'Kills 30 blacks for every white murdered'

[Flanders]

*shock*!!!!&*(@#&@#&*@$*@#&*@()!@)!()(!@@

if that is all it takes for you to justify hatred then you need a course in logic.

people who have nothing, no property or anything of value are more likely to commit crimes than people that do. who is going to commit a crime, a guy who sits around all day in his shack on a saturday or a guy who sits and watches rugby on DSTV?

situations differ, people commit different kinds of crimes and have different motives, but show me white people who have murdered black people to get something from them, or show me white people who have needed anything a black person has.

not only that, not every murder is a pre-meditated break into the house torture and rape genocide murder. some people end up in squabbles and stab the other guy, some people kill their lovers, some people want to silence the victim of the house they've just robbed. race plays a factor in this as it language, culture and consequences affect a person, but RACE and genes itself does not make criminals.

Nothing can justify what Visagie has said but enough with the excuses please. It's more than tired now.

 

[STS]

Nothing can justify what Visagie has said but enough with the excuses please. It's more than tired now.

what excuses? it's logic. this is part of criminal profiling and psychology. you can work out who is lying through logic, you can work out a person's motives through logic, you can work out a person's situation through logic.

if i had nothing to lose and low paying job, and you own a house and a car and have a family, who is more likely to commit a crime? the downside is is 90% of the time the person with the ****test job turns out to be an uneducated black person. we can say we have better morals and that we wouldn't do that, but look at the situation we are in now.

what exuses am i making anyway? who am i making exuses for?

 

[Nick333]

Of course blanket racism is wrong but the solution to end it is to find out the root cause of it.

The root cause of it is stupidity. I can understand the anger but blaming all black people is irrational and stupid. As soon as these people suggest murdering innocent people in retaliation they step over a line and separate themselves from this farmers who are victims and should be taken seriously.

By your own line of reasoning if we should give these terrorists due consideration we should be giving farm murders the same consideration.

 

[Flanders]

what excuses? it's logic. this is part of criminal profiling and psychology. you can work out who is lying through logic, you can work out a person's motives through logic, you can work out a person's situation through logic.

if i had nothing to lose and low paying job, and you own a house and a car and have a family, who is more likely to commit a crime? the downside is is 90% of the time the person with the ****test job turns out to be an uneducated black person. we can say we have better morals and that we wouldn't do that, but look at the situation we are in now.

what exuses am i making anyway? who am i making exuses for?

Well then why aren't a proportionate number of destitute white people going out and robbing and killing black people? In fact, screw proportion. Why doesn't it happen fullstop?

 

[The Voice]

Crime is for lazy people looking for an easy way out

/end of

 

[CataclysmZA]

That's utter nonsense. There have been many recorded farm murder on black-owned farms. There was a Carte Blanche episode about this very issue last year...

I request that I amend my statement then, and apologise for assuming incorrectly. I was reading through the summary of the last official report into farm murders and attacks that was carried out by an investigating team in the SAPS in 2003 when I was busy posting, found here.

While its true that black-owned farms and farmers were victims of attacks, the proportion of black victims increased, I suppose, thanks to farms that were bought by the state and then given to communities and black buyers in order to give more of the land back to the people. That probably skews the ratios the media tend to use, but we won't know for sure until the next study how things have panned out. A lot of the crimes seem to be motivated by theft, but I doubt the ones on black farms are as vicious as the ones we read about on white farms. The report details that as of 2001, there were 45 well-known or high-profile cases that caught the attention of the media and newspapers and were continually referred to.

"The selection of cases can be criticised on three grounds: firstly almost all of them fall in the category of very serious farm attacks; secondly, there were relatively few black victims involved; and thirdly, only two of the attacks occurred on smallholdings."

It goes on to detail statistics of the well-known incidences, noting that out of the 45 discussed in the report, there was a total of 3500 cases analysed since 1991, with most falling between 1998 and 2001, the end of which report begins its analysis. Yes, while there were few black victims involved, its never noted how many of the farms targeted were black-owned. In fact, its actually impossible to track how many farmers there actually were during the report's period.

It remains to be actually proven beyond doubt that the attacks are racially-motivated, but the following segment provides a little more insight into it:

"In 7 of the 45 cases there was evidence that the attackers had prior knowledge of the circumstances obtaining on the targeted farms or smallholdings, while in 6 cases they had reconnoitred the areas. In two cases they approached the farm on some innocent pretext, such as wanting to buy something. In nine of the cases the victims were ambushed away from the farmhouse, perhaps while travelling along the road, while in eight cases the attackers broke into the house while the owners were away and waited for them to return. In four cases the employees or other inmates of the house were overpowered and tied up first by the attackers, who then waited for the farmer to return. In two cases the attacks were thwarted, while in the rest of the cases the victims were overpowered inside the house. In 26 (57.8%) of the case studies the attack took place inside the house, compared to 50.8% for farm attacks in general during 2001.

In the 45 cases there were a total of 110 victims, with an average of 2,4 victims per case. The average for farm attacks in general in 2001 was 1.4 victims per incident. In all but 8 of the cases murder was committed, a total of 49 (44.5%) of the victims being killed, including a young girl. This is much higher than the national average of 10.5% for 2001, which emphasises the seriousness of the case studies. In two cases the victims were killed while trying to flee from the attackers, in four cases they were killed while offering some resistance, and in at least six cases the victims were killed execution style, sometimes even with their hands tied behind their backs. In a few cases there was some logical reason for killing the victims, such as to prevent later identification, but in no less than 32 instances (71.1%) it would seem that there was no real reason for killing the victims. Eight of the victims were black and two coloured. One black and one coloured victim were killed."

In 42 of the case studies, robbery was committed. Nothing was stolen by the attackers in only three of the cases. In two of those cases the victims drove off after being ambushed and wounded in their cars, while in the third the attack was thwarted when the police arrived on the scene, but even in these three cases it can be said with a fair degree of certainty that the primary motive for the attacks was robbery. Unfortunately the statistics in this regard for farm attacks in general are inconclusive. In six of the cases revenge was mentioned as one of the motives, while in seven cases there were overt racial or political overtones. (In one of these cases, however, the purpose of the racist remarks was patently to mislead the police.) In all the cases where the motive might have been revenge or of a racial or political nature, the attackers also robbed items. One also cannot exclude the possibility that some of those attackers who claimed that the attacks had been motivated by political or racial issues, did so in order to evoke some sympathy."

Despite the low number of cases, the report notes that in 32 instances there was no need to kill the victims. They wouldn't be able to identify the attackers and they would only be able to report the incident to the police and the investigation would have been dropped without further evidence. Its never noted officially what the race of the attackers were in all 45 cases, but they were all in their late 20s by average.

"There were at least 114 attackers involved in the 45 case studies. (In some cases there might have been more than the known number of attackers.) There were therefore an average of 2.5 perpetrators in each attack. Four of the attackers were killed by the security forces or other farmers. In six cases the perpetrators could not be traced or there was insufficient evidence for a prosecution. Two of the prosecutions led to an acquittal because the State could not prove the case. In the other 36 cases some 78 accused were convicted. Their ages varied between 15 and 47, the average being 25.5 years. Most were in their twenties."

Look, I'm not trying to say the murders of black farm-owners and victims should be ignored - its just not reported often enough in the media and in official documentation available to the public to make any great assumption about all the attacks perpetrated. (hey, I'm white. But then again, what do I know? Its not like I have five family friends and a few high school mates who are farmers in rural areas that have been targeted before. Just sayin') But it speaks volumes that the ones we do know about, which mostly focus on white victims, are brutal and senseless in the violence seen. Its needless violence that gets the media's attention. 34.6% of farm attacks only result in assault or attempted murder as of 2001, and its not as widely reported.

Perhaps I'm going off-tangent here, but the high number of murder victims does turn this into a worrying trend that only seems to be increasing as time goes on. How many farmers are actually left in the areas that have been heavily targeted in the past? We simply don't know. Do you even know how many security firms there are left that are allowed to police and patrol the farms with permission to use deadly force? The government curbs that as well - in 2003 they disbanded many of the operating groups on the basis of the fact that they had been "part of the apartheid state's security apparatus".

As of April 27, 2010, its on public record that the number of deaths in farm attacks has amounted to 3361. That's over 3300 lives ended needlessly. There's even a list drawn up here with all the names (which appear predominantly white) of the deceased, and also includes those still in comas and black farmworkers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Its just so...tragic. And so very sad, and it makes me angry that people dismiss Visagie's words as that of a rambling lunatic. Maybe he's had friends die too, you know? I mean, Bin Laden was a freedom fighter for his country before the CIA gave him loads of guns to further their own agenda in Iraq. Can't really call a spade a spade until we know that , without a doubt, it is indeed a spade.

Get my point?

 

[Fudzy]

As of April 27, 2010, its on public record that the number of deaths in farm attacks has amounted to 3361. That's over 3300 lives ended needlessly. There's even a list drawn up here with all the names of the deceased, and also includes those still in comas and black farmworkers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Its just so...tragic. And so very sad, and it makes me angry that people dismiss Visagie's words as that of a rambling lunatic. Maybe he's had friends die too, you know? I mean, Bin Laden was a freedom fighter for his country before the CIA gave him loads of guns to further their own agenda in Iraq. Can't really call a spade a spade until we know that , without a doubt, it is indeed a spade.

Get my point?

You need to double check your sources... there was a site which went into the detail of almost all those links on that site as well as showed how many duplicates there were. Some of the people weren't even white or South African... busy trying to find it now.

 

[Sherbang]

You need to double check your sources... there was a site which went into the detail of almost all those links on that site as well as showed how many duplicates there were. Some of the people weren't even white or South African... busy trying to find it now.

You're talking about this?
http://www.listconspiracy.blogspot.com/

For many years various South African and international extremist right winged groups have held as the centre piece of their world view the idea that their is a white persecution happening in the Post Apartheid South Africa. Some groups going to far as to suggest genocide.

The entire premise behind this persecution was based on a single piece of evidence.

The list.

The list is a so called list of over 3000 white farmers names who have been murdered since 1994. In the following few blogs as you will observe I will entirely take apart the list piece by piece with some basic research into its validity. But before I do so let me explain why I go to such efforts and offer some apologies to anyone whose lost loved ones might get caught up in this ugly saga.

It is not my intention to sweep over the tragedy and trauma of the very real crime situation in South Africa. At the the same time I do no longer want to sit idly by and watch as this list swallows in more and more unwitting minds and poisons them into race based hatred. I take comfort in knowing if the names of my dead loved ones were being used for such a ugly and divisive purpose I would not appreciate it.

So who wrote this list ?

Adriana Striujt. A retired South African journalist living in the Netherlands.

I am of the opinion that she knowingly has set out to mislead and has deliberately posted individuals she clearly knows not to be farmers, or as you will see, to not even be dead on her list. As this blog moves along we will move into looking into the motives of her list and how people from both sides have been duped and for what sinister purpose.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. First the evidence.

 

[STS]

Well then why aren't a proportionate number of destitute white people going out and robbing and killing black people? In fact, screw proportion. Why doesn't it happen fullstop?

you are not listening again, it's more than just being poor, it has to do with upbringing, conditioning, desperation and up to the individual. and even IF there are psycho poor white people, what could they possibly gain from killing black people in townships unless they were brought up racist?

white people may not be going out and KILLING black people everyday, but i can tell you that there are a alot of horrible white racists that abuse black people, simply for being black, and i bet you that they've had a slightly better upbringing that most black kids in townships, so what does that tell you?

what about that teenager that went into the township and started shooting at random innocent people? was it his white genes that made him do it?

anyway, i see that you suggest i am making excuses, so tell me, what is the hard facts it all boils down to for you seems that i am just making excuses for black people?

 

[Fudzy]

You're talking about this?
http://www.listconspiracy.blogspot.com/

Yep that's it. Of course as with anything else in this world it's good to have views from different angles don't think censorbugbear is completely fabricated, they just manage the information extremely poorly.

 

[Nick333]

Well then why aren't a proportionate number of destitute white people going out and robbing and killing black people? In fact, screw proportion. Why doesn't it happen fullstop?

Well, for one thing the percentage of destitute white people is minimal when compared to the percentage of destitute black people. Secondly, black areas are far less appealing in terms of profit from crime. Thirdly, black people didn't give white people quite so much cause for bitterness through decades of institutionalized racism.

White people are just as prone to crime and violence under similar circumstances, just look at Irish, Jewish and Italian immigrants in America in the last two centuries. Of course you may be inclined to argue that those groups are culturally and genetically predisposed to criminal behaviour.

 

[CataclysmZA]

This is incorrect. The correct figure is about half that amount (1200) and not all were abused, beaten, raped and traumatised and eventually tortured to death, some were, not all.

I'm not sure how that compares, then, to this list of 3100 plus people who have died in farm attacks up to April 2010. Where does your figure of 1200 come from?

Edit: nevermind, read the linky. Interesting, but there's no investigation into whether the names that appear factually incorrect are in fact false. A lookup at the list of farmers in the Transvaal Farmer's Union might help, but there's no place to start.

people who have nothing, no property or anything of value are more likely to commit crimes than people that do. who is going to commit a crime, a guy who sits around all day in his shack on a saturday or a guy who sits and watches rugby on DSTV?

You're pretty close, but its actually goals as defined by society that motivate people to steal or commit crimes. Society says that you must be successful and have X amount of money in the bank, X amount of cars, etc., and that the only way to do that is by hard work. Most people aspire to these goals, however the means they use to achieve them varies. They either buck the trend by being generally corrupt, turn to criminal activities or become, in psych terms, "innovators" who rebel against the status quo and choose clever, manipulative methods to get what they want.

Crime is for lazy people looking for an easy way out

Crime is for people who don't know any other life or haven't had opportunities like the very people that post here. Few people who turn to crime as a means of financial support have the opportunity to change to something legitimately viable. Once they're in that system, there's very little chance of getting out.

 

[Fudzy]

I'm not sure how that compares, then, to this list of 3100 plus people who have died in farm attacks up to April 2010. Where does your figure of 1200 come from?

http://www.listconspiracy.blogspot.com/

 

[Haldex]

This is what irresponsible media can do...

 

[Nick333]

I'm not sure how that compares, then, to this list of 3100 plus people who have died in farm attacks up to April 2010. Where does your figure of 1200 come from?

Here.

You're talking about this?
http://www.listconspiracy.blogspot.com/

 

[Nick333]

This is what irresponsible media can do...

What exactly?

 

[STS]

I'm not sure how that compares, then, to this list of 3100 plus people who have died in farm attacks up to April 2010. Where does your figure of 1200 come from?

Edit: nevermind, read the linky. Interesting, but there's no investigation into whether the names that appear factually incorrect are in fact false. A lookup at the list of farmers in the Transvaal Farmer's Union might help, but there's no place to start.



You're pretty close, but its actually goals as defined by society that motivate people to steal or commit crimes. Society says that you must be successful and have X amount of money in the bank, X amount of cars, etc., and that the only way to do that is by hard work. Most people aspire to these goals, however the means they use to achieve them varies. They either buck the trend by being generally corrupt, turn to criminal activities or become, in psych terms, "innovators" who rebel against the status quo and choose clever, manipulative methods to get what they want.



Crime is for people who don't know any other life or haven't had opportunities like the very people that post here. Few people who turn to crime as a means of financial support have the opportunity to change to something legitimately viable. Once they're in that system, there's very little chance of getting out.

excellent post

 

[Flanders]

what could they possibly gain from killing black people in townships unless they were brought up racist?

I'm not talking about black people in townships. I'm talking about black people with more than they (destitute white people) have.

what about that teenager that went into the township and started shooting at random innocent people? was it his white genes that made him do it?

He said himself that he'd initially thought of going to a caravan park to murder people, most of whom were white: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/He-is-a-sick-boy-20081119 So, as far as I can tell, that one in a million example really is scraping the barrel.

anyway, i see that you suggest i am making excuses, so tell me, what is the hard facts it all boils down to for you seems that i am just making excuses for black people?

I'm not sure of all the hard facts it boils down to. Wish I knew. I think you may be onto something with what you said about upbringing and conditioning. What I am saying though, ultimately, is that there are no excuses.

Well, for one thing the percentage of destitute white people is minimal when compared to the percentage of destitute black people.

That may be so, but it's still a factor and yet somehow the outcome appears different.

Thirdly, black people didn't give white people quite so much cause for bitterness through decades of institutionalized racism.

Ah, now we're talking. I think if we take smalltownsky's upbringing and conditioning argument and add into the equation the above-mentioned chip-on-the-shoulder syndrome then we may be half way to our answer for this global phenomenon.

 

[smokey]

30-1 is too little if they want to win a "war". That's just M.A.D. - not winning. Then again, rhetoric is hardly ever logical now is it.

Still - it does show that such ideas are still alive and kicking in SA which is not good at all for peaceful co-existance in the future. Between Malema and these guys, SA has a lot of **** to clean out.

 

[wily me]

All bark and no bite hopefully. Do these idiots not realise that if they put their rhetoric into action, it will be harmful to both sides?




http://mg.co.za/article/2012-03-21-kill-30-blacks-for-every-white-murdered

What would this action achieve apart from inviting more negative and costly reaction. Unfortunately I have a family and their safety are more important than "AWB" style revenge so I cannot support this BS.

The way Zille is doing it is the only and correct way to find a solution and that is to perform better and show up the ANC and the ANCYL militants for what they really are.