Lightning and ADSL

[I am Penguin]

Two 3 meter ground rods are too expensive?

May not be enough!

 

[RoloTomasi]

Yet another reason to live in Cape Town.

 

[westom]

May not be enough!

If two ground rods are not enough, then what good are protectors inside the house? Nothing. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. If earthing is not enough, then a surge approaches plug-in protectors, and then goes where? That ‘inside the house’ protector may earth a surge destructively through the adjacent appliance.

If two ground rods are insufficient, then the solution is not a grossly undersized and profitable plug-in protector. The solution is better earth ground.

What does a UPS do? Stop surges? But you said nothing can stop a surge. Which is it? Can a UPS stop a surge? Or does the UPS only do what its manufacturer spec numbers claim - not provide surge protection? View those UPS specs. It does not list any protection from each type of surge. Why? No earth ground means no effective protection.

We install surge protection so that direct lightning strikes cause no damage. So that nobody even knows the surge existed. Surges are measured in current - typically 20,000 amps. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Why? Because the 'whole house' protector is rated to connect a direct lightning strike to earth - and not be damaged. How curious. This is also the solution used 100 years ago to have direct lightning strikes – and no damage.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A plug-in protector without earthing will not solve an insufficient earthing problem. The NIST says what that plug-in protestor or UPS will do:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding
> is not done properly.

From the Lightning Safety Institute: "Guidelines For Providing Surge Protection at Commercial, Institutional, and Industrial Facilities"
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/surge.html
> Grounding Is Fundamental
> A surge protection device (SPD), also known as a transient voltage surge suppressor
> (TVSS), is designed to divert high-current surges to ground and bypass your
> equipment, thereby limiting the voltage that is impressed on the equipment.
> For this reason, it is critical that your facility have a good, low-resistance grounding
> system, with a single ground reference point to which the grounds of all building
> systems are connected. Without a proper grounding system, there is no way to
> protect against surges.

Even the warranty is a scam. That warranty is so full of exemptions as to not be honored. They are not selling protection from destructive surges. They are selling protection from surges that typically cause no damage. Products with the largest warranty are typically the worst. Same protector that others here were using when they suffered damage. Why would anyone recommend that protector?

Why did they have that protector - and damage? That protector was only as effective as its earth ground. If earthing is not sufficient, the informed homeowner upgrades earthing. That means the protector must connect even shorter to earth. Every additional meter between a protector and earth ground means even less protection.

Laughable is that UPS that only connects an appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Where is the protection? Does that relay that takes milliseconds stop a surge that occurs in microseconds? Nonsense.

'Dirty' is power from a plug-in UPS in battery backup mode. That 230 volt UPS can output two 400 volt square waves with a spike exceeding 500 volts between those square waves? This is 'cleaner' electricity? Of course not. Since electronics are so robust, that 'dirty' UPS power is acceptable and normal.

All appliances contain surge protection that even make 'dirty' UPS power irrelevant (without using internal MOVs). Protection that does what even a plug-in protector cannot accomplish. Protection that can be overwhelmed without better earthing and one 'whole house' protector.

If two ground rods are insufficient, then informed homeowners install more ground rods, or implement better earthing methods. If earthing is insufficient, then a plug-in protector will earth that surge where? Destructively through the adjacent appliance?

Ironic. One who recommends plug-in protectors also claims protection from direct lightning strikes is impossible. We who have done this stuff for decades do not suffer damage from direct lightning strikes - because we upgraded the earthing. Do not waste money on plug-in protectors. Instead put less money into upgraded earthing. A protector is only as effective as what provides surge protection - single point earth ground.

 

[fragtion]

Do not waste money on plug-in protectors. Instead put less money into upgraded earthing. A protector is only as effective as what provides surge protection - single point earth ground.

That makes perfect sense.
But it's awesome knowing how it all works, but not being able to do anything about it, because not everyone has R10'000 to spend on what should be a fairly simple process, right?
Now comes the question, for surely SOMEONE on this forum to answer: Anyone know who offers this service? I need to have my earth bypass checked, and possibly upgraded. Now assuming that the amount of labour to obtain and place two metal rods in my earth and have them properly wired up is not out of this world difficult, I shouldn't have to pay an arm and leg, right? Okay that said, who specializes in this service without ripping off the customer? I need this done, so can anyone recommend a business/individual I can contact to have this done? I stay on the West Rand, gauteng. thanks in advance

 

[rebel998]

Nothing will preveny damage with a direct hit, nothing.

But damage due to most other surges can be eliminated by taking your power and telephone line through an arrestor. http://www.clearline.co.za/ sells excellent stuff.

 

[westom]

See these links.
It come with a R20000.00 Surge warranty

How to identify a scam? First, informed consumers learned what effective protectors do from professionals and 100 years of experience. For example, from the NIST:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective
> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where
> it can do no harm.

Then view Ellies' claims:
> Absorbs up to 20 000 Amps on live, neutral and earth

That is from one I should trust? That is exactly what effective protectors do not do.

A protector absorbs the entire lightning strike? It holds that energy? Or does it make energy just disappear? Later is what those specs claim. It does not even list each type of surge. It just claims to make surge energy disappear. Scam.

Since it is plug-in device, it is too far from service entrance earthing. 20,000 amps must be earthed somewhere. Ie destructively via an adjacent appliance. Which is exactly what we engineers saw decades ago when we analyzed damage - performed an autopsy to learn why damage occurred.

The effective protector is within meters of single point earth ground. Effective protection means energy is harmlessly dissipated in earth. Does not enter the building. Once inside a building, that energy goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances. So Ellies vacuums that energy?

The effective protector connects that energy somewhere. Is based in reality and science. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No wonder Ellies does not discuss (in numbers) the various types of surges. They provide no specification numbers for surge protection. How to identify the ineffective protector? Point one: has no dedicated wire for earth ground. Point two: manufacturer does not discuss earthing. It is a classic scam.

 

[ponder]

westom, you are wasting your time

 

[AxField]

I for one am finding this discussion quite interesting. And what Westom is saying is making logical sense. Westom, you not affiliated with Webb in any way? Anyway, I'm not suggesting that this subject can be condensed into a 5 paragraph essay, but is there some links you can point us to that allows us to easily get to grips with what is the local standard? Better still, recommend some hardware for us DIY types? Scratch that, I'm assuming any work done on the incoming power lines would need a COC? But any pointers may help, as I know a few electricians that can actually do the work.

 

[I am Penguin]

If two ground rods are not enough, then what good are protectors inside the house? Nothing. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. If earthing is not enough, then a surge approaches plug-in protectors, and then goes where? That ‘inside the house’ protector may earth a surge destructively through the adjacent appliance.

If two ground rods are insufficient, then the solution is not a grossly undersized and profitable plug-in protector. The solution is better earth ground.

What does a UPS do? Stop surges? But you said nothing can stop a surge. Which is it? Can a UPS stop a surge? Or does the UPS only do what its manufacturer spec numbers claim - not provide surge protection? View those UPS specs. It does not list any protection from each type of surge. Why? No earth ground means no effective protection.

We install surge protection so that direct lightning strikes cause no damage. So that nobody even knows the surge existed. Surges are measured in current - typically 20,000 amps. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Why? Because the 'whole house' protector is rated to connect a direct lightning strike to earth - and not be damaged. How curious. This is also the solution used 100 years ago to have direct lightning strikes – and no damage.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A plug-in protector without earthing will not solve an insufficient earthing problem. The NIST says what that plug-in protestor or UPS will do:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding
> is not done properly.

From the Lightning Safety Institute: "Guidelines For Providing Surge Protection at Commercial, Institutional, and Industrial Facilities"
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/surge.html
> Grounding Is Fundamental
> A surge protection device (SPD), also known as a transient voltage surge suppressor
> (TVSS), is designed to divert high-current surges to ground and bypass your
> equipment, thereby limiting the voltage that is impressed on the equipment.
> For this reason, it is critical that your facility have a good, low-resistance grounding
> system, with a single ground reference point to which the grounds of all building
> systems are connected. Without a proper grounding system, there is no way to
> protect against surges.

Even the warranty is a scam. That warranty is so full of exemptions as to not be honored. They are not selling protection from destructive surges. They are selling protection from surges that typically cause no damage. Products with the largest warranty are typically the worst. Same protector that others here were using when they suffered damage. Why would anyone recommend that protector?

Why did they have that protector - and damage? That protector was only as effective as its earth ground. If earthing is not sufficient, the informed homeowner upgrades earthing. That means the protector must connect even shorter to earth. Every additional meter between a protector and earth ground means even less protection.

Laughable is that UPS that only connects an appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Where is the protection? Does that relay that takes milliseconds stop a surge that occurs in microseconds? Nonsense.

'Dirty' is power from a plug-in UPS in battery backup mode. That 230 volt UPS can output two 400 volt square waves with a spike exceeding 500 volts between those square waves? This is 'cleaner' electricity? Of course not. Since electronics are so robust, that 'dirty' UPS power is acceptable and normal.

All appliances contain surge protection that even make 'dirty' UPS power irrelevant (without using internal MOVs). Protection that does what even a plug-in protector cannot accomplish. Protection that can be overwhelmed without better earthing and one 'whole house' protector.

If two ground rods are insufficient, then informed homeowners install more ground rods, or implement better earthing methods. If earthing is insufficient, then a plug-in protector will earth that surge where? Destructively through the adjacent appliance?

Ironic. One who recommends plug-in protectors also claims protection from direct lightning strikes is impossible. We who have done this stuff for decades do not suffer damage from direct lightning strikes - because we upgraded the earthing. Do not waste money on plug-in protectors. Instead put less money into upgraded earthing. A protector is only as effective as what provides surge protection - single point earth ground.

Westom we all got your drift, Earthing have to be good and that is what I said, Byt the comment of two earth rod's not been enough you should see if your read my post properly I proposed more rods (minimum 3). The inside arrestors is for extra protection, the online UPS is to isolate the power source from the electronics gear to prevent power surges from Eskom. I do not care what you claim but together in combination with a decent earth system and proper installation, they do both do the job. They are not good enough if you do not have a decent earth system, I agree, so lets stop the repetitive arguments on everyones post.

Concerning your comment about the UPS I would suggest you first educate yourself about the units available and how the technology works before commenting.

What are your qualifications, are you by chanche a electronics engineer, or just a Google engineer, please clarify.

All/most electronics have protection varistors within, that is unfortunately not enough protection but it does work so if you extend it with the additional plug in protectors that is a additional bonus and that is not so expensive as you claim. Each individual can take their queries straight to Ellies which offers the conditional warranty to their product to "protect" a consumers loss due to a lightning strike. Let those interested consumers that want to, discuss it with Ellies and/or Clearline. You calling them scammers is something they can take up with the ex-spert in you. I have no affiliation, neither anything against them. They sell a better product than Telkom and even the Telkom units do help.

Now if you suggest that only two copper rods will do ALL the proctection needed/required (Like in Fragtion's case) then unfortunaltely I would differ.

Enjoy ............

How much will your service be to protect a standard dwelling, with a bigger chance than normal, of damage due to a lightning strike? Are you proposing a Faraday cage?

 

[fragtion]

wahh.. guys this is getting way out of hand. You've both raised good points. Westom knows his stuff, but he fails to believe that people read/understand what he says the first time, so finds the need to break down/repeat himself because he thinks nobody's listening to what really IS the MOST fundamentally important part of surge protection after all: how effective your ground/earthing is; so you can understand why he wants everyone to understand that - but westam: what good is a 99%-close to ideal grounding platform if you've got nothing in your home to divert the surge to that ground? You NEED these devices.
Don't convert his concern into a need to start calling him a preacher etc, though.
Yes It's true that spending 1 million rand on an indoors surge protector plug would still be useless if that surge protector's functional means of working was by diverting the surge to ground. So yes, it may seem like a scam if you buy such a device, and lose your computer because you later find out that your poor ground bypass was to blame. But that doesn't mean it's a scam (and unless you were a victim of this embarrassing mistake, I don't see why you'd be trying to get that single point across so intensively) - I'm pretty sure Ellies (and most of the other popular brands) use the correct components, and follow the most current-date circuit design specifications as well. After all, most of these things are SABS approved - and even if they weren't, wouldn't the companies be making themselves legally vulnerable to being sued if they produce products that don't perform to their described purpose?

http://www.clearline.co.za/ sells excellent stuff.

I'm actually using one of their "General Purpose Power and Telecom Protectors" on my ADSL line right now, so I'll be sure to post on this forum how it goes!

 

[I am Penguin]

wahh.. guys this is getting way out of hand. You've both raised good points. Westom knows his stuff, but he fails to believe that people read/understand what he says the first time, so finds the need to break down/repeat himself because he thinks nobody's listening to what really IS the MOST fundamentally important part of surge protection after all: how effective your ground/earthing is; so you can understand why he wants everyone to understand that - but westam: what good is a 99%-close to ideal grounding platform if you've got nothing in your home to divert the surge to that ground? You NEED these devices.
Don't convert his concern into a need to start calling him a preacher etc, though.
Yes It's true that spending 1 million rand on an indoors surge protector plug would still be useless if that surge protector's functional means of working was by diverting the surge to ground. So yes, it may seem like a scam if you buy such a device, and lose your computer because you later find out that your poor ground bypass was to blame. But that doesn't mean it's a scam (and unless you were a victim of this embarrassing mistake, I don't see why you'd be trying to get that single point across so intensively) - I'm pretty sure Ellies (and most of the other popular brands) use the correct components, and follow the most current-date circuit design specifications as well. After all, most of these things are SABS approved - and even if they weren't, wouldn't the companies be making themselves legally vulnerable to being sued if they produce products that don't perform to their described purpose?


I'm actually using one of their "General Purpose Power and Telecom Protectors" on my ADSL line right now, so I'll be sure to post on this forum how it goes!

Fixed !

 

[westom]

Westom knows his stuff, but he fails to believe that people read/understand what he says the first time, so finds the need to break down/repeat himself because he thinks nobody's listening to what really IS the MOST fundamentally important part of surge protection after all: how effective your ground/earthing is; so you can understand why he wants everyone to understand that - but westam: what good is a 99%-close to ideal grounding platform if you've got nothing in your home to divert the surge to that ground? You NEED these devices.

By 'those devices', do you mean a plug-in protectors? Its does not make an earth ground connection. That fact has been repeated in most every post. 'Devices' that make a connection to earth is one 'whole house' protector.

Why do plug-in protectors (and that UPS) not connect to earth? Again, the connection must be short ('less than 10 feet'). No sharp wire bends. Wire separated from other wires. Etc. IOW 'those devices' such as from Ellies have no earth ground. Make no protection claims in their specs. Claim to do what no protector can - magically absorb current.

In every post, ineffective protectors (ie from Ellies) have been identified with reasons why. Posted using facts, concepts, numbers, professional citations, and even the experience from 100 years ago. Yes, I am repeating because any recommendation for a plug-in protector means posted facts and numbers were ignored. Ellies' products are perfect examples of a scam. One even again cited "I'm pretty sure Ellies use the correct components ..." Sorry. I am an engineer who has seen too many protector scams promoted 'eyes that glaze over'. If they used proper components, then they say so with numbers. Otherwise its a sure bet they did not. Especially when profit margins on ineffective protectors are so massive.

See that protector selling for 50 Rn in a grocery store? Same protector circuit is also inside protectors selling for 7000 Rn. What are they selling? Protection or a profitable scam?

See those Ellies protectors? No dedicated wire to earth ground. Some may have a safety ground. Safety ground does not provide earthing for 'numerous electrical reasons posted previously and repeatedly. Earth ground means a short connection to earth. Ellies' protectors cannot harmlessly earth a surge - and do not even claim to. Yes repeated because Ellies' missing technical spec numbers make it obvious. Ellies' protectors can earth a surge destructively via a nearby DSL router or via any other appliance elsewhere on the same circuit. Why is that effective protection?

SABS says a device will not kill you: human safety. Transistor safety is not addressed. "The SABS has focused on public safety and protection of the consumer ..." Food safety. Electrical safety. Transportation safety. Environmental safety. Human safety.

Farady cage - in simple terms what an effective protection system accomplishes. An incoming surge connected to earth does not enter the building. But that means a connection to earth must be superior - provides both equipotential and conductivity. IOW, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. In many cases, two ground rods can be more than sufficient. In some cases, a massive earth ground is installed for even less improvement. For better protection, earthing is upgraded.

The inside arrestors is for extra protection, the online UPS is to isolate the power source from the electronics gear to prevent power surges from Eskom. ...
All/most electronics have protection varistors within, that is unfortunately not enough protection but it does work so if you extend it with the additional plug in protectors that is a additional bonus and that is not so expensive as you claim.

Appliances contain internal protection without varistors. Worse, that varistor (MOV) is too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. Provides no effective protection. Same ineffective protection provided by a plug-in protector. Please learn some basic electrical concepts rather that reiterating popular myths. How does that varistor inside the electronics magically absorb surges? It does not and does not claim to.

That UPS *isolator* is another myth. A destructive surge can appear on one side or both side of the battery (assuming you believe a myth that says the battery absorbs surges). Surge current flows right past that battery with the battery not seeing (conducting) that current. Surge flows out a UPS and into the appliance when that is the (destructive) path to earth. Battery is not in that path and does not absorb energy. Please learn simple electrical principles such as longitudinal and normal mode. Then know the UPS battery does nothing.

Any isolating by a UPS is in better circuits routinely found in computers. Any *isolating* a UPS might accomplish is already inside computers - and numerous other electronics.

A UPS that *isolates* means it stop, blocks, arrests, suppresses, or absorbs surge energy. How many professionals must be requoted? No protector (ie that UPS) stops surges. Any UPS that *isolated* means surge voltage increases as necessary to blow through that UPS. Or a surge simply bypasses the UPS on a safety ground wire. Two of so many reasons why that UPS does not provide (and does not claim to provide) surge protection. Concepts that were posted in numerous previous posts.

Why does that UPS not provide surge protection? Reposted again, from the NIST:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective
> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, ...
Somehow that *isolating* UPS wil suprress or arrest a surge? Don't you get it? UPS manufacturer loves when you promote the scam. They do not provide any spec numbers for that protection. And you claim it exists anyway.

1) That UPS does not isolate. 2) May simply conduct a surge around the UPS. 3) If it *isolates*, well, how many professional citations, etc did you ignore to again claim protection by blocking, absorbing, arresting, or making energy just disappear?

How to identify ineffective protection from a UPS? First, it does not have that dedicated wire for a 'less than 3 meter' to single point earth ground. Second, manufacturer will not even discuss earthing. Again, reposting.

How much protection will 'ínside the house' protectors provide? An IEEE Standard (Green Book) quantifies a 'whole house' protector at 99.5% (plus) protection. How much protection is provided by the plug-in protector? One would spend tens or 100 times more money for a protector that might provide an additional 0.2%? Yes it will provide additional protection. How close to zero is somehow effective - especially that those prices?

Another professional. Dr Martzloff in his 1994 IEEE paper defined what an 'ínside the house' (point of connection) protector can do. His very first conclusion:
> Conclusion:
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable
> difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because,
> surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

Yes, a protector too close to the appliance can even contribute to appliance damage. Could be the DSL modem. Could be a computer connected elsewhere on the same AC electric circuit - maybe even in the next room. But surge energy inside the building will hunt for earth. A plug-in protector simply gives a surge more paths to find earth destructively via any nearby appliance - including those not connected to the protector.

Why did others have protectors and still suffer damage? Protection is defined by the quality of earth ground. Not by money spent on that protector. Neither Ellies nor that *isolating* UPS even claim effective protection. In my every post are the reasons why - including well proven science backed up by 100+ years of experience.

 

[I am Penguin]

Talks a lot and do not listen......e.

FFS yOU are worse than PeterCH, fAMILY?

Again, please advise the cost of your "services" and tell us the cost to protect a single dwelling?