Israel Considers Pre-Emptive Attack On Iran

[I want a GTI]

You should read the thread as has been said that was a different time and the world was in a very very different mindset after 6 years of world war. Nuclear weapons have not been used since perhaps as a testament to the progress humanity has made by not needing such barbarous methods of warfare. Also don't know where you getting the idea of America falling as a superpower hav'nt really seen anything to support this.

I don't care about eras. There are Yanky nuthuggers on this forum that attempt to justify the use of the nuclear weapons and claim it saved more lives than it took.

There can never be justification for killing unarmed civilians and civilian infrastructure. The planned massacre of hundreds of thousands of civilians is a crime against humanity. I don't see how the Jews killed in the chambers deserve more sympathy than the Japs that were slayed. If anything, the persons responsible for such crimes against a civilian population should be tried for indiscriminate war crimes and crimes against humanity. When you attack a civilian population and civilian infrastructure, then that constitutes terrorism. Contrary to popular opinion, one doesn't need muslims as a precondition for terrorism. The greatest act of terror in modern history was the two nuclear bombs dropped on a helpless civilian population.

You can take your flimsy justification and tell that to the families of the hundreds of thousands of Japs that suffer till today.

What does 6 years of war have to do with anything? If 6 years of war can justify such atrocity, than I suppose 60 years of occupation should justify similar. The wheel is round like that.

On the superpower issue, I concur, there's nothing to support the notion of a superpower in decline, uhm except that China owns the US, and the small issue of 14 trillion dollars of debt, that only seems to be heading in one direction. What makes it worse is that Russia and China are on a roll.

Which, brings me back to my main point, the apartheid state hasn't made too many allies, and when the States falls as a dominant global power(and yes she will), Israel will suffer a great defeat, and that will be good for her, in the same way that the defeat of WWII was good for Germany in the long run. A defeat is necessary to bring them back down to earth, ground them a bit, because that lot is inebriated with its ability to get away with anything. From land grabs and settlement constructions to apartheid walls and invasions of Lebanon. Only a defeat will suffice as medication for such inebriation.

Jewish professor of political science, Dr Norman Finkelstein seems to agree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q3pBTUmx-Q

 

[MattyW]

I don't care about eras. There are Yanky nuthuggers on this forum that attempt to justify the use of the nuclear weapons and claim it saved more lives than it took.

As in fairness their are people bordering on radical and dangerous muslim extremism on this forum.

There can never be justification for killing unarmed civilians and civilian infrastructure. The planned massacre of hundreds of thousands of civilians is a crime against humanity. I don't see how the Jews killed in the chambers deserve more sympathy than the Japs that were slayed. If anything, the persons responsible for such crimes against a civilian population should be tried for indiscriminate war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I sincerly doubt anyone who had any real power or influence over the decision to use the atomic bombs in world war 2 is still alive, also as pointed out CONTINUALLY in the proir posts no one is trying to justify the use of nuclear weapons, all I said was it was a different time and it's very easy to sit here and in retrospect condemn the actions of the people then, but we are not living in that time we do not know their thoughts or their mindsets and if you believe in God then you can be sure they have had to answer for their actions.

Also according to wikipedia I doubt what the Americans did would be considered terrorism, through in fairness their are something like a hundred definitions of terrorism.

Nonetheless, Hoffman himself believes it is possible to identify some key characteristics of terrorism. He proposes that:


By distinguishing terrorists from other types of criminals and terrorism from other forms of crime, we come to appreciate that terrorism is :1. ineluctably political in aims and motives
2. violent – or, equally important, threatens violence
3. designed to have far-reaching psychological repercussions beyond the immediate victim or target
4. conducted by an organization with an identifiable chain of command or conspiratorial cell structure (whose members wear no uniform or identifying insignia) and
5. perpetrated by a subnational group or non-state entity

In this definition point 5 and possibly point 3 would probably not fit in with what the americans did, as their is no proof that the bombs wern't used purely to end the war.

Terrorism is defined as political violence in an asymmetrical conflict that is designed to induce terror and psychic fear (sometimes indiscriminate) through the violent victimization and destruction of noncombatant targets (sometimes iconic symbols). Such acts are meant to send a message from an illicit clandestine organization. The purpose of terrorism is to exploit the media in order to achieve maximum attainable publicity as an amplifying force multiplier in order to influence the targeted audience(s) in order to reach short- and midterm political goals and/or desired long-term end states."[23]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

Contrary to popular opinion, one doesn't need muslims as a precondition for terrorism

Where is this popular opinion, you can't decide what the popular opinion is. I believe most educated people would agree their are other terorists like the IRA, The Red Army Faction exct. it's you who are painting the the picture that muslim extremists are a preclude for terrorism, I certainly don't remember anyone in the thread saying only muslims can be terrorists, it is however also true that almost all modern terorism has been conducted by muslim extremists including horrific events like 9/11.

You can take your flimsy justification and tell that to the families of the hundreds of thousands of Japs that suffer till today.

America gave a great deal of aid for reconstruction and humanterian causes to Japan after the war.

From the end of the war to the end of 1953, the U.S. provided grants and credits amounting to $5.9 billion to Asian countries, especially China/Taiwan ($1.051 billion), India ($255 million), Indonesia ($215 million), Japan ($2.44 billion), South Korea ($894 million), Pakistan ($98 million) and the Philippines ($803 million). In addition, another $282 million went to Israel and $196 million to the rest of the Middle East.[89] All this aid was separate from the Marshall Plan, The total of American grants and loans to the world, 1945–53, came to $44.3 billion.

Also the fact that America helped the nation that they were at war with would seem to exclude it from the definition of terrorism, I have certainly never seen other terrorists sending aid to their victims. Note I am not trying to take away from the suffering that the Japennese experienced but at least their was an effort to help people there unlike ANY of the terror cells operating today who only care about the agenda they are pushing.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Areas_without_the_Plan

What does 6 years of war have to do with anything? If 6 years of war can justify such atrocity, than I suppose 60 years of occupation should justify similar. The wheel is round like that.

That's a overly simplified view of the situation the fact is Jerusalem has been fought over by christian, muslim and jews for the last 1500 years with atrocities commited on all sides, it's far to simple to say 60 years of occupation justifies anything, please read through the entire link below I won't quote it as it's far to long.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem

On the superpower issue, I concur, there's nothing to support the notion of a superpower in decline, uhm except that China owns the US, and the small issue of 14 trillion dollars of debt, that only seems to be heading in one direction. What makes it worse is that Russia and China are on a roll.

China has it's own debt problem

Considered to be an economic behemoth, few have asked after China's debt which, depending on how it is measured, accounts for between 60 to 150 percent of G.D.P. While China's economy is doing better than most, it's long term welfare depends on market liberalization, says Victor Shih, professor of political science at Northwestern University: "When we take into account all the liabilities of state-owned enterprises, [national debt] comes out to be over 150 percent of the Chinese economy. ... There is a huge amount of inefficiency in the economy which will create a big drag on the Chinese economy going forward."

Link: http://bigthink.com/ideas/39140
http://www.manilatimes.net/index.php/sunday-times/front-pages/895-does-china-have-a-debt-problem

China is very dependant on a stong America to grow itself out of debt, china's economy is growing at a massive rate but that is largely due to american consumerism and without it China would be facing a similiar debt problem in no time. China does appear to be doing well but Russia?? At least I have not heard anything about them in the last while, maybe it's just me.

continued on next page

 

[MattyW]

Which, brings me back to my main point, the apartheid state hasn't made too many allies, and when the States falls as a dominant global power(and yes she will), Israel will suffer a great defeat, and that will be good for her, in the same way that the defeat of WWII was good for Germany in the long run. A defeat is necessary to bring them back down to earth, ground them a bit, because that lot is inebriated with its ability to get away with anything. From land grabs and settlement constructions to apartheid walls and invasions of Lebanon. Only a defeat will suffice as medication for such inebriation.

Israel has quite a few important allies

Israel has provided China with technological assistance in the areas of advanced agriculture and irrigation. Bilateral R&D projects, supported by the China-Israel Agricultural Research Fund, are focused on the development of new varieties of fruit and vegetables, agricultural biotechnology and applying modern technologies for processing fresh produce. Israel has built three major demonstration farms in China and several training centers which are supported by both Chinese and Israeli ministries of agriculture.

Israel has also provided China with military assistance, expertise and technology. According to a report from the US-China Security Review Commission, "Israel ranks second only to Russia as a weapons system provider to China and as a conduit for sophisticated military technology, followed by France and Germany." Israel was ready to sell China the Phalcon, an Israeli airborne early-warning radar system (AWACS), until the United States forced it to cancel the deal.[71][72]

Since the establishment of diplomatic relations, cultural exchange has been a major component of the bilateral relations, as both sides recognise the importance of creating a strong foundation based on their ancient and rich histories.[73] In 2007, China launched a countrywide Festival of Culture in Israel to mark 15 years of relations

India established diplomatic relations with the State of Israel in 1992 and has since become Israel's strongest ally in Asia.[75][76] The two countries cooperate in anti-terrorist activities in the Middle East and Southern Asia. Israel is India's largest arms provider and India is Israel's principal arms market, and the trade volume between the two countries has increased significantly in the past few years.[77] Co-operation has taken place in the space sector as well with India launching Israeli satellites. India became the top source market for Israel from Asia in 2010 with 41,000 tourist arrivals in that year.[78]

Israel and India share intelligence on terrorist groups. They have developed close defense and security ties since establishing diplomatic relations in 1991. Israel is India's biggest arms supplier, overtaking Russia in 2009; the U.S. even gave Israel approval to sell the Phalcon to India after earlier forcing Jersualem to cancel a similar deal with China. India has bought more than $5 billion worth of Israeli equipment since 2002. In addition, Israel is training Indian military units and discussing an arrangement to give Indian commandos instruction in counter-terrorist tactics and urban warfare.[79] In December 2008, Israel and India signed a memorandum to set up an Indo-Israel Legal Colloquium to facilitate discussions and exchange programs between judges and

Israel and Germany maintain a "special relationship" based on shared beliefs, Western values and a combination of historical perspectives.[117] Among the most important factors in their relations is Nazi Germany's role in the genocide of European Jews during the Holocaust.[118]

Germany is a prime supplier of arms to Israel, including Dolphin submarines. The military co-operation has been discreet but mutually profitable: Israeli intelligence, for example, sent captured Warsaw Pact armour to West Germany to be analysed. The results aided the German development of an anti-tank system.[

In September 2010, Israel and Russia signed a comprehensive military agreement that will "increase cooperation on combating terrorism" and the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak met with his Russian counterpart, Anatoly Serdyukov and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, and signed the agreement during a ceremony in Moscow. The Russian military plans on purchasing additional a Israeli unmanned aerial vehicles. Russia previously bought 12 drones from the Israel Aerospace Industries following the war in South Ossetia.[130]

Serdyukov said it was "important to borrow experience" from the Israeli armed forces for the "modernization of Russian armed forces."

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Israel

These are just some of their international relations

Jewish professor of political science, Dr Norman Finkelstein seems to agree

Doesn't change my or I suspect anyone else's opinion and just as a counter balance I offer up

A Muslim Zionist
Joel Richardson interviews sheikh who enthusiastically supports Israel

JR: If the Quran actually affirms the right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel, what then would you say is the primary cause of such widespread Muslim opinion and sentiment to the contrary?

SP: It is basically a rejection of the Quran and a heretical reinterpretation of the Islamic tradition, which is frequently associated with ignorance and political opportunism. That is the reason why I think that refuting Wahhabism, restoring Islamic tradition in agreement with its authentic sources and promoting Jewish-Muslim mutual understanding and dialogue are different faces of the same task that is today entrusted to the Muslim scholars of courage and good will.

JR: You have been referred to as a Muslim Zionist. What is your view of the state of Israel?

SP: Israel is the only modern state whose existence can be consider a realization of a prophecy contained in both the Quran and the Bible. We must pray for that state to be a light for the nations and by our means we must support its right to independence, sovereignty and security. JR: What has been the response of other Muslim scholars and leaders concerning your positions?

Link: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=259429

 

[killadoob]

Matty explain something to me though as you seem to be able to give an opinion without much fuss .

What is the difference:

Hitler murders 200000 jews, US murders 200000 innocent japs. Why are those nuclear bombings not considered an atrocity? I get hitler murdered in cold blood but so did the american yet people somehow find a way to justify it. It is exactly the same as people go on about hitler gassing people but they justify the americans spraying vietnam with a chemical that killed half a million people and left a trial of devastation that affected up 3.8 million people.

I find it amazing how people can justify such horrific incidents.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Matty explain something to me though as you seem to be able to give an opinion without much fuss .

What is the difference:

Hitler murders 200000 jews, US murders 200000 innocent japs. Why are those nuclear bombings not considered an atrocity? I get hitler murdered in cold blood but so did the american yet people somehow find a way to justify it. It is exactly the same as people go on about hitler gassing people but they justify the americans spraying vietnam with a chemical that killed half a million people and left a trial of devastation that affected up 3.8 million people.

I find it amazing how people can justify such horrific incidents.

Eish Killa.

Same reason you can kill someone who is trying to kill you and its called self defense(aka a good thing even though someone dies just the same).

 

[killadoob]

Eish Killa.

Same reason you can kill someone who is trying to kill you and its called self defense(aka a good thing even though someone dies just the same).

So murdering 200000 innocent people is self defense? So you are telling me the US went into vietnam, started a war and then killed 500000 with agent orange and that is self defense?

 

[Zyzzyva]

So murdering 200000 innocent people is self defense? So you are telling me the US went into vietnam, started a war and then killed 500000 with agent orange and that is self defense?

No, but why something is done matters.

The USA have made a ton of mistakes and i'm sure many of their leaders are guilty of a lot and will answer for a bunch of stuff when they die(If you believe in that kind of thing). But the USA has tried to do the right thing most of the time. Iran's leadership on the other hand are about as crazy as a rabid dog eating rabies injections. Imadinnerjacket has stated publicly he wants to wipe another country off the face of the earth, which means the world need to stop him from getting the weapons needed to do it. Which means they might need to use a few guided missiles in an attempt to take out iran's nuclear ambitions. Just so you remember, the world has been trying to use diplomacy for years now. If it continues to fail then the world will have to force the issue.

Forcing the issue does not mean wiping iran off the face of the planet, it just means targeting a few buildings with guided missiles. If they don't act and Iran's leadership tries something crazy millions will die on both sides. Leadership is often about deciding between the lessor of two evils.

 

[marine1]

Killa you were talking about Japan now Vietnam?

 

[Palimino]

I can understand how the americans may have felt that anyone allied with Hitler merited no mercy and that things were desperate enough to use the atomic bombs.

I don’t think they knew the full extent of atomic bombs at the time. Just a bloody great explosion. I recall stories about American VIP’s watching the tests within radiation range (John Wayne was one).

 

[noxibox]

But the USA has tried to do the right thing most of the time. Iran's leadership on the other hand are about as crazy as a rabid dog eating rabies injections.

Americans have shown themselves quite capable of electing rabid crazy leaders.

Same reason you can kill someone who is trying to kill you and its called self defense(aka a good thing even though someone dies just the same).

The US knew full well the Japanese were essentially beaten, the war was over. They wanted to try out nuclear weapons and it simply provided a convenient excuse to use them.

I sincerly doubt anyone who had any real power or influence over the decision to use the atomic bombs in world war 2 is still alive, also as pointed out CONTINUALLY in the proir posts no one is trying to justify the use of nuclear weapons, all I said was it was a different time and it's very easy to sit here and in retrospect condemn the actions of the people then, but we are not living in that time we do not know their thoughts or their mindsets

We know why the allies carried out their bombing campaign against Dresden, and why the US carried out their firebombing of Japan. The purpose was to terrorise civilians. And this is not something seen in retrospect, they knew this as the purpose at the time.

Also don't know where you getting the idea of America falling as a superpower hav'nt really seen anything to support this.

Their influence has declined and the last two wars proved they don't have the military muscle they thought they had.

 

[I want a GTI]

As in fairness their are people bordering on radical and dangerous muslim extremism on this forum.



I sincerly doubt anyone who had any real power or influence over the decision to use the atomic bombs in world war 2 is still alive, also as pointed out CONTINUALLY in the proir posts no one is trying to justify the use of nuclear weapons, all I said was it was a different time and it's very easy to sit here and in retrospect condemn the actions of the people then, but we are not living in that time we do not know their thoughts or their mindsets and if you believe in God then you can be sure they have had to answer for their actions.

Also according to wikipedia I doubt what the Americans did would be considered terrorism, through in fairness their are something like a hundred definitions of terrorism.



In this definition point 5 and possibly point 3 would probably not fit in with what the americans did, as their is no proof that the bombs wern't used purely to end the war.



Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism



Where is this popular opinion, you can't decide what the popular opinion is. I believe most educated people would agree their are other terorists like the IRA, The Red Army Faction exct. it's you who are painting the the picture that muslim extremists are a preclude for terrorism, I certainly don't remember anyone in the thread saying only muslims can be terrorists, it is however also true that almost all modern terorism has been conducted by muslim extremists including horrific events like 9/11.


America gave a great deal of aid for reconstruction and humanterian causes to Japan after the war.



Also the fact that America helped the nation that they were at war with would seem to exclude it from the definition of terrorism, I have certainly never seen other terrorists sending aid to their victims. Note I am not trying to take away from the suffering that the Japennese experienced but at least their was an effort to help people there unlike ANY of the terror cells operating today who only care about the agenda they are pushing.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Areas_without_the_Plan



That's a overly simplified view of the situation the fact is Jerusalem has been fought over by christian, muslim and jews for the last 1500 years with atrocities commited on all sides, it's far to simple to say 60 years of occupation justifies anything, please read through the entire link below I won't quote it as it's far to long.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem



China has it's own debt problem



Link: http://bigthink.com/ideas/39140
http://www.manilatimes.net/index.php/sunday-times/front-pages/895-does-china-have-a-debt-problem

China is very dependant on a stong America to grow itself out of debt, china's economy is growing at a massive rate but that is largely due to american consumerism and without it China would be facing a similiar debt problem in no time. China does appear to be doing well but Russia?? At least I have not heard anything about them in the last while, maybe it's just me.

continued on next page

Look mate, I would love to sit here and debate with you, but really there isn't much time or necessity to engage in verbose, polemical disceptation over an event that has occured in the past.

I shall re-iterate, any attack, whether by a faction, a militia group, or a State(including, but not limited to the United States), on unarmed civilians and civilian infrastructure constitutes terrorism in my eyes.

Even during war, if you attack civilians and civilian infrastructure, then that is considered a war crime. Really, the Hague Regulations(1907), UN Charter(1945) and the Geneva Conventions IV(1949) are all quite clear on the issue of civilians during war. I'm sure you don't need me to go search for these.

Also, the assistance and aid doesn't mean anything. Its trivial. No amount of aid can justify an act of terrorism or a war crime. Really, there's nothing you can say that will extenuate that deplorable war crime.

Really, if we look at modern history, the greatest warmongers are the terrorists sitting in DC. There is no other nation that has repeatedly engaged in unjustified wars on flimsy pretexts, from Vietnam to Iraq. They are the ones with the most civilian blood on their hands in every single war they initiate and participate in. I haven't seen Iran attack any Western State yet. It has repeatedly accused Israel of being reckless and has sworn to defend itself. What was the reason for going to war in Iraq? WMD's? Iraq didn't infringe on any right of any Western nation.

If we look at the US little fledgeling, Israel, they are even more of a militarised State. They conduct wars every 5 years: 48, 56, 67, 73, 78, 82, 87, 93, 96, 06, 09. That's not even bringing up the issue of the illegal blockade, the illegal apartheid wall or the illegal occupation and illegal acquisition of Palestinian land.

Really, even OBL doesn't have as much blood on his hands as these warmongers and the ones in DC.

Lol, at the juxtaposition of China in debt and the US in debt. Its difficult for me not to laugh at you, when you post things like that.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Lol, at the juxtaposition of China in debt and the US in debt. Its difficult for me not to laugh at you, when you post things like that.

China only owns about 7% of the US's debt. Trade between the two countries was also only about 300 billion dollars which is about 4% of the US gdp. The numbers are not quite as high as people think. China needs the US far more than the US needs China.

The US debt problem is still fixable, and hardly unique.http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/774/economics/list-of-national-debt-by-country/

 

[killadoob]

Killa you were talking about Japan now Vietnam?

Both incidents were atrocities marine yet neither incident is deemed so by most people, yet i have to keep hearing people like yourself go on and on and on about the germans killing the jews.

I talked about both incident marine if you read my posts so it is fairly clear the point i am trying to make is atrocities only seem to be remembered when it fits into the way people want to think. I can bet you think all the murdered jews was bad but you feel nothing for japs or the 3.8 million affected by agent orange.

The nukes were a good way to end the war
The US never knew agent orange was so bad

Those are the excuses i hear for such horrific acts against humanity, both those incidents are on the same scale as the germans in my opinion. Not that you will agree as you find always find a way to excuse the US. I honestly don't care about them but i find it shocking people find ways to defend the US while they condemn everyone else and call for the nuking of iran. Extremists they are i would have to say.

 

[I want a GTI]

China only owns about 7% of the US's debt. Trade between the two countries was also only about 300 billion dollars which is about 4% of the US gdp. The numbers are not quite as high as people think. China needs the US far more than the US needs China.

The US debt problem is still fixable, and hardly unique.http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/774/economics/list-of-national-debt-by-country/

I'm unsure whether you're just lying or that is an honest mistake.

As of May 2011 the largest single holder of U.S. government debt was China, with 36 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities (16% of total US public debt).[58]

 

[hawker]

I shall re-iterate, any attack, whether by a faction, a militia group, or a State(including, but not limited to the United States), on unarmed civilians and civilian infrastructure constitutes terrorism in my eyes.

Then you better drag the Luftwaffe, the RAF, and the USAF to the Hague for their night time bombing on cities.

 

[I want a GTI]

Then you better drag the Luftwaffe, the RAF, and the USAF to the Hague for their night time bombing on cities.

Yeah, don't see how Palestinian rocket attacks, in an attempt to rid themselves of the illegal occupation, constitutes terrorism but a nuclear weapon on a civilian population does not.

The hypocrisy is ridiculous.

 

[killadoob]

Yeah, don't see how Palestinian rocket attacks, in an attempt to rid themselves of the occupation, constitutes terrorism but a nuclear weapon on a civilian population does not.

The hypocrisy is ridiculous.

LOL yup sadly this is the mentality i see plenty.

 

[Azbubu]

Did you know that Israel is named after Azrael, the archangel of death? Quite apt.

/ends trolling

 

[za1]

Did you know that Israel is named after Azrael, the archangel of death? Quite apt.

/ends trolling

well that is pure and utter crap.

 

[Azbubu]

well that is pure and utter crap.

You took it seriously? Really? Wow.