Java vs. Delphi

Ekhaatvensters said:
Well what I really wanted to add when i typed this, is to ask how easy it is to get a job straight out of university?
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You right and I'm not gonna try and fool u. I only look for experienced guys (2 - 4 years) because that is my need at the mo. I have a very demanding client and I need guys who can hit the ground running.

In saying that, one of MY concerns is that our company therefore becomes very "top heavy". We don't have many juniors. I just employed a guy in my team with 2 months Java experience, but then he has his Bsc Hons which told me he knew what he was doing (ok ok :D ). But I have initiated a "venture" with UCT and on the 31st our company will be attending the 3rd and 4th year exhibitions - albeit the BComm in IS faculty. I haven't made any connections in the Bsc faculty yet.

So, it's where the company is at. They will have a "plan" to get resourced and how they do it (experienced vs no exp), well thats for them to decide. We're also finding the 2- 4 yrs Java guys are asking for R25k + per month (excl agency fees!!), so we are seriously looking at juniors as well.
 
Thanks alot for all the inside info ;)

Well I think if you are lookiong at IS graduates, then the BSC ones can only be better, they just do a harder course, with almost exactly the same material, and the cleverer ones will get into BSc.

I'm not sure what the attraction is with BComm guys, but atleast it wont be that bad if I dont make it into BSc now, im sure to get into BComm.
 
Just to talk about maths not being important in comp sci..

I totally disagree with that. I cant talk about BCom IS, but BSc Comp Sci is mathematically based. At wits, comp sci is under math sci and we have to do mathematics until second year level. I could be biased perhaps (my second major is applied mathematics), but a good mathematical brain gives u a big advantage.

Im about to graduate (hopefully :P). I chose not to do Honours next year (many reasons for this) And i landed a job in development. Judging from this as well as the jobs my friends are getting to, bsc comp sci is def in demand

EDIT:
Back to original topic (:D), both delphi and java are good options. Id personally go with pascal (ja ja, 1970s bla bla) tho: learn the basics b4 u get into event driven gui stuff. You'll also appreciate the OO approach better after doing data structures the hard way!
 
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yes, i know you do actually need very good maths for the course, and it does help programming, but I was actualyl just talking about programming in general more that courses.

Like I said, I know someone who is a very good programmer, and failed SG maths.. he didnt like maths, but he did like programming. But maby it will hit him later and he wont be able to develop as well..
 
What type of applications should someone, who is busy studying, develop in their spare time? Server/Client, Database, GUI?

I've had a bit of experience with all of them, but would like to know where I should concentrate.

Cheers, Nick
 
@EkHaatvensters: No offence man, but what is your programming background because math has nothing to do with programming, and any programmer would tell you the same.

@Nickste: Both my Brother,Sister and Brother-In-Law program and what they told me was: There are 2 types of programming Jobs in South Africa (well 98% of them).
1) You work for a company's IT department where you are constantly busy with their Business applications (ie. ABSA bank and you work on their banking system the entire time)

2) You work for a IT company that writes Business Applications for other companies.

Both my Brother and Brother in law have worked for number 2 and said it sucks and then went to 1.

In these 2 settings the main thing you'll be doing is either Mainframe (ugh..) or C#/ASP.NET/SQL sub VB.NET in here if you hate yourself, JAVA/J2EE/SQL. Most companies opt for Server-side applications as their business application for obvious reasons(the smart ones ;) ).

What are you Studying & Where? Sorry if I missed it (didn't read the entire thread).

Oh yeah and I recommend Java because Delphi although OO (Yup it is OO) is no longer being developed by Borland and also it doesn't teach you the proper ways of programming ;). Seriously thought it hides many parts of OO from the developer and then when you switch over you realise you don't know jack about OO and you actually wasted your time.
 
Thanks for the info Gnome :)
I'm hopefully going to do a Bcom PPE (Politics, Philosophy & Economics)! Not quite programming orientated, but I can switch streams if I don't like the PPE.

Cheers, Nick
 
Well actually they also told me that although you have to be able to program (duh :) ) the most important part is the System Analisys since the programming becomes repetitive and it's not really challenging after about a month or two. So Bcom isn't a bad idea. It's going to be much more of a challenge getting the info from the customer/users of the system to make it work.

I'm doing BSc Computer Science and the Bcom Informatics students do most of the programming modules we do just with lots of business and Systems Analysis stuff mixed in(without getting too techinical), but I am taking the system analisys and a few business type modules(Business management and the like) anyway to make up the credits I need to get my degree... So what I'm trying to say is the lines are very blurred Bcom this Bsc that, not much differene except the BSc ppl do more math (well ok Third year differs quite abit but the imporant fundementals are covered in 1st & 2nd year).
 
Gnome said:
@EkHaatvensters: No offence man, but what is your programming background because math has nothing to do with programming, and any programmer would tell you the same.
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Err, i disagree. You NEED math to actually do proper programming . Math teaches you to :
(a) Breaking down/Solving problems
(b) Analysing and Logically solve a problem
(c) Understanding/Creating algorithms
etc etc

Only place where i can agree with that statement is if you are doing the following "programming"

(a) Creating/Editing front-ends/GUIs [moving around buttons/boxes/layouts]
(b) You work on an existing system and only "enhancing" or "tweaking" code [written by some hardcore math boffins]
(c) Not writing anything NEW [no designing aspect], but rather rehashing existing functionality
(d) Being spoon-fed the logic + algorithms if any is needed by senior programmers
(e) Based on (a), coding "simple" processes like "entering HR data into a database" ...

EDIT: Just for interest sakes, the definition of Mathematics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Math
Mathematics (colloquially, maths or math) is the academic discipline that deals with such concepts as quantity, structure, space and change. It evolved, through the use of abstraction and logical reasoning, from counting, calculation, measurement and the study of the shapes and motions of physical objects. Mathematicians explore such concepts, aiming to formulate new conjectures and establish their truth by rigorous deduction from appropriately chosen axioms and definitions.[1]
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If someone tells me "you don't need maths to program", that's like saying "you don't need biology to do surgery" .

The fastest we've seen the computer science [who did alot of maths] and the Bcom [lots of business] divide was when the client came with requirements in the lines of "this needs to happen faster" or "we need an algorithm to schedule this" or "we need something NEW" .
 
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Gnome said:
@EkHaatvensters: No offence man, but what is your programming background because math has nothing to do with programming, and any programmer would tell you the same.
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My programming background is nothing, im only going to start Bsc IS next year at UCT. but why do you say this? I never said you need maths or really had much of an opinion on it, I said you need good maths for the course, because they do maths for two or three years, and that gets VERY hard.
I also said i know someone whos a good programmer and ISN'T good at maths, so I was thinking the same thing you are saying.

So im just not sure why you are telling me that..

But btw, I always thought the sam thing as diabolus said, simply from hearing others say that, so tis not my opinion. It does make sense though, a person who is good at maths has a brain that work a certain type of way, and im guessing that is the right way for programming..
 
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LOL @ diabolus, you are programmer so you obviously know better than me. (Lol creating algorithms LOL)

@Ekhaatvensters: Sorry I think I misinterpreted your post, I also had calculas a plenty and it sucks, it's just a waste of time and contrary to what the other Programming Experts here say it does nothing for you. Good luck with the degree, I don't study @ UCT but I heard they have the best/one of the best IT deparments.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_mathematics

There's a difference between programming and problem solving.

If you develop a critical control system, u better prove that thing works properly. Computer scientists use mathematics to do this.
These proofs can be pages and pages (look at the literature, even simple proofs can be a pages) so they arent going to be used in your everyday systems.

Given few constraints and relatively simple problems (once formulated), mathematics will play little role.
 
depends on the person. If you are able to adapt, then learn delphi else do java if you really want to learn a programming language. 1st yr comsci they teach you things as if you have never coded in your life so its gonna save some time perhaps but then u will learn the same stuff which sucks.

Reason i say if you can't adapt don't is simple.. not everyone can easily switch from delphi/pascal or sometimes ansi-c to proper OO easily. Often those are the guys who brag in start of 1st yr and then a month in become humbled [;) don't skip lectures].. but with effort come right again.

That being said delphi is still used by alot of companies and given the opportunity i'd learn delphi just so that when u have to fix or add on to the old code that companies dislike porting or reworking entirely u atleast know something unlike me who is hopeless with vb, delphi :( (its just messy compared to java -shrug- i must find a book, compiler and then learn it but there are alot of other things i wanna learn too).
 
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I program in both Delphi and Java a lot, and if I had to choose I would go the Java route. Delphi is a good language to start with, but as previously mentioned has limited opportunities. It does Windows development VERY well, but the world seems to have moved away from that, just like it moved away from Dos to Windows back in the day.

Java has a wider scope and once I got used to it I actually prefered working with the Java language. I also much prefer Netbeans to the Delphi IDE.
 
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