lightning protector for telephone lines

[westom]

It won't stop a direct hit, but nothing really will.

Those fuses would blow on surges typically too tiny to overwhelm superior protection already inside electronics. That circuit does not protect from transients that cause damage - for a long list of reasons.

First, expensive protectors are often inferior protection. Best protection costs less money. And has one feature that only effective protectors have: a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to single point earth ground. Clearly that box has no such required feature.

Second, protection from direct lightning strikes is routine. But that means using concepts that were standard over 100 years ago. Somehow a fuse in that box will stop what three kilometers cannot? Reality: a potentially destructive surge keeps conducting through those fuses even after blowing. Fuse only stops conducting current when a surge ends. Read (provide) fuse voltage numbers if in doubt. Who thinks a millimeter gap would stop what three kilometers of sky could not?

Third, fast blow fuses take milliseconds or longer. Surges are done in microseconds. 300 consecutive surges would pass through those fuses before a fuse even thought about tripping. Meanwhile, when that current is incoming to a fuse, it is also and simultaneously outgoing into attached appliance. A science concept even taught in primary school science. Protection already in ADSL modems protected that modem while a fuse was thinking about tripping.

Protection is always answered by this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Protectors that cannot answer that question are typically inferior to protection already inside electronics.

Discussed is 3 meters, 3 kilometers, millimeters, micro and milliseconds, over 100 years, hundreds of thousands of joules, and voltage specs. As well as how electricity really works: it is everywhere in that path at the same time. If incoming to that protector, it is also outgoing simultaneously. Blocking surges is a fool's errand. Effective protection is always - as in always - defined by where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

If a protector does not protect from direct lightning strikes, then it is ineffective (and probably expensive) protection. Best protection from lightning typically costs tens or 100 times less money plug-in solutions. But that means learning facts tempered by numbers and science.

Another fact. ADSL line is often an outgoing surge path. Most surges are incoming on AC main. Remember this is electricity. So a surge, at the same time, is outgoing maybe via an ADSL line. Long later, a weakest point in that path fails. Often the ADSL connection. Only wild speculation then assumes an ADSL wire was the incoming path.

If every incoming wire is not protected where it enters a building, then no effective protection exist. That solution also means direct lightning strikes do not even damage a protector. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. That has not changed in over 100 years. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? Where is the low impedance connection to earth. That circuit violates most every principle for effective protection.

 

[mastercylinder]

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? Where is the low impedance connection to earth. That circuit violates most every principle for effective protection.

If it were only two fuses, it probably would not work, yes. Those fuses exist to interrupt the circuit when smaller surges pass through and prevent the solid state protection from blowing.

The gas discharge tube is rated at 10kA. The protection device is rated at 800A, and fails short circuit. If you sustain these currents through these components they will fail and be useless for protection. You don't want to leave a short circuit across your phone line, so you fuse it.

The low impedance connection to earth exists in that circuit by the way. It goes to the center pin of the protection device.

The circuit works in practice, and I have seen at times only one fuse blowing. Where does the current go? Why to earth of course, which is why earth is connected in circuit. Duh.

Your wall of text is not very informed.

 

[westom]

Your wall of text is not very informed.

Sufficient electrical knowledge obviously does not exist. First indication is multiple replies that ignore all spec numbers. Only wild speculation ignores specification numbers. Start with impedance. Is that connection 'less than 3 meters"? No. Obviously not. You have no idea what impedance is. Your circuit does not have required low impedance connections.

How does a fuse disconnect a surge when it does not blow until after 300 surges? It doesn't. Now learn what blows that fuse - ie follow through current. A current that does not exist if well proven 'whole house' protection had been installed. You did not address the problem. And did not learn of well proven solutions. Blown fuses are only reporting that effective protection still does not exist.

A surge enters your circuit. Gas discharge connects it from one incoming wire to all other wires. Now that surge is on *more* wires incoming to attached appliances. It makes damage easier. The obvious was ignored. Surge is incoming because a best connection to earth is via electronics. Your circuit gives that a surge even more potentially destructive paths through electronics. Please learn how surges do damage (see reference to metallic current).

More facts must be learned. Best protection at the appliance is always inside that appliance. Electronics will routinely convert most surges into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors. Best protection converts and consumes those near zero surges into well regulated and safe electricity. Afterwards, your fuse blows. A blowing fuse doesn't say that circuit did protection. That fuse blew long after a surge was incoming to or outgoing from attached appliances. Facts and numbers were ignored to only assume protection.

Follow through current also explains why fuses would blow long after a surge existed. Another path is incoming on AC mains and outgoing from an ADSL port. Either way, that surge was still incoming to electronics. You ignored spec numbers and fundamental concepts such as low impedance, follow through currents, and the question that defines all protection: where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

You only assumed ADSL damage meant phone line was the incoming path. Usually it is not. Another example of what must be known before a solution can exist. Best protection is already inside electronics. If your circuit was effective, then it is already inside all electronics. It is not for one simple reason. Not effective.

Start by learning what a surge current really is. Surge is not a metallic mode current as you have only assumed. Just another reason why gas discharge tubes may give a surge more incoming and potentially destructive paths.

Protection is always about no surge inside a building. Always as in the only solution implemented in every building that cannot have damage. Your circuit might be supplemental protection if AFTER effective solutions are implemented. If that 'whole house' solution does not already exist, then read above paragraphs. Your circuit gives a surge MORE potentially destructive paths through attached electronics.

Impedance also says why protection increases when separation increases between appliance and protector. Learn what impedance is. Your circuit obviously has no low impedance connection to earth. Again, numbers: less than 3 meters.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? You cannot say. So you pretend it does not matter. Effective protection always says where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Well proven protection connects low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) But that means learning spec numbers, a type of current that is called a surge, the most common incoming path that causes ADSL damage, and what low impedance is. Everything defined by numbers,

10 Kamp gas discharge tube says it can connect up to 10 Kamp into attached appliances via more (other) wires. What that tube might do, that is useful, is already inside electronics.

 

[mastercylinder]

Sufficient electrical knowledge obviously does not exist. First indication is multiple replies that ignore all spec numbers. Only wild speculation ignores specification numbers. Start with impedance. Is that connection 'less than 3 meters"? No. Obviously not. You have no idea what impedance is. Your circuit does not have required low impedance connections.

How does a fuse disconnect a surge when it does not blow until after 300 surges? It doesn't. Now learn what blows that fuse - ie follow through current. A current that does not exist if well proven 'whole house' protection had been installed. You did not address the problem. And did not learn of well proven solutions. Blown fuses are only reporting that effective protection still does not exist.

A surge enters your circuit. Gas discharge connects it from one incoming wire to all other wires. Now that surge is on *more* wires incoming to attached appliances. It makes damage easier. The obvious was ignored. Surge is incoming because a best connection to earth is via electronics. Your circuit gives that a surge even more potentially destructive paths through electronics. Please learn how surges do damage (see reference to metallic current).

More facts must be learned. Best protection at the appliance is always inside that appliance. Electronics will routinely convert most surges into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors. Best protection converts and consumes those near zero surges into well regulated and safe electricity. Afterwards, your fuse blows. A blowing fuse doesn't say that circuit did protection. That fuse blew long after a surge was incoming to or outgoing from attached appliances. Facts and numbers were ignored to only assume protection.

Follow through current also explains why fuses would blow long after a surge existed. Another path is incoming on AC mains and outgoing from an ADSL port. Either way, that surge was still incoming to electronics. You ignored spec numbers and fundamental concepts such as low impedance, follow through currents, and the question that defines all protection: where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate?

You only assumed ADSL damage meant phone line was the incoming path. Usually it is not. Another example of what must be known before a solution can exist. Best protection is already inside electronics. If your circuit was effective, then it is already inside all electronics. It is not for one simple reason. Not effective.

Start by learning what a surge current really is. Surge is not a metallic mode current as you have only assumed. Just another reason why gas discharge tubes may give a surge more incoming and potentially destructive paths.

Protection is always about no surge inside a building. Always as in the only solution implemented in every building that cannot have damage. Your circuit might be supplemental protection if AFTER effective solutions are implemented. If that 'whole house' solution does not already exist, then read above paragraphs. Your circuit gives a surge MORE potentially destructive paths through attached electronics.

Impedance also says why protection increases when separation increases between appliance and protector. Learn what impedance is. Your circuit obviously has no low impedance connection to earth. Again, numbers: less than 3 meters.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? You cannot say. So you pretend it does not matter. Effective protection always says where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Well proven protection connects low impedance (ie hardwire has no sharp bends) But that means learning spec numbers, a type of current that is called a surge, the most common incoming path that causes ADSL damage, and what low impedance is. Everything defined by numbers,

10 Kamp gas discharge tube says it can connect up to 10 Kamp into attached appliances via more (other) wires. What that tube might do, that is useful, is already inside electronics.

Wow, you are really confused. I understand impedance and high frequency earthing far better than you do. I happen to be formally educated in this field.

Some of your misconceptions:
1. I did not claim the circuit protects from a direct hit. As you noted, I stated "nothing can".
Furthermore, this means I don't have to deal with your "1000s of joules", because they aren't there. If they were there, I said the case is hopeless? Reading comprehension is an important part of understanding what people are saying. I am saying that the circuit has a good response time and a good capability to dissipate moderate transients and surges.

2. "Start by learning what a surge current really is. Surge is not a metallic mode current as you have only assumed. Just another reason why gas discharge tubes may give a surge more incoming and potentially destructive paths."
I know exactly what a surge current is, having dealt with a system designed to create very short pulses (read high frequency content, if you're as knowledgeable as you claim to be). It was capable of up to 2MV, I believe. Pretty scary machine. You're upset because I'm using fuses - the fuses are not to disconnect the device during a surge, they're to disconnect the device in the event of component failure caused by a surge or repeated surge). Is that really so hard to understand? They protect the component if you get anything more than a transient.

3. You actually ignore the practical instances where this system has worked, and this design has been used in commercial application. This implies that there exist surges that this is a practical and useful defense against.

4. No, I don't assume ADSL damage is from the phone lines always, but unlike you I don't randomly claim it is not. If the device was not effective in the way I state it is, then it follows I would be replacing modems a lot more often than I do. (I have two working modems that we replaced in a box somewhere, because the Asus DSL-N11 kept overheating, and the other did not support the port-forwarding I needed).

I'm sorry, but this is as far as I go with you. You're talking nonsense, that that is quite plain to see. You know only enough to be dangerous.

Are you really trying to sell something? I doubt you can provide adequate low impedance earthing at high frequency (Plain language for your level of understanding; the waveform of the lightning strike has sharp edges, which means a frequency analysis includes lots of high frequencies) that is sufficient for a direct hit on a building.

In short, you're not really as knowledgeable as you pretend, and you're quite confused as to the purpose of the circuit I supplied, seeming to think it is designed to stop a direct hit. This is where I leave it with you. Cheers.

 

[westom]

Some of your misconceptions:
1. I did not claim the circuit protects from a direct hit. As you noted, I stated "nothing can".

Then everything after that suggests bad fiction. Protection from direct lightning strikes is routine. And typically costs tens of times less money.

Numbers were provided that defines protection from destructive surges - including direct lightning strikes. Effective and less expensive protection means no damage even from direct lightning strikes. Since that was well understood and implemented over 100 years ago. And yes, protection from direct lightning strikes is that routine, that easy, and too often unknown.

You do not know what a surge current is. Otherwise you would have defined it to prove your claim. You didn't because you do not even know what a metallic current is.

A follow through current has been confused with a surge. If a fuse blew, it was clearly not due to a surge. Again, fuses take milliseconds plus to trip. Surge is done in microseconds. But you still insist those fuses reported a surge was averted. Again, because you do not know what a surge current is. And did not install a "proven by over 100 years of science and experience" solution.

Why sell something that was found ineffective even 100 years ago? Why assume that cheap circuit, intentionally not inside appliances with more robust protection, will somehow work?

Reasons for *knowing* that it works demonstrates lack of basic electrical knowledge. Such as how surge currents flow, what does low impedance, and where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Somehow a microseconds transient current blew a fuse that takes tens of milliseconds to trip. Those numbers are damning.

Surges that are hundreds or a thousand joules are already made irrelevant by protection inside appliances. Protection that is superior to your fuse and GDT circuit. That protection already exists. Concern is for transients that can overwhelm protection already inside appliances - including ADSL modems. That well proven solution means no surge is even inside a structure. Costs little. And even protects from direct lightning strikes. Apparently your ADSL facility does not have knowledgeable engineers.

Where is a best location for your circuit? Where 'whole house' protection is located. Since a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Your circuit located adjacent to electronics has no earth ground - is ineffective. Even fuses do not report a surge was blocked. At best, fuses report better protection inside ADSL equipment successfully protected that equipment.

A professional who does this stuff will be quoted in a next reply.

 

[westom]

Another professional describes protection from surges - including direct lightning strikes:

Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power company's lines knocking *them* out, ...

Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct strike damage is *myth*. ...

The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than just a low ohm DC path.

 

[mastercylinder]

Then everything after that suggests bad fiction. Protection from direct lightning strikes is routine. And typically costs tens of times less money.

Numbers were provided that defines protection from destructive surges - including direct lightning strikes. Effective and less expensive protection means no damage even from direct lightning strikes. Since that was well understood and implemented over 100 years ago. And yes, protection from direct lightning strikes is that routine, that easy, and too often unknown.

You do not know what a surge current is. Otherwise you would have defined it to prove your claim. You didn't because you do not even know what a metallic current is.

A follow through current has been confused with a surge. If a fuse blew, it was clearly not due to a surge. Again, fuses take milliseconds plus to trip. Surge is done in microseconds. But you still insist those fuses reported a surge was averted. Again, because you do not know what a surge current is. And did not install a "proven by over 100 years of science and experience" solution.

Why sell something that was found ineffective even 100 years ago? Why assume that cheap circuit, intentionally not inside appliances with more robust protection, will somehow work?

Reasons for *knowing* that it works demonstrates lack of basic electrical knowledge. Such as how surge currents flow, what does low impedance, and where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Somehow a microseconds transient current blew a fuse that takes tens of milliseconds to trip. Those numbers are damning.

Surges that are hundreds or a thousand joules are already made irrelevant by protection inside appliances. Protection that is superior to your fuse and GDT circuit. That protection already exists. Concern is for transients that can overwhelm protection already inside appliances - including ADSL modems. That well proven solution means no surge is even inside a structure. Costs little. And even protects from direct lightning strikes. Apparently your ADSL facility does not have knowledgeable engineers.

Where is a best location for your circuit? Where 'whole house' protection is located. Since a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Your circuit located adjacent to electronics has no earth ground - is ineffective. Even fuses do not report a surge was blocked. At best, fuses report better protection inside ADSL equipment successfully protected that equipment.

A professional who does this stuff will be quoted in a next reply.

For the last time (as in the datasheet specified and observed) failure mode of the protection device is a short circuit. As in ALL pins short together. If you do not fuse the box, you will short all your phone lines to ground, which is not the end of the world, but it can cause issues.

The fuses blow when the device enters failure mode, which means you must replace it. They are not there for the protection of the modem, unless you get a transient that isn't as nasty. And yes, I do understand that high frequencies can jump large gaps - larger than the fuse holder's isolation with ease. You are so obsessed with fuses. Wow.

Broadcast equipment is somewhat different, and proper grounding in terms of properly laid earth mats and so forth is not something your average consumer can rely on. Beyond that your repeated "100 years quote" makes you sound like you're selling something, which disinclines me to listen to you. On the level of "100 years ago they knew bicarb made you less acid and stopped cancer".

Now it may be true that if your earthing is adequate, you can protect a building against a near strike, and with adequate lightning conductors you can avoid a direct strike, but a direct hit tends to melt things and even damage walls. Like you're so fond of pointing out, there is a lot of energy in lightning, and practically whatever dicey rig you have in your incoming building supply isn't going to do all that much.

It is sufficient in most cases to protect the device with suppression (including the mains, yes). More often than not, you would want to put the protection as far from the device as possible. You just assume I have it on top of my modem, because, well, you just assume a hell of a lot. And that's your basic problem, you really aren't paying attention to a word I say, so really, this is where for my own sanity, I'm getting off the train.

Cheers and thanks for playing. I think?

 

[westom]

For the last time (as in the datasheet specified and observed) failure mode of the protection device is a short circuit. As in ALL pins short together. If you do not fuse the box, you will short all your phone lines to ground, which is not the end of the world, but it can cause issues.

Normal operation for a GDT is all pins shorted together. Again, you are still thinking in terms of metallic mode currents. All pins shorted together means a surge is incoming into all wires connected to an ADSL modem. It makes damage easier.

Failure mode for a GDT is all pins open; not shorted. Its gas so contaminated as to not operate properly. Apparently that datasheet is not for a GDT. Maybe a datasheet for an avalanche diode. However it does not change the bottom line. When a protector is too close to electronics and too far from earth ground, then a surge causes all pins to (in essence) short together. That means a surge incoming on one wire is now outgoing into the modem on all wires. Where is the protection? Fortunately electronics have robust intenal protection.

Same concepts for protecting ADSL also apply to broadcasting equipment (which also uses low voltage signaling). Also applies to rocket launch pads, munitions dumps, ships, telco switching centers, nuclear hardened communication facilities, mobile phone towers, semiconductor fabs, and electronics atop the Empire State Building. Again, learn principles that define a surge current. Lightning creates a similar current created by tree rodents, grid switching, stray cars, linemen errors. In every case, damage is due to an incoming current hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

Long understood is how to protect robust appliances from rare anomalies. That current must connect low impedance (ie hardwire must not be inside metallic conduit) to single point earth ground. Not any ground. All four words have electrical significance. Protection is defined by where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Then all potentially destructive surges (including direct lightning strikes) are made irrelevant.

A best solution was pioneered in munitions dumps. Same solution is routinely used in structures to have best protection. Most efforts focus on THE most critical component in every protection system. That is not a protector circuit (ie GDTs, avalanche diodes, spark gaps, varistors, thyristors, etc). Most attention focuses on THE item that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Single point earth ground. Ufer grounds are a famous and effective solution so that robust protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That circuit violates the principle. In part, because a surge current is still misunderstood. A surge is not an 'assumed' metallic mode current.

Protection has always been about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Protector part (ie GDT) is only a connecting device to what does protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[mastercylinder]

Normal operation for a GDT is all pins shorted together. Again, you are still thinking in terms of metallic mode currents. All pins shorted together means a surge is incoming into all wires connected to an ADSL modem. It makes damage easier.

Failure mode for a GDT is all pins open; not shorted. Its gas so contaminated as to not operate properly. Apparently that datasheet is not for a GDT. Maybe a datasheet for an avalanche diode. However it does not change the bottom line. When a protector is too close to electronics and too far from earth ground, then a surge causes all pins to (in essence) short together. That means a surge incoming on one wire is now outgoing into the modem on all wires. Where is the protection? Fortunately electronics have robust intenal protection.

Same concepts for protecting ADSL also apply to broadcasting equipment (which also uses low voltage signaling). Also applies to rocket launch pads, munitions dumps, ships, telco switching centers, nuclear hardened communication facilities, mobile phone towers, semiconductor fabs, and electronics atop the Empire State Building. Again, learn principles that define a surge current. Lightning creates a similar current created by tree rodents, grid switching, stray cars, linemen errors. In every case, damage is due to an incoming current hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

Long understood is how to protect robust appliances from rare anomalies. That current must connect low impedance (ie hardwire must not be inside metallic conduit) to single point earth ground. Not any ground. All four words have electrical significance. Protection is defined by where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Then all potentially destructive surges (including direct lightning strikes) are made irrelevant.

A best solution was pioneered in munitions dumps. Same solution is routinely used in structures to have best protection. Most efforts focus on THE most critical component in every protection system. That is not a protector circuit (ie GDTs, avalanche diodes, spark gaps, varistors, thyristors, etc). Most attention focuses on THE item that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Single point earth ground. Ufer grounds are a famous and effective solution so that robust protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That circuit violates the principle. In part, because a surge current is still misunderstood. A surge is not an 'assumed' metallic mode current.

Protection has always been about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Protector part (ie GDT) is only a connecting device to what does protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Again, you're confused. I am not only using a GDT

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/e...or_balanced_modified_to_220_datasheet.pdf.pdf

Did they not teach you reading comprehension?

 

[mastercylinder]

Normal operation for a GDT is all pins shorted together. Again, you are still thinking in terms of metallic mode currents. All pins shorted together means a surge is incoming into all wires connected to an ADSL modem. It makes damage easier.

Failure mode for a GDT is all pins open; not shorted. Its gas so contaminated as to not operate properly. Apparently that datasheet is not for a GDT. Maybe a datasheet for an avalanche diode. However it does not change the bottom line. When a protector is too close to electronics and too far from earth ground, then a surge causes all pins to (in essence) short together. That means a surge incoming on one wire is now outgoing into the modem on all wires. Where is the protection? Fortunately electronics have robust intenal protection.

Same concepts for protecting ADSL also apply to broadcasting equipment (which also uses low voltage signaling). Also applies to rocket launch pads, munitions dumps, ships, telco switching centers, nuclear hardened communication facilities, mobile phone towers, semiconductor fabs, and electronics atop the Empire State Building. Again, learn principles that define a surge current. Lightning creates a similar current created by tree rodents, grid switching, stray cars, linemen errors. In every case, damage is due to an incoming current hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

Long understood is how to protect robust appliances from rare anomalies. That current must connect low impedance (ie hardwire must not be inside metallic conduit) to single point earth ground. Not any ground. All four words have electrical significance. Protection is defined by where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Then all potentially destructive surges (including direct lightning strikes) are made irrelevant.

A best solution was pioneered in munitions dumps. Same solution is routinely used in structures to have best protection. Most efforts focus on THE most critical component in every protection system. That is not a protector circuit (ie GDTs, avalanche diodes, spark gaps, varistors, thyristors, etc). Most attention focuses on THE item that harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Single point earth ground. Ufer grounds are a famous and effective solution so that robust protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That circuit violates the principle. In part, because a surge current is still misunderstood. A surge is not an 'assumed' metallic mode current.

Protection has always been about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Protector part (ie GDT) is only a connecting device to what does protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

You really need to pay some attention to what other people do and say. You're an idiot, quite frankly. Yes, a GDT is short circuit to high frequency current. A SCR protector like I am using is short circuit to DC when it is failed (i.e. damaged by over current)! And you claim I don't understand these things?

You're completely oblivious. What part of "failure mode" don't you understand?

 

[westom]

Did they not teach you reading comprehension?

Originally said you were using GDTs. Your did not say your were also using thyristors. Thyristors first fail shorted. On larger (destructive) surges, a thyristor then fails open. But that does not change above engineering facts.

Please act like a responsible adult; not an emotional child. Learn how surge currents work. Learn why your circuit would not provide effective protection. And why that circuit is already inside all electronics if effective. BTW, Sidactor or equivalent is routinely found in many if not most phone line appliances. Anything your circuit might do is already done better inside appliances. But again, only repeating what is constantly ignored. Comprehension is difficult when being emotional and insulting.

GDT acting with all pins shorted together or thyristor failing only shorted (on a tiny surge) "means a surge is incoming into all wires connected to an ADSL modem. It makes damage easier." Quoted is what you keep ignoring. How many times are these concepts explained before you finally say, "Oh I finally get it".

Again, you are still thinking in terms of metallic mode currents. Learn basic electrical concepts. Stop rationalizing a metallic mode current.

Electronics already contain circuits that make irrelevant what an adjacent thyristor or GDT might do. That and other features means best protection at an ADSL modem already exists. Your concern is a transient that can overwhelm existing appliance protection. Which means that current also and easily compromises your lesser circuit. Worse, your circuit can even make damage easier if too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. As in always. Please learn from the mistakes in your circuit.

Being too attached to your design means you refuse to learn from your mistakes and the relevant electrical concepts. Your circuit is predicated on a metallic mode current. That is not a destructive surge. A protector is only as effective as an item that harmlessly absorbs energy (ie hundreds of thousands of joules). That means a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection. If thyristor or GDT fail or operate (short), then surge damage is easier. Your circuit simply gives that surge more incoming and potentially destructive paths into attached electronics.

If properly earthed, that thyristor or GDT would only make incoming surge damage easier. Incoming on AC mains and destructively outgoing via an ADSL port also means an ineffective circuit. It is a mistake to assume destructive surges are metallic mode currents. Effective protection means hundreds of thousands of joules (a surge powerful enough to overwhelm protection inside all appliances) must dissipate harmlessly outside. If an adjacent circuit was so effective, then it is already inside electronics. Just some reasons why that thyristor and GDT are ineffective or even make damage easier.

Meanwhile, another relevant concept is still ignored: follow through current. And a difference between tens of milliseconds and microseconds.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector circuit is only as effective as its earth ground. Please learn electrical concepts well understood for over 100 years.

 

[mastercylinder]

Originally said you were using GDTs. Your did not say your were also using thyristors. Thyristors first fail shorted. On larger (destructive) surges, a thyristor then fails open. But that does not change above engineering facts.

Please act like a responsible adult; not an emotional child. Learn how surge currents work. Learn why your circuit would not provide effective protection. And why that circuit is already inside all electronics if effective. BTW, Sidactor or equivalent is routinely found in many if not most phone line appliances. Anything your circuit might do is already done better inside appliances. But again, only repeating what is constantly ignored. Comprehension is difficult when being emotional and insulting.

GDT acting with all pins shorted together or thyristor failing only shorted (on a tiny surge) "means a surge is incoming into all wires connected to an ADSL modem. It makes damage easier." Quoted is what you keep ignoring. How many times are these concepts explained before you finally say, "Oh I finally get it".

Again, you are still thinking in terms of metallic mode currents. Learn basic electrical concepts. Stop rationalizing a metallic mode current.

Electronics already contain circuits that make irrelevant what an adjacent thyristor or GDT might do. That and other features means best protection at an ADSL modem already exists. Your concern is a transient that can overwhelm existing appliance protection. Which means that current also and easily compromises your lesser circuit. Worse, your circuit can even make damage easier if too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. As in always. Please learn from the mistakes in your circuit.

Being too attached to your design means you refuse to learn from your mistakes and the relevant electrical concepts. Your circuit is predicated on a metallic mode current. That is not a destructive surge. A protector is only as effective as an item that harmlessly absorbs energy (ie hundreds of thousands of joules). That means a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection. If thyristor or GDT fail or operate (short), then surge damage is easier. Your circuit simply gives that surge more incoming and potentially destructive paths into attached electronics.

If properly earthed, that thyristor or GDT would only make incoming surge damage easier. Incoming on AC mains and destructively outgoing via an ADSL port also means an ineffective circuit. It is a mistake to assume destructive surges are metallic mode currents. Effective protection means hundreds of thousands of joules (a surge powerful enough to overwhelm protection inside all appliances) must dissipate harmlessly outside. If an adjacent circuit was so effective, then it is already inside electronics. Just some reasons why that thyristor and GDT are ineffective or even make damage easier.

Meanwhile, another relevant concept is still ignored: follow through current. And a difference between tens of milliseconds and microseconds.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector circuit is only as effective as its earth ground. Please learn electrical concepts well understood for over 100 years.

Excuse me? I said many times what I was using. I posted a circuit diagram for goodness sake. The original post explains it. I have been repeating the same thing over and over again, but you are to obsessed with your earthing solution to pay any attention. To busy being condescending about metallic currents. Too busy trying to claim I didn't know what I was doing. Too busy misunderstanding the reasons for the fuses.

Go back and actually read all my post then come back and apologize to me, then I might engage with the rest of what you say. Until then, I'm not interested, and quite frankly I think I have shown I understand better than you do.

 

[dunkyd]

Xmas can't come soon enough......

 

[mastercylinder]

Originally said you were using GDTs. Your did not say your were also using thyristors. Thyristors first fail shorted. On larger (destructive) surges, a thyristor then fails open. But that does not change above engineering facts.

Please act like a responsible adult; not an emotional child. Learn how surge currents work. Learn why your circuit would not provide effective protection. And why that circuit is already inside all electronics if effective. BTW, Sidactor or equivalent is routinely found in many if not most phone line appliances. Anything your circuit might do is already done better inside appliances. But again, only repeating what is constantly ignored. Comprehension is difficult when being emotional and insulting.

GDT acting with all pins shorted together or thyristor failing only shorted (on a tiny surge) "means a surge is incoming into all wires connected to an ADSL modem. It makes damage easier." Quoted is what you keep ignoring. How many times are these concepts explained before you finally say, "Oh I finally get it".

Again, you are still thinking in terms of metallic mode currents. Learn basic electrical concepts. Stop rationalizing a metallic mode current.

Electronics already contain circuits that make irrelevant what an adjacent thyristor or GDT might do. That and other features means best protection at an ADSL modem already exists. Your concern is a transient that can overwhelm existing appliance protection. Which means that current also and easily compromises your lesser circuit. Worse, your circuit can even make damage easier if too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. As in always. Please learn from the mistakes in your circuit.

Being too attached to your design means you refuse to learn from your mistakes and the relevant electrical concepts. Your circuit is predicated on a metallic mode current. That is not a destructive surge. A protector is only as effective as an item that harmlessly absorbs energy (ie hundreds of thousands of joules). That means a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection. If thyristor or GDT fail or operate (short), then surge damage is easier. Your circuit simply gives that surge more incoming and potentially destructive paths into attached electronics.

If properly earthed, that thyristor or GDT would only make incoming surge damage easier. Incoming on AC mains and destructively outgoing via an ADSL port also means an ineffective circuit. It is a mistake to assume destructive surges are metallic mode currents. Effective protection means hundreds of thousands of joules (a surge powerful enough to overwhelm protection inside all appliances) must dissipate harmlessly outside. If an adjacent circuit was so effective, then it is already inside electronics. Just some reasons why that thyristor and GDT are ineffective or even make damage easier.

Meanwhile, another relevant concept is still ignored: follow through current. And a difference between tens of milliseconds and microseconds.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. A protector circuit is only as effective as its earth ground. Please learn electrical concepts well understood for over 100 years.

And you know what, I haven't called you an idiot because of your technical jargon. I called you an idiot because it has taken this long for you to realise why the fuses are in circuit. It's not that you're incapable of understanding, it's that you appear to be incapable of reading what I write.

 

[westom]

Your every reply called me an idiot or something equivalent because you:
a) have no idea what a metallic mode current is and why it is irrelevant
b) have no idea where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate and have no idea why that is relevant
c) have no idea what impedance is and why a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection is essential
d) never learned the significance of single point earth ground
e) never knew damage is often on an outgoing part; foolishly assumed damage on an ADSL port means that was an incoming path
f) forgot that electricity must have both an incoming and outgoing path to exist or do damage
g) ignored the most common source of surge damage - AC mains
h) never learned fuses, that take tens of milliseconds to blow, do nothing for surges that are done in microseconds
i) never learned a fuse continues conducting even after it blows when voltage (ie as found in surges) is excessive
j) have no idea what a follow through current is
k) did not know a thyristor that first fails shorted then fails open
l) did not know an adjacent thyristor or GDT that shorts pins together then gives a surge more potentially destructive paths into attach appliances
m) did not know more robust protection is already inside appliances
n) did not know a protector circuit without a low impedance connection to earth can even make damage easier to other nearby appliances
o) did not know of more robust protection already inside electronics
p) did not know protection from direct lightning strikes is routine
q) did not know how effective surge protection (even from direct lightning strikes) was done for more than 100 years
r) have no idea what single point earth ground is, why it is relevant, or ask to learn about THE most critical item in every protection 'system'
s) protest emotionally because you do not know of basic electrical concepts even taught to first semester engineers
t) and cannot bother to ask even one question to learn of so many basic electrical concepts.

Informed consumers earth before a surge enters a building. For some incoming utility wires, best protection is simply a hardwire connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground. For other wires that cannot be earthed directly, then a 'whole house' protector does what that hardwire does better. Then robust protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. Then everything is protected. Then adjacent protectors do not make damage easier. Since protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. And since a protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which your protector does not have.

Reason for making mistakes is to learn. Rather than ask to learn, your every reply has been adversarial, indignant, and insulting. Your every claim is subjective; without numbers. Your every reply seeking out a tiniest irrelevant fact to justify emotional accusations.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. You know not what metallic mode currents are, cannot bother to learn, nor understand why that knowledge is significant. Instead cry out emotionally as if technical knowledge would somehow harm you. And never learned a protector circuit is only as effective as its earth ground.

So much is awaiting you to learn. When do you start learning rather than complain and accuse?

 

[mastercylinder]

1. I was clear from the beginning what the circuit was and was not.
2. I was clear from the beginning what components were in the circuit.
3. I explained what the fuses were multiple times.
4. I am uninterested in going through things I already know about with you.
5. If it took you this many posts to realize I wasn't only using gas discharge tubes, how long before we can get it through your thick skull that I might have reasons for my choices?

Honestly, I'm done. I'm out. Cheers. Have the last word if you like(though, I'm not even going to look at it), I don't have room in my life for such an arrogant fool as you.