LCD and Plasma Bargains and Discussions thread

[wily me]

On a side note, saw the 55" Hisense passive 3D set (55T36 iirc) last week at hificorp. Bloody nice pic, and the 3d is really immersive. Game has it for 12k6, which puts it nicely between the new Sammy 50" e550 plasma for 10k, and the 59d550 for ~16k.

Any comments on 2D performance. Viewing angles looked good. This from a plasma fanboy.

That seems good, guarantee?

 

[PostmanPot]

Should we also throw a tantrum and throw all the toys out of our cots because you dare to belittle the LCD by calling it by rubbish statements like "Torch mode"? I refer you to the now closed thread when you attacked Mr_Bee for making comments that did not suit your visions?

Torch Mode is not rubbish at all, and it is as important to manufacturers and store owners as it is to discerning TV viewers. If you've ever set up a modern LCD/plasma, you'd have noticed "Store Mode or Home Mode" (or similar) when switching on for the first time. Torch mode AKA Store mode as led to a generation os people who prize the brightest screen above all else, especially when they're judging under bright shop lighting. Yet we know that all testing of TVs and quoted specifications and levels are done with calibration (similar settings to Movie mode), which entails lowering the back-light/brightness to achieve the best contrast ratio and picture quality under ideal conditions.

Torch mode = Store mode, or are they different?

 

[Mr_Bee]

Torch mode = Store mode, or are they different?

The statement to me seems like an attempt to belittle "Store Mode" as being something undesirable. Anyone can only speak for himself/herself and not others unless he/she has verifyable evidence, with links to support his/her statements. So we all can see where "Torch Mode" is used in the industry?

I did not see "Store Mode" used on my LG, other than as "Store Demo Mode" which plays images. LG and all other LED/LCDs that I have seen refers to their bright mode as "Vivid". The LG can even be set to switch automatically depending on lighting conditions.

 

[DominionZA]

For the record. What is the cheapest tv I can get that has the plex client and 3d, 40 inch or 47 inch will suffice and active vs passive 3d doesnt really phase me?

Media Link is LGs name for Plex. Cinema 3D units have Media Link AFAIK. Last I heard, all 2012 LG units will come with Media Link.
My LG is a 2011 model so purchased the LG ST600 to give me the capabilities.

The original story was Sammy and LG were licensing Plex. Last I heard is LG are changing now and including Google TV and dumping Media Link. This suits me better though although I don't know how true this is.
Media Link or Google TV still gives us plex though.

IMO LG 3D is the best 3D implementation, so LG Cinema 3D units should give you everything you are looking for.
Alternatively, get a cheaper 2011 model and add an ST600 (route I took).

 

[PostmanPot]

The statement to me seems like an attempt to belittle "Store Mode" as being something undesirable. Anyone can only speak for himself/herself and not others unless he/she has verifyable evidence, with links to support his/her statements. So we all can see where "Torch Mode" is used in the industry?

I did not see "Store Mode" used on my LG, other than as "Store Demo Mode" which plays images. LG and all other LED/LCDs that I have seen refers to their bright mode as "Vivid". The LG can even be set to switch automatically depending on lighting conditions.

Sure they can be desirable if one watches TV with high ambient lighting. Or if one thinks brightness is better (and the washed out, low detail colours that follow). It really boils down to a misunderstanding, most of which stems from judging TVs in brightly lit shops with TVs set to Torch mode, and the false premise that the brighter one is the better one.

Let's also not forget that Torch mode masks inferiorities like light bleed and white spots with LCD TVs which under dim conditions lead to low contrast ratios and inconsistent black levels.

Q: What is Torch Mode?

A: Torch Mode is a tongue-in-cheek term given to high-contrast, high-brightness settings on a television. These settings are often the factory default settings and are commonly used on display models in dealer showrooms to solicit the "wow factor" from consumers with maximum impact.

Torch mode = Store/Shop/Demo mode etc.

Vivid/Dynamic and other such settings come after in my experience, with Samsung/Sony TVs.

 

[Roman4604]

My LG is a 2011 model so purchased the LG ST600 to give me the capabilities.

2011 LWs also have Media Link, with the exception of the bottom end LW4500 (no Smart/Ethernet).

 

[wily me]

Torch Mode is not rubbish at all, and it is as important to manufacturers and store owners as it is to discerning TV viewers. If you've ever set up a modern LCD/plasma, you'd have noticed "Store Mode or Home Mode" (or similar) when switching on for the first time. Torch mode AKA Store mode as led to a generation os people who prize the brightest screen above all else, especially when they're judging under bright shop lighting. Yet we know that all testing of TVs and quoted specifications and levels are done with calibration (similar settings to Movie mode), which entails lowering the back-light/brightness to achieve the best contrast ratio and picture quality under ideal conditions.

Torch mode = Store mode, or are they different?

Yes they are different, the one mode you concocted up in your mind the others are specific modes created by the firmware developers for a specific reason. Your double standards are quiet amusing at best.

 

[PostmanPot]

Yes they are different, the one mode you concocted up in your mind the others are specific modes created by the firmware developers for a specific reason. Your double standards are quiet amusing at best.

That's peculiar because almost all TVs I've seen in many different showrooms are set to high-contrast, high-brightness settings with a TV default setting called "Store/Demo Mode" or similar, quite obviously to solicit the "wow factor" from consumers with maximum impact.

What are the high brightness and high contrast modes called Shop/Store Mode, created by firmware developers, used for, if the above is false? We not talking Dynamic Contrast/Vivid modes here (although similar).

 

[Mr_Bee]

Originally Posted by Mr_Bee
The statement to me seems like an attempt to belittle "Store Mode" as being something undesirable. Anyone can only speak for himself/herself and not others unless he/she has verifyable evidence, with links to support his/her statements. So we all can see where "Torch Mode" is used in the industry?

I did not see "Store Mode" used on my LG, other than as "Store Demo Mode" which plays images. LG and all other LED/LCDs that I have seen refers to their bright mode as "Vivid". The LG can even be set to switch automatically depending on lighting conditions.

By Postmanpot:Sure they can be desirable if one watches TV with high ambient lighting. Or if one thinks brightness is better (and the washed out, low detail colours that follow). It really boils down to a misunderstanding, most of which stems from judging TVs in brightly lit shops with TVs set to Torch mode, and the false premise that the brighter one is the better one.

Let's also not forget that Torch mode masks inferiorities like light bleed and white spots with LCD TVs which under dim conditions lead to low contrast ratios and inconsistent black levels.

Q: What is Torch Mode?

A: Torch Mode is a tongue-in-cheek term given to high-contrast, high-brightness settings on a television. These settings are often the factory default settings and are commonly used on display models in dealer showrooms to solicit the "wow factor" from consumers with maximum impact.
Torch mode = Store/Shop/Demo mode etc.

Vivid/Dynamic and other such settings come after in my experience, with Samsung/Sony TVs.

Says Who?, your links to info/wisdom is not clear to me - in fact I cannot find any?

Also you said it yourself "Tongue In cheek - PP" = intentional belittling statement in my mind.

 

[Mr_Bee]

Torch Mode is not rubbish at all, and it is as important to manufacturers and store owners as it is to discerning TV viewers. If you've ever set up a modern LCD/plasma, you'd have noticed "Store Mode or Home Mode" (or similar) when switching on for the first time. Torch mode AKA Store mode as led to a generation os people who prize the brightest screen above all else, especially when they're judging under bright shop lighting. Yet we know that all testing of TVs and quoted specifications and levels are done with calibration (similar settings to Movie mode), which entails lowering the back-light/brightness to achieve the best contrast ratio and picture quality under ideal conditions.

Torch mode = Store mode, or are they different?

Again, Says who? - wild statements, no substance. Please give links to your wild assertions, otherwise its boring or childish at best - and I'm talking about the entire post above not just one aspect.

 

[PostmanPot]

Says Who?, your links to info/wisdom is not clear to me - in fact I cannot find any?

Not sure why you've added text to what I said in your jumbled quoting.

For starters, the pro's and pro review sites who use calibration tools like Display Mates to calibrate TVs to achieve best picture quality and relay factual specifications & measurements about TVs which we often refer to. Dynamic contrast modes =/= PQ. The closest mode to calibration for best PQ is Movie/Cinema mode, you should try it and compare to your Vivid modes, you'll be surprised at how much details you were missing especially in darkened areas.

Plenty more reading on the subject, you just need to Google:

http://hdguru.com/how-retailers-use-lighting-to-confuse-hdtv-buyers/467/
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-GSyIwiES1so/learn/learningcenter/home/tv_signalquality.html

Also you said it yourself "Tongue In cheek - PP" = intentional belittling statement in my mind.

 

[Mr_Bee]

Honest salesmen, professional AV enthusiasts, owners of TVs, owner-friends of TVs, reports on the Internet, reviews on pro review sites, etc etc. It's also common knowledge that LCD tends to wash out colours more, especially with Demo and Dynamic modes, meaning you get less details and therefore less picture quality. May as well just get a 720p TV or limit yourself to 720p content on your 1080p TV, since you're wasting those pixels and their ability to display finer details, which are lost with Store/Dynamic modes which pump brightness & contrast.

I am asking says who (with links as proof)?

 

[PostmanPot]

Again, Says who? - wild statements, no substance. Please give links to your wild assertions, otherwise its boring or childish at best - and I'm talking about the entire post above not just one aspect.

Honest salesmen, professional AV enthusiasts, owners of TVs, owner-friends of TVs, reports on the Internet, reviews on pro review sites, etc etc.

It's also common knowledge that LCD tends to wash out colours more, especially with Demo and Dynamic modes, meaning you get less details and therefore less picture quality. May as well just get a 720p TV or limit yourself to 720p content on your 1080p TV, since you're wasting those pixels and their ability to display finer details, which are lost with Store/Dynamic modes which pump brightness & contrast.

We also try to cater for a more technical audience on MyBb, not non-discerning viewers who buy into things like brightness = PQ, and all other salesman/fanboi tricks.

 

[igeorge]

That seems good, guarantee?

5yrs!

 

[Mr_Bee]

Honest salesmen, professional AV enthusiasts, owners of TVs, owner-friends of TVs, reports on the Internet, reviews on pro review sites, etc etc.

It's also common knowledge that LCD tends to wash out colours more, especially with Demo and Dynamic modes, meaning you get less details and therefore less picture quality. May as well just get a 720p TV or limit yourself to 720p content on your 1080p TV, since you're wasting those pixels and their ability to display finer details, which are lost with Store/Dynamic modes which pump brightness & contrast.

We also try to cater for a more technical audience on MyBb, not non-discerning viewers who buy into things like brightness = PQ, and all other salesman/fanboi tricks.

I am asking again - Says who? (With links as proof).

 

[PostmanPot]

I am asking says who (with links as proof)?

Well even the movie companies set their colour standard to 6500K. This is what Movie/Cinema mode tries to achieve, without professional calibration. Movie/Cinema modes are the complete opposite of Dynamic modes:

Dynamic = maximise backlight, brightness, contrast
Movie = lower backlight, brightness; contrast (less so)

http://reviews.cnet.com/how-we-test/tv/

Choose the picture mode (typically Movie or Cinema) and color temperature preset (typically Warm or Low) that produces the most accurate initial dim-room picture, allows full access to detailed controls and comes closest to D65, or 6500K.

Disable or minimize any automatic picture adjustment controls, dynamic contrast, ambient light sensors, auto black, auto color/flesh tone, or other circuits that change the picture on the fly. Engage settings, such as local dimming on LED displays, that generally improve picture quality.

 

[Mr_Bee]

Let me spell it out:

PP Says:

Honest salesmen, professional AV enthusiasts, owners of TVs, owner-friends of TVs, reports on the Internet, reviews on pro review sites, etc etc.

What, where?

It's also common knowledge (what, where) that LCD tends to wash out colours more, especially with Demo and Dynamic modes(what, where), meaning you get less details and therefore less picture quality(what, where). May as well just get a 720p TV or limit yourself to 720p content on your 1080p TV(what, where), since you're wasting those pixels and their ability to display finer details(what, where), which are lost with Store/Dynamic modes which pump brightness & contrast(what, where).

We (Are you "we", who is "we" also try to cater for a more technical audience on MyBb(what, where), not non-discerning viewers (what is a non-discerning viewer, does that mean this forum/these forums are exclusively yours?) who buy into things like brightness = PQ, and all other salesman/fanboi tricks.(what, where)

IMHO - You're talking crap.

 

[PostmanPot]

Let me spell it out:

PP Says:

Honest salesmen, professional AV enthusiasts, owners of TVs, owner-friends of TVs, reports on the Internet, reviews on pro review sites, etc etc.

What, where?

It's also common knowledge (what, where) that LCD tends to wash out colours more, especially with Demo and Dynamic modes(what, where), meaning you get less details and therefore less picture quality(what, where). May as well just get a 720p TV or limit yourself to 720p content on your 1080p TV(what, where), since you're wasting those pixels and their ability to display finer details(what, where), which are lost with Store/Dynamic modes which pump brightness & contrast(what, where).

We (Are you "we", who is "we" also try to cater for a more technical audience on MyBb(what, where), not non-discerning viewers (what is a non-discerning viewer, does that mean this forum/these forums are exclusively yours?) who buy into things like brightness = PQ, and all other salesman/fanboi tricks.(what, where)

IMHO - You're talking crap.

Non-discerning viewers are ones who subscribe to things like dynamic mode being the best and other misinformation about TVs used to trick ignorant buyers. It all comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of TVs and what picture quality is, and this is exploited by charlatans in the trade, and and then punted by owners who've been duped.

I'm an AVphile, I have technical interests in music and TVs, which has helped me learn a lot about TVs over the past 3 years. I have provided enough links, I suggest opening them and reading them.

 

[PostmanPot]

http://reviews.cnet.com/how-we-test/tv/

Calibration

Before we perform formal evaluations of HDTVs, we first calibrate their picture settings, with the help of the Calman software, to achieve peak performance in our dark room. Though it may seem more realistic to test TVs in the default picture settings, those settings are nearly always designed for maximum brightness, saturation, and impact on the showroom floor. That might sound desirable, but we believe a more natural, realistic picture looks better--in other words, one that most accurately reproduces the incoming signal. Unfortunately, most of the picture presets on HDTVs are not designed for that kind of accurate reproduction, which is one reason why we perform calibrations. Another is to provide a level playing field for comparisons.

If you cannot understand or accept this, then you're not getting the true PQ from your sources, and you're certainly not an AVphile.

(Btw, that's Torch Mode.)

 

[PostmanPot]

http://reviews.cnet.com/how-we-test/tv/

Black-level: We comment on the depth of black a TV is capable of producing. Since deeper, "blacker" blacks lead to more-realistic pictures, higher contrast, and more "pop" and color saturation, we consider black level the most important single performance characteristic of a TV.

Uniformity: With LCDs and rear-projection sets, we use this section to subjectively address backlight uniformity across the screen, making subjective observations with full-raster test patterns and flat-color scenes, such as shots of skies, from program material. We also talk about off-angle viewing in this section, using similar material and subjective comparisons. Plasma TVs usually have effectively perfect uniformity and off-anlge viewing, so we don't typically don't include this section in plasma reviews, but we will if the plasma's uniformity is atypical to our eye.

Trust that's enough wisdom.