Man impaled by swordfish

[Garson007]

As it happens I object to plants being killed needlessly too, and I'm not enough of a retard to think that the plant I ate didn't want to not be eaten just because it didn't have the facililities to scream in an emotionally distressing way.

WHAT THE ****!

 

[Lager]

As is hunting for food. The fact that you can survive without meat is core to the discussion here. You're not in a position where you have to eat meat to survive. The motivation for killing the animal is irrelevant when in both cases its death is completely unnecessary.

It's condemning one form of unnecessary cruelty while advocating another. Just admit that we're all just as bad as hunters and lets move on with our lives. I love my bacon, thus I don't bitch and moan when someone kills a wild boar for the fun of it.

again, say that to the rest of the omnivores. Meat is part of our diet, it has been for centuries
Your argument is completely and utterly outdated

 

[Zewp]

No, that is also cruel. There's a reason I no longer eat or buy chicken.

Who said I overlook the cruelty? I expect all animals to be treated humanely. That means no battery farming; it's unethical.

So you're applying your subjective morals here and expect everyone else to adhere to what you consider morally correct? Is that it? Some would say that farming animals is inhumane and unethical. You say that as long as they're killed humanely it's ethical. Whose moral compass do we follow?

Yeah, I'd have to eat plants instead. Why is an animal's life more important than a plant's? You didn't answer this question.

Is a plant sentient?

I do oppose unneccessarily killing of animals. AND plants. And that means only killing them insofar as there is a valid need. And eating for food is something all living organisms do, and they don't discriminate by what they can eat. I'm comfortable living by that natural law. Hunting purely for entertainment forms no part of it. If you don't eat what you intentionally kill as part of a ritualised activity of acquiring food to eat (i.e. "hunting"), you ought to be ashamed.

So we're to follow your moral compass again? It's okay to unnecessarily kill animals if you plan to eat them, but it's not okay if you don't plan to eat them? That about the gist of your argument?

Sounds to me more like you're spurting forth oodles of mumbo-jumbo to justify why Babe had to die so you could have bacon with your eggs. "law of nature" wtf? You're typing on a computer. You're not in nature. You've been given adequate reasoning skills so that you can discriminate by what you eat, and you don't have to eat meat. You simply choose to eat meat because it's a luxury you'd rather not go without. Anything further in defense of that is just more excuses to explain away why animals have to die unnecessarily so you can live in luxury. At the core, you're no better than the guy who hunts for sport. You simply like to pretend that you are so that you can feel morally superior.

And that's me out of this conversation. It's clearly going in circles at this point.

 

[Xarog]

WHAT THE ****!

It's called evolution, bud. Everything alive is driven to live. That includes plants. Therefore they also have will to live, even if it's not built into a brainstem somewhere. And guess what, I respect that about every living thing, no matter how uncomfortable it may make anyone else.

 

[Zewp]

again, say that to the rest of the omnivores. Meat is part of our diet, it has been for centuries
Your argument is completely and utterly outdated

No, yours actually is. You're not living in 4000BC. You don't have to eat meat to survive. Humans are perfectly fine on a herbivorous diet.

We simply choose to be omniverous because meat is good and we'd rather not go without it.

 

[Xarog]

So you're applying your subjective morals here and expect everyone else to adhere to what you consider morally correct? Is that it? Some would say that farming animals is inhumane and unethical. You say that as long as they're killed humanely it's ethical. Whose moral compass do we follow?

I follow mine. I told you what I think of hunting for sport. Clearly I am only speaking to my views. I fail to see the problem.

Is a plant sentient?

Does it matter?

So we're to follow your moral compass again? It's okay to unnecessarily kill animals if you plan to eat them, but it's not okay if you don't plan to eat them? That about the gist of your argument?

You were the one who started with the moral compass. Me showing you there's more than one compass actually weakens your argument, not mine. Whatever system you promote, I can promote a different one just as validly.

So once again, why is it wrong to torture animals if it's ok to kill them?

Sounds to me more like you're spurting forth oodles of mumbo-jumbo to justify why Babe had to die so you could have bacon with your eggs. "law of nature" wtf? You're typing on a computer. You're not in nature. You've been given adequate reasoning skills so that you can discriminate by what you eat, and you don't have to eat meat.

Bud, I warned you not to start with the sophistry. Now you're complaining that you can't deal. Man up or shut up.

You simply choose to eat meat because it's a luxury you'd rather not go without.

You call it a luxury. I do not. Why should I accept your baseless assertions?

Anything further in defense of that is just more excuses to explain away why animals have to die unnecessarily so you can live in luxury. At the core, you're no better than the guy who hunts for sport. You simply like to pretend that you are so that you can feel morally superior.

You're the tit that came in here pretending to be morally superior by criticising someone else for not liking hunting for sport. If you don't like it when someone does to you what you've done to others, maybe you should stop and think about what part of your behaviour set off the reaction in the first place.

And that's me out of this conversation. It's clearly going in circles at this point.

Yeah, cuz you cannot justify your arbitrary position.

So once again, why is torturing animals bad if killing them for sport is okay? (Not that I expect you to respond, I just want everyone to remember you had no response...)

 

[Garson007]

Everything alive is driven to live.

Everything alive simply is. It's not driven by anything. It's just pure chance that those that do propagate also survive. Well, duh. It has no drive or design to do or be anything. It's just simple statistics. It definitely does not have some right to life, no matter what your philosophical view is.

 

[grok]

We simply choose to be omniverous because meat is good and we'd rather not go without it.

Also sushi.. only this time the sushi bit back!

 

[Xarog]

Everything alive simply is. It's not driven by anything. It's just pure chance that those that do propagate also survive. Well, duh. It has no drive or design to do or be anything. It's just simple statistics. It definitely does not have some right to life, no matter what your philosophical view is.

You can't tell me what and how I should appreciate things.

And you should be very very happy that I'm the kind of guy that really does want the plants and the insects to be happy as well as people. Because if I didn't care about the animals who pretty much are incapable of cruelty, I sure as hell wouldn't give a damn about my fellow human beings.

When I was younger I had to avoid going near pools during certain times of the year or I'd get stuck for hours fishing drowing insects out of the pool. Now I'm old enough to accept that I cannot stop everything around me from dying. But not for a moment has my caring about life in general waivered for even one second. And you know what? I pity anyone who doesn't understand just how beautiful being in that kind of spiritual place is.

 

[chicken247]

It's called evolution, bud. Everything alive is driven to live. That includes plants. Therefore they also have will to live, even if it's not built into a brainstem somewhere. And guess what, I respect that about every living thing, no matter how uncomfortable it may make anyone else.

There is a reason kudu graze keeping the wind in mind if kept on small properties. Plants fight back and the kudu die when they dont. I cant wait for the rising of the carrots/potatoes/legumes. Moral high ground , my ass.

 

[Baxteen]

0k so let me get this straight.
there is only so much space on this planet.
1 domesticated animal uses up X amount of space and feeds Y amount of people.
crops take up N amount of space to feed the same amount of people.

quite literally by being vegetarian you are killing babies. you require the planet to use more space to produce food for you than I do, because I would rather have steak than beans.


back to topic. lol at the guy who died, random accidents like this are 100% funny.

 

[chicken247]

1 domesticated animal uses up X amount of space and feeds Y amount of people.
crops take up N amount of space to feed the same amount of people.

quite literally by being vegetarian you are killing babies. you require the planet to use more space to produce food for you than I do, because I would rather have steak than beans.

Sauce?

 

[Baxteen]

Sauce?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...8fdbe8-a495-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html

 

[chicken247]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...8fdbe8-a495-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html

That is not sauce, looking for wiki end of article academic type sauce.

 

[Baxteen]

That is not sauce, looking for wiki end of article academic type sauce.

problem with the internet is, you read something and don't save it.

I have looked a little, the problem is there is so many little points.
the same dataset will be written about in conflicting ways on a pro or a con website.

but let us assume for half a second, we do this research ourselves.
how much land would you use to grow all your food if you are a vegetarian. just you 1 person only vegetables.
now make you an omnivore, is the space used the same or more?
now lets make it a town of 20 people.

Vegetarian town uses up this much space for grain, corn, legumes, potatoes, carrots, tomatoes, chickens (for the egs only) goats and cows for sheep.

Omnivore town uses the same amount of space, but uses it better because the animals can be eaten as well. so in theory you could feed 25 people instead of just 20

simple logic states that as the amount of people increase the amount of space needed to produce food of purely vegetarian persuasion will increase, but the amount of space required for an omnivore diet will taper out.

when we get into carbon emissions vs calories things get more complicated.

my argument is purely based on square meter per kilojoule and there meat wins. by far. and veal is 100% the best thing to eat.

 

[Xarog]

Okay, please. You're all making my brain hurt.

Commercial farming is nowhere NEAR maximising the amount of available food in any given area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

There's no way that mass produced mechanised monoculture crap could ever stand even a remote chance of producing as much food in a given area as a properly constructed food web.

Waste nothing, respect everything and ye shall know abundance.

 

[Baxteen]

no its not.
but we will never live in the world where that happens.
but when that utopia rolls around, we can do the math again.

on the scale needed to feed the growing population of this cramped planet, we still need to eat meat to make space.
and one guy dying from a sword fish impaling him, and a lion chowing another is also making the world slightly better.

 

[Xarog]

no its not.
but we will never live in the world where that happens.
but when that utopia rolls around, we can do the math again.

on the scale needed to feed the growing population of this cramped planet, we still need to eat meat to make space.
and one guy dying from a sword fish impaling him, and a lion chowing another is also making the world slightly better.

Actually you can't afford not to live in that utopia because at some point mother nature is going to give humanity a very rude wake up call.

And don't count on the global population being 7 billion after the wake-up call ends.

 

[Baxteen]

Actually you can't afford not to live in that utopia because at some point mother nature is going to give humanity a very rude wake up call.

And don't count on the global population being 7 billion after the wake-up call ends.

meh, I have tasted bacon and steak. not going to stop eating it.
I have also done my part. actively working towards not breeding, I am pro death penalty and pro abortion.
I am going to enjoy my life, the rest of the planet can worry about what happens to the world in 50 years, I will be cremated by then.

but I think you might need to adjust your tinfoil hat

 

[Xarog]

meh, I have tasted bacon and steak. not going to stop eating it.
I have also done my part. actively working towards not breeding, I am pro death penalty and pro abortion.
I am going to enjoy my life, the rest of the planet can worry about what happens to the world in 50 years, I will be cremated by then.

but I think you might need to adjust your tinfoil hat

I never said you can't enjoy steak or bacon. There's nothing about permaculture which precludes such animals.

And I don't think anyone needs a tinfoil hat to see that we're blatantly ignoring just about every bit of good sense when it comes to preserving the global ecology; unless things change drastically that rude awakening is as certain as a lit match is likely to give off heat.