Manual vs Automatic

SauRoNZA said:
You mean people who think driving manual proves that they know how to drive.

Meanwhile they are just laboriously whacking at pedals and shifters does no good logical reason at all.
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So what type of car did you learn to drive in?
How did that influence your current level of driving skill?
Think about how that influenced the way in which you now drive your fancy automatic. What is it BTW? A real automatic or one of these toy cars with a lookalike "automatic " transmission?
Now, place yourself in a toy automatic car in the hands of a newly qualified driver on a highway and then think about all those idiots cruising along in the right-hand lane seemingly not able to get a move on.
THAT is the problem!
NO ONE who learnt to drive in one of these pathetic underpowered pieces of junk can claim to know squat about how to drive.
 
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Geoff.D said:
So what type of car did you learn to drive in?
How did that influence your current level if driving skill?
Think about how that influenced the way in which you now drive your fancy automatic. What is it BTW? A real automatic or one of these toy cars with a lookalike "automatic " transmission?
Now, place yourself in a toy automatic car in the hand of a newly qualified driver on a highway and then think about all those idiots cruising calong in the right hand lane seemingly not able to get a move on.
THAT is the problem!
NO ONE who learnt to drive in one of these pathetic under powered pieces of junk can claim to know squat about how to drive.
Click to expand...

I do agree that nobody should learn to drive in an automatic, but then I don’t think very many people actually do.

That’s more to do with the fact that manuals exist and I think everyone should know how to do use. It has little to do with innate driving ability.

I had a Golf GTI DSG, I actually don’t have a car at all now and use the wife’s Kia Picanto (Manual) when I need to.

I’m fully of the opinion that manuals are really just there to make said **** box small cars feel like they have more power than they really do.

Beyond a certain horsepower there is really no benefit to be had from a manual and it should be automatic all the way, as we’ve seen with modern day supers basically all round.

Oddly enough I’ve done a few advanced driving courses including the top tier high performance ones....and they are all done in automatics so that should tell you something.
 
Geoff.D said:
You all can argue as much as you like. Even torque converters, and especially those installed in the proliferation of smaller-engined cars have a clutch-type mechanism in them, that fail for the same reasons as those in manual systems, but are far more costly to replace or repair. Call it a "flexplate", a system of pulleys and belts, a one-way clutch to prevent the stator from turning in the reverse direction, whatever. It is those parts of the mechanism that are prone to abuse and failure.
Smaller engined cars should just never be equipped with these things.
You cannot change gears in any transmission system if there is not some or other mechanism that separates the power train from the transmission train, just basic mechanics.
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What you are referring to are the clutches in the automatic gearbox which are used to shift between gears while the torque converter handles the coupling/decoupling between engine and gearbox. The only clutch that is sometimes used within a torque converter is to lock up the engine to gearbox to reduce inefficiencies that are inherent in viscous type couplings like torque converters. Sure the internal gearbox clutches may wear but they don't take any near the loads that a manual clutch does as the torque converter serves the same purpose as a manual clutch.
 
Geoff.D said:
So what type of car did you learn to drive in?
How did that influence your current level if driving skill?
Think about how that influenced the way in which you now drive your fancy automatic. What is it BTW? A real automatic or one of these toy cars with a lookalike "automatic " transmission?
Now, place yourself in a toy automatic car in the hand of a newly qualified driver on a highway and then think about all those idiots cruising calong in the right hand lane seemingly not able to get a move on.
THAT is the problem!
NO ONE who learnt to drive in one of these pathetic under powered pieces of junk can claim to know squat about how to drive.
Click to expand...
You said initially that people who drive manual cars are the ones who know how to drive.
So now is it those who learned how to drive manual?

I drove manual today for the first time since May and was asked by the owner how I could just get in and drive the car better than they do.
 
SauRoNZA said:
I do agree that nobody should learn to drive in an automatic, but then I don’t think very many people actually do.

That’s more to do with the fact that manuals exist and I think everyone should know how to do use. It has little to do with innate driving ability.

I had a Golf GTI DSG, I actually don’t have a car at all now and use the wife’s Kia Picanto (Manual) when I need to.

I’m fully of the opinion that manuals are really just there to make said **** box small cars feel like they have more power than they really do.

Beyond a certain horsepower there is really no benefit to be had from a manual and it should be automatic all the way, as we’ve seen with modern day supers basically all round.

Oddly enough I’ve done a few advanced driving courses including the top tier high performance ones....and they are all done in automatics so that should tell you something.
Click to expand...
My wife also has a Picanto but the 1.2 auto.
It's a real pleasure to drive in traffic and definitely not as sluggish as people think.
 
PsYTraNc3 said:
You said initially that people who drive manual cars are the ones who know how to drive.
So now is it those who learned how to drive manual?

I drove manual today for the first time since May and was asked by the owner how I could just get in and drive the car better than they do.
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I have to remember to press down the clutch when I stop
 
My logic:

Daily for Traffic: Auto (ZF 8speeds or Aisin, maybe CVT)
Sunday car for pleasure: Manual
Track car for speed: Auto (DSG or other dual clutch system)

That's very simple ;)
 
PsYTraNc3 said:
My wife also has a Picanto but the 1.2 auto.
It's a real pleasure to drive in traffic and definitely not as sluggish as people think.
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Yeah I do sometimes wonder if we shouldn’t have just tried it.

The motion of an ancient 4-speed just made me say hell no without even trying it.

Thing is, with such a small car the manual adds a bit of fun to the equation. On bigger/more powerful cars it’s really nothing but unnecessary labour.
 
Judging by the slow downs that occur on every tiny little uphill on highway, it seems that the 'ware drivers who use manuals' don't know what they are doing and are too scared to downshift. What a menace. So much for all the 'skillz' and engagement. Always some polo or eco'sport' at the head of it.

"My little **** box is sooo engaging and fun cos it has a manual" - lol keep telling yourself that.
 
In my day, all the advanced driving training was done on manual transmissions ---- a sign of the times I suppose. Yes definitely, drivers of smaller cars with "automatic" transmissions will all benefit from proper training.

A manual transmission car is where you learn to become one with a car! It is the only way in my opinion, that anyone can truly learn to appreciate the joy of driving a car. All this automation is taking that away from all of us ---.
It is the same issue pilots of aircraft are experiencing. The really good ones are the ones that hone their skills in smaller planes and gliders. The others are no more than computer game jockeys. The "feel" is gone. Unless you go and do an advanced driving course I suppose.

I love that vibration when you put your hand on the gear lever. It connects you with your vehicle The fun of knowing when to change down to get optimum performance out of whatever you are driving,

And then to watch all these people in their automatics, at stoplights, jockeying between the engines cutting out and creeping forward as their foot gets tired holding the brake pedal down -- it is a joke.
I sit there in my manual in neutral, handbrake on, and just wait. No stress no fuss.
 
asshat99 said:
Judging by the slow downs that occur on every tiny little uphill on highway, it seems that the 'ware drivers who use manuals' don't know what they are doing and are too scared to downshift. What a menace. So much for all the 'skillz' and engagement. Always some polo or eco'sport' at the head of it.

"My little **** box is sooo engaging and fun cos it has a manual" - lol keep telling yourself that.
Click to expand...

Yup infinitely more fail from people in manuals.

Kak drivers will be kak drivers, but it is far more likely to affect all of us if they are in manuals.

I drove a manual RS4....it was so kak even the owner said the worst decision he made buying the car was not taking the automatic version.
 
Geoff.D said:
In my day, all the advanced driving training was done on manual transmissions ---- a sign of the times I suppose. Yes definitely, drivers of smaller cars with "automatic" transmissions will all benefit from proper training.

A manual transmission car is where you learn to become one with a car! It is the only way in my opinion, that anyone can truly learn to appreciate the joy of driving a car. All this automation is taking that away from all of us ---.
It is the same issue pilots of aircraft are experiencing. The really good ones are the ones that hone their skills in smaller planes and gliders. The others are no more than computer game jockeys. The "feel" is gone. Unless you go and do an advanced driving course I suppose.

I love that vibration when you put your hand on the gear lever. It connects you with your vehicle The fun of knowing when to change down to get optimum performance out of whatever you are driving,

And then to watch all these people in their automatics, at stoplights, jockeying between the engines cutting out and creeping forward as their foot gets tired holding the brake pedal down -- it is a joke.
I sit there in my manual in neutral, handbrake on, and just wait. No stress no fuss.
Click to expand...

If you argued that things like ABS took away from them learning to brake properly I could agree with you.

Same with ECS/TSM/TCS/ECR whatever you want to call it not teaching people what to do with the car when it starts going wrong and getting the true feeling for it.

But operating a manual really doesn't teach anyone anything about actual driving and this comes from a petrol head who has driven quite a few serious cars in my life and full blown race car as well.

Manuals in modern cars are really just clutches and it doesn't add any special skill to be able to use that. Gear selection remains the same in an automatic without a clutch and knowing when to shift down and choosing the appropriate gear remains the same skill.

By your logic because my motorcycle has a quick shifter on (hence only needing to use the clutch for launch) I am not a bumbling idiot who can't ride. Meanwhile I have all the benefits of going fully manual with the benefit of being infinitely faster at shifting.

And nobody's foot gets tired of holding the brake pedal down, people are simply impatient and hence they creep forward.....the very same things happens to people using manuals they just drag the clutch so I'm not sure why this is even being mentioned.

I put an automatic in Neutral with the handbrake on just like you do in any manual, because I'm not an impatient type, has nothing to do with the type of gearbox.

Your logic is completely flawed that manual makes for better drivers. If anything using automatics should shift people attention to the things that are really important like proper observation of their surrounding, especially in a learner capacity where they are easily distracted by looking down at the shift gate and the car following their gaze in that direction.

Automatic means eye up and paying attention to everything else. And the manual gear selection is still there when you want it and infinitely faster than any human gear change.

Most modern ones are also lighter on fuel.

But it's okay, the world has moved on and you older folk have a hard time dealing with change, we understand.
 
So the assumption is that "some Polo or Ecosport" is a manual????
An "automatic" still needs to be driven -- except maybe the larger more powerful ones. The smaller ones still need good old fashioned common sense to know when to "downshift".

The Internet is littered with comments about smaller "automatics" having undue "lag" poor responsiveness, etc.
All the below optimum performance in smaller cars leads to premature wear and tear. Couple that with poor maintenance?
No, given a choice between a manual and an automatic, I will always favour the manual.
 
SauRoNZA said:
If you argued that things like ABS took away from them learning to brake properly I could agree with you.

Same with ECS/TSM/TCS/ECR whatever you want to call it not teaching people what to do with the car when it starts going wrong and getting the true feeling for it.

But operating a manual really doesn't teach anyone anything about actual driving and this comes from a petrol head who has driven quite a few serious cars in my life and full blown race car as well.

Manuals in modern cars are really just clutches and it doesn't add any special skill to be able to use that. Gear selection remains the same in an automatic without a clutch and knowing when to shift down and choosing the appropriate gear remains the same skill.

By your logic because my motorcycle has a quick shifter on (hence only needing to use the clutch for launch) I am not a bumbling idiot who can't ride. Meanwhile I have all the benefits of going fully manual with the benefit of being infinitely faster at shifting.

And nobody's foot gets tired of holding the brake pedal down, people are simply impatient and hence they creep forward.....the very same things happens to people using manuals they just drag the clutch so I'm not sure why this is even being mentioned.

I put an automatic in Neutral with the handbrake on just like you do in any manual, because I'm not an impatient type, has nothing to do with the type of gearbox.

Your logic is completely flawed that manual makes for better drivers. If anything using automatics should shift people attention to the things that are really important like proper observation of their surrounding, especially in a learner capacity where they are easily distracted by looking down at the shift gate and the car following their gaze in that direction.

Automatic means eye up and paying attention to everything else. And the manual gear selection is still there when you want it and infinitely faster than any human gear change.

Most modern ones are also lighter on fuel.

But it's okay, the world has moved on and you older folk have a hard time dealing with change, we understand.
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Ha making assumptions again I see. leave the personal BS out of the debate.

Where did you get the "gear selection skill" from? That does not come by itself it comes with years of experience of driving ---. And someone who learns to drive in a toy automatic is going to take years and years to pick up that skill.

And who looks down to find the gear lever? Good well-trained drivers??

The new batch of drivers believes the hype about a car being an automatic. - it does it all for you!
That attitude of not being impatient and doing what you do at a light even in your automatic is ingrained into your psyche and you (whether you want to admit it or not) learnt that from the years when you drove only a manual.

And yes I agree with you about the comments about ABS etc.
 
Geoff.D said:
So the assumption is that "some Polo or Ecosport" is a manual????
An "automatic" still needs to be driven -- except maybe the larger more powerful ones. The smaller ones still need good old fashioned common sense to know when to "downshift".

The Internet is littered with comments about smaller "automatics" having undue "lag" poor responsiveness, etc.
All the below optimum performance in smaller cars leads to premature wear and tear. Couple that with poor maintenance?
No, given a choice between a manual and an automatic, I will always favour the manual.
Click to expand...

An automatic doesn't shake like a manual that is shifted wrong or badly.

Quite easy to see in many cases when it's a manual vs automatic from the fore/aft motion or stuttering.

And a stall is of course a dead giveaway.
 
Geoff.D said:
Ha making assumptions again I see. leave the personal BS out of the debate.
Click to expand...

Didn't think that I got personal, so my bad if it was perceived that way.

Where did you get the "gear selection skill" from? That does not come by itself it comes with years of experience of driving ---. And someone who learns to drive in a toy automatic is going to take years and years to pick up that skill.
Click to expand...

It's a skill not required of anyone who doesn't really care for cars.

And it's a skill still easily acquired by someone who does....even in an automatic.

And who looks down to find the gear lever? Good well-trained drivers??
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Read my post again....

" especially in a learner capacity where they are easily distracted by looking down at the shift gate "

You said it makes for better drivers. I'm arguing the exact opposite that during the learning stage it makes for far worse drivers and a danger to everyone else.

A scourge to our roads I believe were your words, but it's not important enough to go verify now.

I'm actually of the opinion that learns should all start on an automatic to first learn how to place a car on the road and be observant to what's around them and pay attention to road signs etc.

Then once that is "muscle memory" they can upgrade to learning to use the manual gearbox and then go do their license.

I'm also of the opinion though that people should complete basic practical training before being allowed to take a learners test but I'm never going to win that one even though it makes no logic sense to have people operate heavy machinery in a public space without any training whatsoever.

The new batch of drivers believes the hype about a car being an automatic. - it does it all for you!
That attitude of not being impatient and doing what you do at a light even in your automatic is ingrained into your psyche and you (whether you want to admit it or not) learnt that from the years when you drove only a manual.
Click to expand...

That logic will apply to mostly anything regarding driving and not much at all with manual in particular. To this day most people don't understand that ABS is a passive technology and they believe it makes them stop better and faster which isn't always true and the sad reality is that most will never even use the ABS because they'll lift their foot the first time it activates and in doing so they will actually brake less and still crash.

Partly why I believe you should have advanced training before getting a license.

And yes I agree with you about the comments about ABS etc.
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Note that I don't disagree with you that all drivers should learn to operate a manual before getting a license.

I don't agree though that using automatics makes you a bad driver or that you can't become a good one driving an automatic.

After all we have RACE DRIVERS now (really good ones at that) that learnt to drive on Gran Turismo before they even got licenses to operate on the road. So all that automatic could make you must better at it by shifting your focus to things that matter.
 
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