Landmark cellphone bill passed

[Nick333]

I don't know. Its easy to get paranoid about this sort of thing, this legislation could be very effective against cash in transit heist gangs and the like, the sort of crime that costs our economy millions everyday.

On the other hand its also handy for a government interested in control. Freedom is always sacrificed for the sake of security and this bill is not going to protect us from the sort of criminal that is a mortal threat to the average citizen.

But government has carte blanche and will do what they want at the end of the day.

 

[mancombseepgood]

No, you can't discount that because it's a weak link. Once you open a gap for someone without a fixed, addressable address*, criminals can make use of that gap. If you can't provide proof of address, all you have to do is sign an affidavit stating your address and swearing that it is your real address. A criminal, by definition, is not going to care about breaking the law, and so won't have a problem swearing to a fake address.


*you know what I mean

If a phone has been used for crime, some information is better than none. Advocating for no info simply because we are too lazy to register our details is silly.

 

[mancombseepgood]

even if this was an overwhelming success and every criminal in south africa could now be caught, do the police, courts and jail system have the capacity to cope? i just cant believe that the miniscule effectiveness something like this will achieve can justify the costs. more likely the majority of the poor people in sa will be denied access and they will riot until this useless legislation is reversed or it will just largely be ignored anyway.

So you are saying... we can't put any more people behind bars - there are too many there already... let's give up on the idea of catching more until enough in prison are released to accomodate new ones.

I don't think it will be the raging success you suggest in the first paragraph, but I still fail to see why a criminal should be afforded anonymity and use of our cell networks in the first place.

 

[Skip]

morph1: Only the stupidest, most retarded of criminals will actually register with their own names. Any one with even the slightest hint of intelligence will either:
1. Use a fake ID, which are rife in SA.
2. Get a someone else to buy it for them. Go find a bergie and it will cost you a bottle of cheap booze.
3. Steal a phone that is registered. A significant chunk of stolen cellphones are not reported.

In other words this law will have little effect, all it does is add extra red tape and bureaucracy to the lives of ordinary citizens.

Not to mention that millions of the poorest in SA risk being cut off from their only means of telecommunications.

 

[Skip]

If a phone has been used for crime, some information is better than none.

What information? The only information you'll have is "A cellphone was used during this crime", something that I would bet applies to 99% of crimes more complicated than simple theft.

 

[rwenzori]

Information to be obtained and kept in respect of cellular phone and SIM-card

40.

(1) A telecommunication service provider who provides a mobile cellular service shall not—
(a) activate a SIM-card; or
(b) allow the use of any cellular phone, on its telecommunication system unless the particulars of the SIM-card or cellular phone are recorded and stored in the manner provided for in subsection (2).

(2) From the date of commencement of this section a telecommunication service provider must, subject to subsection (4), at own cost implement a process to record and store, and must record and store—
(a) the mobile subscriber integrated service digital network number (MSISDN number) of the SIM-card that is to be activated;
(b) the international mobile equipment identity number (IMEI number) of the cellular phone that is to be used; and
(c) the full names, identity number and residential, business and postal addresses of the person who requests that a SIM-card be activated or that a cellular phone be allowed to be used with a SIM-card.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (2)(c), a telecommunication service provider must—
(a) verify the full names and identity number of the person with reference to his or her identification document; and
(b) require the person to submit documentation in which his or her addresses are identified to the satisfaction of the telecommunication service provider.

I hope this is the right version ( I got it off http://www.internet.org.za/ ).

So it is SIM cards as well as phones. The numbers must be staggering - probably 4-5 times what FICA entailed.

Whew!

 

[Skip]

At least 30 million cellphones in SA. I reckon 60%-80% are pre-paid.

 

[rwenzori]

At least 30 million cellphones in SA. I reckon 60%-80% are pre-paid.

30m phones, say 30m SIMs, and 12 months to register them all! Not going to happen!

 

[Ricard]

I don't know. Its easy to get paranoid about this sort of thing, this legislation could be very effective against cash in transit heist gangs and the like, the sort of crime that costs our economy millions everyday.

How would this be an effective way to combat Cash-in-transit heists? The Criminals use hijacked cars! You think a registered cell phone will change anything?

there are other satellite based Cell phones out there that DONT require registration!

The register is only as good as the data that is captured by the networks. and you REALLY believe that criminals use their real ID books and such?

The govt is reacting to rubbish... same argument as "Ban the Pen 'cos too many people are signing finance contracts"

"Ban the PC 'cos it can make pirated movies"

 

[CathJ]

If a phone has been used for crime, some information is better than none. Advocating for no info simply because we are too lazy to register our details is silly.

But it's not that some information is better than none - it will be false information instead of none. I don't think that's better.

And it terms of the burden it puts on ordinary users - yes, I think it's an issue. It takes time to prove that you are who you say you are; and while I don't think the government will start tracking it us, it does leave the possibility open; and, someone now has my address, phone number, and id number on record, which leaves me open to identity theft as well as the risk of my details being sold on to advertisers/spammers.

 

[eltherza]

Step 1 : steal pre-paid phone from some poor guy who has no means to report the theft right way
Step 2 : commit crime
Step 3 : phone random person with phone during crime

If you get caught

Use evidence that the phone was there at the time of the crime and that it belongs to someone else so they should be the prime suspect.

OR

Step 1 : commit crime
Step 2 : report stolen phone was stolen 12hrs before crime

OR

Step 1 : Register phone
Step 2 : Give phone to lacky to use during crime
Step 3 : Make sure you have lots of witnesses that you didnt commit the crime.

I really don't see how it could be used in that manner. Cars are registered and they dont stop them getting stolen. Also you can brick a phone if you report it stolen which is a better means to stop crime.

Having said that, I think the reason for this is that if they find that I'm doing illegal things, they can look up my name and my number (much like a phone book).

In short, the Gov wants a HUGE phone book of cellphone to track or find people (eg. Court summons, speeding fines). But, just like that, it wont work to the effect they want it to.

 

[Mike_De_Lange]

^^ lol.

 

[jetpacman]

LOL i once went into FNB and convinced them to give me my ATM card with PIN without any ID after it had been stolen.

Its scary since at first they tell you no, but after negotiating and getting agro with them they eventually gave in. I cant complain because I needed my card desperately at the time but it goes to show how bad things can get.

What scares me is how flaky the security is when you phone the banks for anything. They ask you to verify who you are by giving your personal info.

I believe that they should at least call you back on the cellphone number on their system as a security mechanism. While not perfect its at least a bit safer.

Just think about this, when you fill in a cell phone contract, store card or even some surveys you are giving out your personal info. Anybody could use it to phone up and get your info. I cant take that.

 

[Ricard]

This whole exercise has FA to do with crime... FICA has your name and address, the new Debt act has your name and how much you owe who, the CellPhone act now requires you to do a FICA check.

So now the Govt has your bank account details, how much money your bond/debt you have, your mobile numbers all linked on an ID number.

This leads me to one conclusion.... SARS is behind this. They can track you down for tax evasion if they have that number. use Crime as an Excuse!!!!

 

[Tns]

And the really stupid thing is that people that use their phones for criminal activities will just register with false details...

no, the crims wont bother registering.

 

[magneto]

super stuipd bill...

this bill will really help out the tourism scene..

 

[incaseofire]

corrupt

Yesterday I got 2 passports while using my student card as identification....how dodgy is that? Legislation smation...it's just a piece of paper...won't work in the real life.

 

[qdada]

1 000 questions.


I think this law will be hard to police and enforce. It sounds as though the registration and verification will have to be made only from this point onwards. I read elsewhere that the cellphone market is the country is saturating, this suggests that the rate at which individuals are getting new phones/sims is diminishing.

Effectively this database will only contain new activations and should be no more than 3 or 4 million against approx 25 to 30 million active sims ?

So this law will also achieve 10 to 15 % compliance ?

Unless cellular providers do what the Banks deed, threaten to cut off the sim unless the user registers.

The next question is where will this registration be done ?

If i bought my handset from a second had shop from the dingiest corner of Jules Street in joburg, is that where i need to go to register ? How can I be certain my information wil be secure and wont be sold to someone else. This process was easier to do with the banks. How does this law impact the distribution of sim cards from Service Providers to the retailers ?

1 000 questions.

 

[rwenzori]

It sounds as though the registration and verification will have to be made only from this point onwards. I read elsewhere that the cellphone market is the country is saturating, this suggests that the rate at which individuals are getting new phones/sims is diminishing.

Effectively this database will only contain new activations and should be no more than 3 or 4 million against approx 25 to 30 million active sims ?

In the Bill I quoted above 40(1)(b) seems to say otherwise. What would be the point if criminals could just keep their old sims and phones?

It is a rubbish law though.

 

[bwana]

Yesterday I got 2 passports while using my student card as identification....how dodgy is that? Legislation smation...it's just a piece of paper...won't work in the real life.

How did you get two passports . . . and in a single day?