Judges lay down the law - (live stream 2pm)

[Paul Hjul]

So which was it? Transcript anywhere?

the fact that anything is being said is a strong statement

but the CJ is trying very hard to be very diplomatic and a couple of things he has said worry me

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Coming from the Judiciary to the Executive, that is a very strong statement!

Nah, I disagree. He was at pains to be as vague as possible and basically just re-stated constitutional principles, as if everyone present doesn't know them.

Naturally I don't expect him to sink to Nhleko or Mantashe's level in his response, but the judiciary was effectively assaulted by these boorish clowns, and all he does is whimper about principles.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Nah, I disagree. He was at pains to be as vague as possible and basically just re-stated constitutional principles, as if everyone present doesn't know them.

Naturally I don't expect him to sink to Nhleko or Mantashe's level in his response, but the judiciary was effectively assaulted by these boorish clowns, and all he does is whimper about principles.

he is at pains to avoid needing to recuse himself ...

 

[JStrike]

Nah, I disagree. He was at pains to be as vague as possible and basically just re-stated constitutional principles, as if everyone present doesn't know them.

Naturally I don't expect him to sink to Nhleko or Mantashe's level in his response, but the judiciary was effectively assaulted by these boorish clowns, and all he does is whimper about principles.

As a criticism of the Executive from the Judiciary, that was as strong as it gets. Are you wanting some war between the two?

 

[yebocan]

Nah, I disagree. He was at pains to be as vague as possible and basically just re-stated constitutional principles, as if everyone present doesn't know them.

Naturally I don't expect him to sink to Nhleko or Mantashe's level in his response, but the judiciary was effectively assaulted by these boorish clowns, and all he does is whimper about principles.

Methinks his days are numbered....

 

[Paul Hjul]

As a criticism of the Executive from the Judiciary, that was as strong as it gets. Are you wanting some war between the two?

not at all

as strong as it gets is:

"As Chief Justice and judicial primus inter pares I have written to the National Director of Public Prosecutions to investigate the contempt shown to the dignity of the office of Judge by the following politicians ..."

 

[JStrike]

not at all

as strong as it gets is:

"As Chief Justice and judicial primus inter pares I have written to the National Director of Public Prosecutions to investigate the contempt shown to the dignity of the office of Judge by the following politicians ..."

If that was aimed at the executive, that is would end very badly for the Judiciary and South Africa

 

[MickeyD]

I think it is a extremely poor reflection on the executive that the judiciary has to resort to this type of communication.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

As a criticism of the Executive from the Judiciary, that was as strong as it gets. Are you wanting some war between the two?

Do you mean in a press conference context? Because no, judges have given the government vicious tongue lashings in the courts themselves.

And no, I don't want a war - although many in the executive and the ANC seemingly do. I just want the judiciary to stand up for itself. Luckily Moseneke did that to an extent, by actually standing by the judges. Motsoeneng seemed committed to repeating platitudes.

Methinks his days are numbered....

The next ANC congress will be fascinating in that respect. To see how much factional support he can muster up.

If that was aimed at the executive, that is would end very badly for the Judiciary and South Africa

Only in a banana republic would that be the case.

I think it is a extremely poor reflection on the executive that the judiciary has to resort to this type of communication.

Yep.

 

[Paul Hjul]

If that was aimed at the executive, that is would end very badly for the Judiciary and South Africa

no it would have ended very badly for the executive if they tried to interfere

 

[rza]

They didn't have to engage in a mud fight and expect to come out of it looking clean. Politicians have a right to lobby for favourable court decisions, as long as they don't exert illegal pressure on the judiciary, so why do you entertain them?

 

[yebocan]

I think it is a extremely poor reflection on the executive that the judiciary has to resort to this type of communication.

...would make a difference, if the executive actually gave two ****s...

 

[Voicy]

I have given some of my other reasons as well. Including the fact that he was appointed over more senior, qualified people, by someone with a track record of making flawed appointments.
It's not based on "I don't like".
Granted, so far he seems to have been done well, but I think we're getting to the crunch now. Hopefully he continues to speak truth to power.

I facepalmed when he got appointed, especially with his track record and his nonseparation of church and state...but he seems to have pulled it together ever since taking office, so I'm warily optimistic of him. Today will tell.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Do you mean in a press conference context? Because no, judges have given the government vicious tongue lashings in the courts themselves.

And no, I don't want a war - although many in the executive and the ANC seemingly do. I just want the judiciary to stand up for itself. Luckily Moseneke did that to an extent, by actually standing by the judges. Motsoeneng seemed committed to repeating platitudes.



The next ANC congress will be fascinating in that respect. To see how much factional support he can muster up.



Only in a banana republic would that be the case.

"vicious" tongue lashings in court don't have the same embarrassment factor for politicians - unfortunately the goal of the ANC is to force the judiciary to enter the political space where they will loose the public battle (trial in the media )

 

[MickeyD]

They didn't have to engage in a mud fight and expect to come out of it looking clean. Politicians have a right to lobby for favourable court decisions, as long as they don't exert illegal pressure on the judiciary, so why do you entertain them?

I think it has more to do with organs of state not honoring court rulings.

 

[MickeyD]

...would make a difference, if the executive actually gave two ****s...

true

 

[rza]

I think it has more to do with organs of state not honoring court rulings.

That's true, but what's the judiciary doing making court orders that are politically impossible to obey?

 

[Paul Hjul]

I think it has more to do with organs of state not honoring court rulings.

which should result in individuals who meet the criteria being charged with contempt and possibly committed to gaol

this country will be on the right track when we have a situation where the relevant minister approaches court with an application to vary an order that has not been complied with an sets out the measures being taken to ensure compliance and actually rocks up to court and is available to supplicate an apology
when defying a high court order as a civil servant is grounds for dismissal and a loss of pension

 

[Paul Hjul]

That's true, but what's the judiciary doing making court orders that are politically impossible to obey?

not adhering to a High Court order delivered by a full bench should be politically impossible to defy

 

[ToxicBunny]

That's true, but what's the judiciary doing making court orders that are politically impossible to obey?

Sorry what?

Nothing is politically impossible. The order is made based on the Law, which the politicians have to obey.