah was def round the 900 mark - a while back though. Builder's version that was on special. Only realised its Pro like 2 years later. Also bought a (unused) pro copy of windows 8 for <1k off a kind forumite here.

Maybe someone getting rid of old stock (eg an order that wasn't collected)? Sold the wrong copy? Even at launch, Windows 7 Pro wasn't that cheap. Heck, we can shoot back to the Windows XP days and it wasn't that cheap - when XP Pro was discontinued it was around R 1,400.

When you say "builder's version" do you mean a DSP/OEM copy? If that's the case, it's "less than legal" as it should have been sold with components.

Windows 8 had a very low launch price, Incredible Connection was doing Pro for around R 700.

 

[Johnatan56]

PSU will be fine even with a GeForce GTX 980 (maybe even a 980 Ti although it will be running close to capacity)
The WAN card is indeed crap, it's ancient
Optical drive? What's that? He's right though, I haven't used one for many years now
SSD is big enough for OS and a several dozen apps, just not games and media
I'm pretty sure you didn't, Home Basic was that price when it was discontinued and Pro (still available) is over R 2k

cut

Well, if you check up on it, he would need about 340 Watt continuous for a GTX980 (with the rest of his system, using an online power calculator). 400W @ 80% = 320W. So yes, a slightly higher wattage PSU would be better. This would also allow him to overclock at a later stage if required. If he wanted to get an AMD card instead, he would also need a slightly more powerful PSU. Rather keep your options open. A 500W PSU @ 80% should be good.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

Well, if you check up on it, he would need about 340 Watt continuous for a GTX980.

The GTX 980 has a TDP of 195w. Add 50w for the CPU (it won't hit maximum load on most games, and the games that do are the type that won't hit maximum load on the graphics card) and another 40w for the rest of the system and you're still south of 300w.

400W @ 80% = 320W. So yes, a slightly higher wattage PSU would be better. This would also allow him to overclock at a later stage if required.

There's nothing wrong with running a decent PSU at above 80 % load, that specific Antec will have no problem providing in excess of 320w. I don't know why you think it has a limit of 80 % of its rated continuous output, but even if there was such a limit there's still a good amount of headroom with this setup and a GTX 980. Regardless, there's headroom to overclock the CPU and GPU by a decent margin with a 400w PSU.

If he wanted to get an AMD card instead, he would also need a slightly more powerful PSU. Rather keep your options open.

An older AMD card or something like a 295X2 will need a larger PSU, but judging my the R 12,000 budget for everything I doubt he's about to slap a 295X2 in that system. A Radeon R9 380, 380X and even the Fury Nano all use less power than the GeForce GTX 980 I mentioned.

A 500W PSU @ 80% should be good.

You'll see I mentioned a 500w in the specs I listed. The efficiency makes very little difference, whether it's rated at 80 % or 93 % it's the difference of 85w of heat and not much else.

 

[Johnatan56]

The GTX 980 has a TDP of 195w. Add 50w for the CPU (it won't hit maximum load on most games, and the games that do are the type that won't hit maximum load on the graphics card) and another 40w for the rest of the system and you're still south of 300w.



There's nothing wrong with running a decent PSU at above 80 % load, that specific Antec will have no problem providing in excess of 320w. I don't know why you think it has a limit of 80 % of its rated continuous output, but even if there was such a limit there's still a good amount of headroom with this setup and a GTX 980. Regardless, there's headroom to overclock the CPU and GPU by a decent margin with a 400w PSU.



An older AMD card or something like a 295X2 will need a larger PSU, but judging my the R 12,000 budget for everything I doubt he's about to slap a 295X2 in that system. A Radeon R9 380, 380X and even the Fury Nano all use less power than the GeForce GTX 980 I mentioned.



You'll see I mentioned a 500w in the specs I listed. The efficiency makes very little difference, whether it's rated at 80 % or 93 % it's the difference of 85w of heat and not much else.

That CPU is 65W. The graphics card and CPU can be overclocked. Always assume that the user maxes the system rather than saying never, you don't know what the future might hold.

In regards to the PSU, yes, it will most likely manage more, but always assume worst circumstance. A 500W PSU would leave head room.

The efficiency always matters, if you had a 1000W PSU with a 10% continued output rating, it won't get you far. I am talking about 80% efficiency in what it can constantly output, as iterated earlier, always assume the worst case scenario.

I used this site: http://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator to come up with the 337W btw. A bit more accurate than your guesswork.

EDIT: Items picked:
i5-6600K underclocked to 3.2Ghz
1x8GB DDR4
Nvidia GTX980
SSD
7200rpm SATA
4x USB3
1x standard keyboard
1x standard mouse
EDIT2: @90%

 

[Foxhound5366]

ok ok guys, let's call a peaceful end to the psu wars. I think we can all agree that the psu isn't the most expensive component in this system, and a few hundred either way isn't going to make the biggest difference.

Now that Carbonite is coming up sporadically I'm checking out a few of the full PCs on there, but they all seem to be sold from Johannesburg and none down here in the fairest Cape. I guess Capetonians prefer Gumtree.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

That CPU is 65W. The graphics card and CPU can be overclocked. Always assume that the user maxes the system rather than saying never, you don't know what the future might hold.

1. He's not using the iGPU with a graphics card, so knock off some power consumption for that.

2. He WILL NOT see 100 % CPU usage from a game while the graphics card is being maxed out. Games that are sitting at the maximum power draw on the graphics card will be sitting around 70-80 % usage on the CPU - you can try this for yourself. Once the CPU is sitting at 100 % and becomes the bottleneck, you will not see 100 % GPU usage. The GPU will then be drawing less than 195w, and its power consumption will scale back a lot faster than the CPU's consumption.

In regards to the PSU, yes, it will most likely manage more, but always assume worst circumstance. A 500W PSU would leave head room.

So will a 400w - over 25 % of its capacity as headroom in fact. In fact, a bit further down you gave a figure far higher than what I estimated and STILL showed that a 400w PSU would have headroom...

The efficiency always matters, if you had a 1000W PSU with a 10% continued output rating, it won't get you far. I am talking about 80% efficiency in what it can constantly output, as iterated earlier, always assume the worst case scenario.

You don't understand how efficiency works at all. A 1,000w PSU with a 10 % efficiency wouldn't supply 100w, it would supply 1,000w but would draw 10,000w from the wall with the remaining 9,000w being dissipated as heat. It does NOT change the output power, but rather the INPUT power.

I used this site: http://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator to come up with the 337W btw. A bit more accurate than your guesswork.

That calculator is a laugh at best, the way it works is it takes the maximum power draw of all your components and adds them together in order to give a figure you'll never hit. The general consensus is that the calculator is OK for people who don't have the slightest clue whether they need a 500w PSU or 1500w PSU, but for everyone else it's a joke. I'm going to quote myself from OCN as I this debate came up there as well.

That calculator is wrong, very wrong. If takes the maximum power draw of all items and adds them together, which doesn't make any sense unless you're in the habit of running Hotdog on your CPU, Memtest on your RAM and Furmark on your GPU simultaneously while all drives and fans are in the process of spinning up.

I just checked my current system, apparently I draw almost 1500w but even running GPUGrid and WCG 24/7 on all GPUs and cores which is far more than the average person would strain a system I'm doing simply splendidly with a 1200w. For the hell of it I checked my old setup (similar, but Xeon E5645s and Radeon HD 7970s/a GTX 580) and I came to over 1200w. That ran 24/7 for almost two years on.... A 1050w PSU.

For what it's worth, I'm drawing a little over 1250w from the wall at peak load, with a PSU that has an efficiency of 93 % - that means I'm drawing 1,163w from the 1,200w PSU when according to the PSU calculator linked above I should be drawing over 300w more than that (1,498w total).

 

[Johnatan56]

1. He's not using the iGPU with a graphics card, so knock off some power consumption for that.

2. He WILL NOT see 100 % CPU usage from a game while the graphics card is being maxed out. Games that are sitting at the maximum power draw on the graphics card will be sitting around 70-80 % usage on the CPU - you can try this for yourself. Once the CPU is sitting at 100 % and becomes the bottleneck, you will not see 100 % GPU usage. The GPU will then be drawing less than 195w, and its power consumption will scale back a lot faster than the CPU's consumption.

So will a 400w - over 25 % of its capacity as headroom in fact. In fact, a bit further down you gave a figure far higher than what I estimated and STILL showed that a 400w PSU would have headroom...

You don't understand how efficiency works at all. A 1,000w PSU with a 10 % efficiency wouldn't supply 100w, it would supply 1,000w but would draw 10,000w from the wall with the remaining 9,000w being dissipated as heat. It does NOT change the output power, but rather the INPUT power.

That calculator is a laugh at best, the way it works is it takes the maximum power draw of all your components and adds them together in order to give a figure you'll never hit. The general consensus is that the calculator is OK for people who don't have the slightest clue whether they need a 500w PSU or 1500w PSU, but for everyone else it's a joke. I'm going to quote myself from OCN as I this debate came up there as well.

For what it's worth, I'm drawing a little over 1250w from the wall at peak load, with a PSU that has an efficiency of 93 % - that means I'm drawing 1,163w from the 1,200w PSU when according to the PSU calculator linked above I should be drawing over 300w more than that (1,498w total).

You know there are some lovely things about Dx12 coming around.
It allows the GPU to schedule its own tasks, no longer needing the CPU to do it, therefore one could potentially max out both the CPU and GPU (which before caused no workload to be sent to the GPU due to the CPU being swamped).
Another lovely thing about Dx12 will allow you to use your integrated GPU to improve performance.

Then the last bit of the calculator. It's for worst case scenario, which is what one would like to plan for. Would you mind posting where you quoted yourself from?
I am busy checking up on efficiency of a PSU, if you have any links, will give them a read (always like learning new things). From reading up, 400W PSU is fine then.

 

[Progenix Oj101]

You know there are some lovely things about Dx12 coming around.
It allows the GPU to schedule its own tasks, no longer needing the CPU to do it, therefore one could potentially max out both the CPU and GPU (which before caused no workload to be sent to the GPU due to the CPU being swamped).
Another lovely thing about Dx12 will allow you to use your integrated GPU to improve performance.

Then the last bit of the calculator. It's for worst case scenario, which is what one would like to plan for. Would you mind posting where you quoted yourself from?
I am busy checking up on efficiency of a PSU, if you have any links, will give them a read (always like learning new things). From reading up, 400W PSU is fine then.

The improvements offered by DX12 will be more pronounced in CPU bottlenecked situations, in GPU bottlenecked situations the difference will be much smaller. It isn't going to make more of the CPU used, but rather that which is will be more efficient.

An example of the GPU being the bottleneck would be seeing 70 % CPU usage with GPU usage sitting at or just below 100 % - typical of most games on a recent i5 CPU mated with a fairly high end GPU.. This is a scenario where getting more out of the CPU won't be of great benefit as it isn't where the bottleneck lies.

Where the difference will be most pronounced is in a situation where you're sitting at CPU usage of around 100 % while the GPU is sitting at something like 60 % - this is more or less what you'd get from a Pentium Dual Core or i3 combined with a fairly high end GPU. I can't give specifics here as it is a very unusual setup - most people won't mix such a low end CPU with a high end GPU. What DirectX 12 hopes to bring to the table is making this scenario a plausible gaming system with less emphasis on the CPU than we have now.

As for the calculator being a worst case scenario, it is more like an impossible scenario. I CANNOT get my system to within 20 % of what the calculator says I need, and on a lower end system where for example the drives and fans make up a larger percentage of the total power draw the difference will be even greater. Drives and fans ONLY draw their maximum current while spinning up from a standstill, once they're rotating it takes very little power to keep them spinning. If you have 10 fans in your PC that draw 4.8w each while spinning up and only 0.6w once up to speed, the calculator is going to say you need 48w for the fans when in reality you only draw that when you hit the power button and after that it would drop to 6w. That's 42w it claims you need which you really don't.

Hard drives are a similar scenario. A drive in the process of spinning up may draw 15w, a drive idling (which is what they do once in a game) only 6w (and even if accessing data it's a few blimps of around 10w). If you have four drives in your system, the calculator reckons you need to have 60w available to the drives at all times when the reality is that while you're in the middle of a game and the most power hungry components are drawing their maximum realistic simultaneous load the drives is down at around 24w - that's another 36w you don't need added to what a calculator says that you do need.

This is why you can't take maximum power draws and add them together. It would not represent a worst case scenario but rather an impossible scenario.

Lastly, the link. http://www.overclock.net/t/1534236/the-correct-way-to-use-the-extreme-outervision-psu-calculator It's one of many discussions about that calculator, I'm on my tablet so I'm not about to start hunting them all down