LIVE | Apartheid flag judgment

The banning of the old SA flag is proverbial of SA not learning the lessons of the past during apartheid when both the ANC and SA Communist flags were band as well, among other. Freedom of speech was dealt a decisive blow when this verdict was given by the Equality Court, which has recently made itself guilty of suspicious and contentious verdicts. The general feeling is that the verdict must be challenged in the Constitutional court where it should win it easily as this is a dire infringement of one's Constitutional rights. The old SA government was renowned for placing bans on not political issues only, but also moral ones, like porn, gays and gambling and we're facing a repeat of the current ANC government following suite. Under these circumstances such a banning of the old flag should be apposed, which has been supported by many black people now, cause by doing this you are empowering those who still support the flag for what ever reason. The question that needs to be raised when consideration to challenge this in the Constitutional Court is justified, is if it will really make a difference to the future or past SA, yes or no. If one looks at it from the perspective of the infringement of your rights to impeach freedom of speech, then it should be challenged. Time will tell.
 
'Contempt of court' flag case against AfriForum set for Tuesday

The Nelson Mandela Foundation (NMF), AfriForum and its deputy CEO Ernst Roets will face each other in court again on Tuesday in a contempt of court application following Roets' tweeting an image of the flag hours after an Equality Court judgment on the matter.

The foundation said it was resolute in seeing the matter through, and Roets confirmed to News24 that AfriForum would maintain its own stance regarding freedom of expression on the matter.

"Our legal team will be there and we will be opposing the matter," Roets told News24.

AfriForum has also filed an application for leave to appeal Judge Phineas Mojapelo's ruling last week that the "gratuitous" display of the old flag amounted to hate speech, and is still waiting to hear if this will be granted.



Last Wednesday, hours after the ruling, Roets tweeted: "Did I just commit hate speech?" with an image of the old orange, white and blue flag.
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More at:
www.news24.com

'Contempt of court' flag case against AfriForum set for Tuesday

AfriForum will be defending itself in a contempt of court application after its deputy CEO Ernst Roets tweeted a picture of the old South African flag hours after an Equality Court ruling.
www.news24.com www.news24.com
 
Hopefully sanity will prevail, and the stupid ruling of banning the old flag will be overturned.
Hopefully.
 
Are they banning public display of the flag or banning it entirely?
 
biometrics said:
Iirc displaying it in your house and having a previously disadvantages person working there is included.
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Correct... even if not having someone work there, you're not allowed to display it in privacy of own home... you may end up unintentionally traumatising someone... eg, if someone breaks in to your place to steal your ****, rape your wife/kids etc etc, you'll harm them emotionally and there will be all sorts of hell on your doorstep politically ;)
 
Temujin said:
Correct... even if not having someone work there, you're not allowed to display it in privacy of own home... you may end up unintentionally traumatising someone... eg, if someone breaks in to your place to steal your ****, rape your wife/kids etc etc, you'll harm them emotionally and there will be all sorts of hell on your doorstep politically ;)
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To be honest I wouldn't want it there if someone broke in. It will just entice them to be more barbaric.
 
ForceFate said:
Are they banning public display of the flag or banning it entirely?
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The judge said it's not a ban but a prohibition. In my eyes it's essentially been banned if you cannot display it. Oh well time to start jailing people for it then.



Nelson Mandela Foundation Trust and Another v Afriforum NPC and Others (EQ02/2018) [2019] ZAEQC 2; [2019] 4 All SA 237 (EqC); 2019 (10) BCLR 1245 (EqC) ; 2019 (6) SA 327 (GJ) (21 August 2019)

saflii.org saflii.org
Relief sought is not a ban

[201]Contrary to the protestations of Afriforum, the relief sought by the applicants in this matter is not a banning order against the Old Flag. The Mandela Foundation seeks only an order that will declare to all South Africans (including potential offenders and complainants) that the display of the impugned flag must be confined to genuine artistic, academic or journalistic expression in the public interest (i.e., it must qualify for the proviso in section 12 of the Equality Act). Any display beyond that may be brought before the Equality Court for the displayer to prove that the display was defensible (under the proviso) or to prevail on the Court to make an appropriate remedy.

[202]That amount of legal certainty is required first to provide certainty in circumstances where the display of the Old Flag during the October 2017 so-called Black Monday demonstrations caused serious violations of fundamental human rights; the ensuing debate was fairly widely covered in the country and remained inconclusive in certain respects leaving the door wide open for future repeat of the violation of fundamental human rights with potential polarisation of society along racial lines. Furthermore, there are prospects that in the light of certainty even parties that are currently opposing the application shall be strengthened in promoting the avoidance of hurtful displays of the Old Flag. Afriforum, which no doubt believed in the correctness of its submissions, has informed the Court that it is a reluctant opponent in these proceedings; that it has no love for the Old Flag and what it represents; that it is aware that most South Africans recoil from the Old Flag; it also says that it is committed to taking active steps to combat genuine hate speech. Now that the judgment has set out in some detail the extremely dehumanising and hurtful violations that flow from the gratuitous display even in current society, one expects Afriforum to live up to its own words, and thus help to build an inclusive South Africanness of all citizens united in their diversity based on mutual respect and genuine acknowledgment of equal dignity, despite the superficial differences in the skin colour.

[203]Even FAK did acknowledge that “The display of the Old Flag is frowned upon”. What was missing from its response and submissions was an attempt to view gratuitous (almost purposeless) displays from the perspective of the victims of apartheid oppression, whose hurt is sought to be protected. What FAK too may appreciate is that the order sought and granted is not a total “ban”, if one sees as a ban – which it is not. It is rather a prohibition which is carefully guided – falling within the ambit of the proviso in section 12 of the Equality Act. FAK made an uninvited commitment in paragraph 26 of its affidavit that: “Whatever the outcome, the FAK is willing and able to work together with any organisation or individual genuinely seeking to foster a social relationship of mutual respect for the cultural-historic identity of all cultural groups in South Africa.” That seems to be the statement of an organisation that is prepared to turn a new leaf and to engage about other cultures as well in the spirit of inclusivity of diversity. This then is its time. South Africa will move faster towards its vision of one nation united in its diversity.

[204] The parties were agreed in their submissions that, whatever the outcome of this case, none of them seeks costs against the others.



Order

[205]In the result, I make following order:

(1) In terms of section 21(1) of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act 4 of 2000 (“the Equality Act”), it is determined that the display of the old national flag of South Africa, introduced from 31 May 1928, and used throughout apartheid until it was abolished on 27 April 1994 (“the Old Flag”), at the ‘Black Monday’ demonstrations on 30 October 2017 constituted:

a. hate speech, in terms of section 10 (1) of the Equality Act;

b. unfair discrimination on the basis of race in terms of section 7 of the Equality Act;

c. harassment in terms of section 11 of the Equality Act.

(2) In terms of section 21 (2) of the Equality Act, it is declared that subject to the proviso in section 12 of the Equality Act, any display of the Old Flag constitutes:

a. hate speech in terms of section 10 (1) of the Equality Act;

b. unfair discrimination on the basis of race in terms of section 7 of the Equality Act;

c. harassment in terms of section 11 of the Equality Act.

(3) There is no order as to costs
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[201]Contrary to the protestations of Afriforum, the relief sought by the applicants in this matter is not a banning order against the Old Flag. The Mandela Foundation seeks only an order that will declare to all South Africans (including potential offenders and complainants) that the display of the impugned flag must be confined to genuine artistic, academic or journalistic expression in the public interest (i.e., it must qualify for the proviso in section 12 of the Equality Act). Any display beyond that may be brought before the Equality Court for the displayer to prove that the display was defensible (under the proviso) or to prevail on the Court to make an appropriate remedy.
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ie. the Mandela Foundation is seeking to ban the flag.
 
The Union flag (not apartheid flag) is anathema to the ANC mob because it represents civilization and progress which had been completely absent during the previous five thousand or so years
 
Should've let the flag die a natural death, like the flags before it.
Now people want to fly it.
Freedom of expression, freedom from political correctness, preservation of heritage, in protest against the ANC, take your pick.
 
Where in the world have black people as a society achieved anything? Everywhere it's been on the coat-tails of other nations. No majority black country has achieved anything and South of the Sahara it's been only downhill after the colonisers left. When you fail to achieve you start looking at outward causes like names, statues and flags.
 
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