I liked your original post. Had to remove it for the - almost- ninja edit.
And seriously, WTF has a truck got to do with the issue at hand?
Someone mentioned age before; so I am going to ask you - how old are you?
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Manual vs Automatic
- Thread starter DrewChan
- Start date
I liked your original post. Had to remove it for the - almost- ninja edit.
And seriously, WTF has a truck got to do with the issue at hand?
Someone mentioned age before; so I am going to ask you - how old are you?
Why would you have to "work out' how to drive an auto 8-speed ZF gearbox?
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Well IF you know anything about trucks, you will know that they have rather interesting transmission systems of their own.
And I said I would have to work out how to drive one of them cars because I am not so presumptuous to assume that all I would have to do is get in turn the key and drive away.
I have driven my share of automatic cars, old and new.
The first one was a Valiant ( Chrysler) that was a 3 speed automatic . Drove it from Middleburg (Heydon) in the Karro to BFN for repair of the ------ automatic gearbox. Had to drive it in 3rd gear all the way on about 70 km of dirt road (1971 if I remember correctly).
And I said I would have to work out how to drive one of them cars because I am not so presumptuous to assume that all I would have to do is get in turn the key and drive away.
I have driven my share of automatic cars, old and new.
The first one was a Valiant ( Chrysler) that was a 3 speed automatic . Drove it from Middleburg (Heydon) in the Karro to BFN for repair of the ------ automatic gearbox. Had to drive it in 3rd gear all the way on about 70 km of dirt road (1971 if I remember correctly).
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Dan C
Honorary Master
LOL yes my dad drove a Valiant in the early 70s. 3 speed indead. But today's 6 speed autos are far superior to manuals.
ToxicBunny
Oi! Leave me out of this...
Everything I'm seeing is Geoff stuck in the past and refusing to see that technology has evolved and autos are in many ways superior to manuals these days.
Dan C
Honorary Master
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
The valiant belonged to my uncle. Yes first impressions count for a lot. So ja my bias against automatics probably extends from that 400 odd km ride in a an automatic stuck in 3rd..
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
Was driving a manual up kloofnek, I wish people would get automatics instead because they can't seem to understand downshifting exists.
Was a BMW 1 series in front of me, he didn't manage to get above around 40, while left lane was another guy similar in a Honda.
Automatic vs manual doesn't matter if the driver is bad.
That said, I've never had an issue with downshift going uphill in an automatic unless driving e.g. An H1, that thing has terrible gear ratios but I can manually downshift so it's fine. Anything else with power mode and it's easy.
Worst was traffic near the top, was seriously considering automatic as my next car because of it, having to find clutch point every 2m/5 seconds is annoying. That said I generally prefer manual because I enjoy shifting, even in traffic it's fine if not an extreme uphill for a while, e.g. In town the large bridge or N1 on ramp is fine.
Was a BMW 1 series in front of me, he didn't manage to get above around 40, while left lane was another guy similar in a Honda.
Automatic vs manual doesn't matter if the driver is bad.
That said, I've never had an issue with downshift going uphill in an automatic unless driving e.g. An H1, that thing has terrible gear ratios but I can manually downshift so it's fine. Anything else with power mode and it's easy.
Worst was traffic near the top, was seriously considering automatic as my next car because of it, having to find clutch point every 2m/5 seconds is annoying. That said I generally prefer manual because I enjoy shifting, even in traffic it's fine if not an extreme uphill for a while, e.g. In town the large bridge or N1 on ramp is fine.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
That is my gripe with low powered "automatics" in the hands of people who can't drive anyway.
No one (in SA) should be allowed to pass a driving test in an automatic. They should all learn to drive manuals, then they can do as they like after that.
Not sure what the law says now but in many countries, there are two grades of licences, one for autos and one for manuals. A Manual licence allows you to convert but an auto licence means you have to re-pass the test if you want to drive a manual.
It is only the more sophisticated autos with enough power and torque convertors that are truly "automatics". The rest are under-powered toys waiting to break down in the hands of inexperienced drivers.
Our roads are deteriorating fast. The country is filled with large tracks of roads far removed from easy access to support. There many many purely practical reasons why a manual is better than an automatic in our country besides the purely superficial crap that is quoted as being an advantage of an automatic.
Women prefer automatics - probably because that frees up a hand for them to be able to put their make up on in the car or paly with their cell phones, NOT because they want to be safer drivers. so much of that safety argument is moot at best because one can never fully factor in the stupidity of the human being.
Obviously, there are many people who would not be able to drive at all if it was not for having an "automatic" and I am not including them in this categorisation.
It should be obligatory on car manufacturers to run special courses for all new owners of "automatics". Only then will they be able to say they have done their bit to ensure new car owners are able to drive their "automatics".
Jonathan's post highlights the issue. Automatics will not be guaranteed to downshift in all circumstances and kloofnek in the Cape is a test for all drivers on their first encounter with that road, regardless of owning a manual or an automatic.
You have to know the capability of the vehicle beforehand and develop a 6th sense about these things, which you will NOT learn easily in an automatic.
A manual box is mechanically, the simplest of all things. It is a bunch of gears, a bit of oil in a box with a gear lever and a clutch that does EXACTLY what the driver determines.
Modern automatic boxes are extremely complex things full of all sorts of things that when the break are and will always be more expensive to fix and repair AND maintain. The cheaper the design for the low-end car market the more risk there is of mechanical failure. The stats are there for anyone to see if you want to doubt this. Go and look for yourself. The "modern boxes" have added complexity to overcome many other things such a poor fuel economy, power loss through the chain etc. that adds to the importance of proper and regular maintenance.
So sure, IF the roads are all good, low gradient hills etc, and in dense traffic, an auto is "easier to drive" BUT it is only really an experienced driver that can truly appreciate those added benefits. The rest take it all for granted until their toy automatic breaks down late at night on the N14 close to a squatter camp. Then the message gets home. You can't even tow the stoopid thing easily (if you don't know how and who reads the manual anyway???), you cant push start it and because of all the electronics in it, you can't even jump start it. That is when the message truly gets through.
No, I can do without all those hassles. It has to be an upmarket proper automatic for me, or, a manual. And that is why I will not take an automatic low-end hire car ever. I have no personal knowledge of how well it has been maintained and abused by others. Give me a manual every time.
No one (in SA) should be allowed to pass a driving test in an automatic. They should all learn to drive manuals, then they can do as they like after that.
Not sure what the law says now but in many countries, there are two grades of licences, one for autos and one for manuals. A Manual licence allows you to convert but an auto licence means you have to re-pass the test if you want to drive a manual.
It is only the more sophisticated autos with enough power and torque convertors that are truly "automatics". The rest are under-powered toys waiting to break down in the hands of inexperienced drivers.
Our roads are deteriorating fast. The country is filled with large tracks of roads far removed from easy access to support. There many many purely practical reasons why a manual is better than an automatic in our country besides the purely superficial crap that is quoted as being an advantage of an automatic.
Women prefer automatics - probably because that frees up a hand for them to be able to put their make up on in the car or paly with their cell phones, NOT because they want to be safer drivers. so much of that safety argument is moot at best because one can never fully factor in the stupidity of the human being.
Obviously, there are many people who would not be able to drive at all if it was not for having an "automatic" and I am not including them in this categorisation.
It should be obligatory on car manufacturers to run special courses for all new owners of "automatics". Only then will they be able to say they have done their bit to ensure new car owners are able to drive their "automatics".
Jonathan's post highlights the issue. Automatics will not be guaranteed to downshift in all circumstances and kloofnek in the Cape is a test for all drivers on their first encounter with that road, regardless of owning a manual or an automatic.
You have to know the capability of the vehicle beforehand and develop a 6th sense about these things, which you will NOT learn easily in an automatic.
A manual box is mechanically, the simplest of all things. It is a bunch of gears, a bit of oil in a box with a gear lever and a clutch that does EXACTLY what the driver determines.
Modern automatic boxes are extremely complex things full of all sorts of things that when the break are and will always be more expensive to fix and repair AND maintain. The cheaper the design for the low-end car market the more risk there is of mechanical failure. The stats are there for anyone to see if you want to doubt this. Go and look for yourself. The "modern boxes" have added complexity to overcome many other things such a poor fuel economy, power loss through the chain etc. that adds to the importance of proper and regular maintenance.
So sure, IF the roads are all good, low gradient hills etc, and in dense traffic, an auto is "easier to drive" BUT it is only really an experienced driver that can truly appreciate those added benefits. The rest take it all for granted until their toy automatic breaks down late at night on the N14 close to a squatter camp. Then the message gets home. You can't even tow the stoopid thing easily (if you don't know how and who reads the manual anyway???), you cant push start it and because of all the electronics in it, you can't even jump start it. That is when the message truly gets through.
No, I can do without all those hassles. It has to be an upmarket proper automatic for me, or, a manual. And that is why I will not take an automatic low-end hire car ever. I have no personal knowledge of how well it has been maintained and abused by others. Give me a manual every time.
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SauRoNZA
Honorary Master
It would have been no different had the Valiant been a manual stuck in third.
The automatic has basically nothing to do with any of it.
Once again your issue is misdirected and has nothing to do with the gearbox.
SauRoNZA
Honorary Master
It’s like that in SA as well.
If you test in an automatic you get a license for automatic only.
If you test in a manual you can drive anything in the same class.
So again you’ve contradicted your own point.
Anyone who passed out with an automatic will only ever be driving an automatic and therefore will know exactly how it operates. They don’t need to apply any manual logic to it or learn how to drive a manual to operate it.
I do however agree everyone should be doing their test on a manual, if for no other reason than being able to drive anything in an emergency.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
A manual car stuck in any gear is fixable by anyone. The local tractor mechanic on the nearest farm could have sorted that out.
SauRoNZA
Honorary Master
I’m sure the 3-speed automatic on a Valiant is no different.
Modern automatic not so much, but then they also never get stuck in any gear so it’s not even a problem to ponder.
You missed the point completely. Even that sluggish car can down shift. Sorry, but you are totally clueless. Living in the past. Pretending that a manual makes you old bakkie 'engaging and sporty' and into a race car that you can play with 'modern fancy bmws' on slight up hills. Dream on buddy.
With the amount of deaths on South Africa’s roads every year, specifically December, I reckon the debate over manual and automatic is pretty moot as South Africans prove beyond doubt that by and large they are terrible drivers no matter what they are driving.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Yes this is very much a debate about personal preferences. And that way others' attack alternative viewpoints is so typical. Anyone that does not simply follow the steeple is automatically attacked and accused of being "clueless".
Never mind 45 years of experience driving all sorts of vehicles from tractors to large machinery with a range of automatic and semi automatic boxes. Just because I do not let anyone lead me by the nose and fall for all the hype about low powered cars and cheap automatics. Does not mean I am clueless, just super critical about what we are all led to believe by the auto manufacturers.
Never mind 45 years of experience driving all sorts of vehicles from tractors to large machinery with a range of automatic and semi automatic boxes. Just because I do not let anyone lead me by the nose and fall for all the hype about low powered cars and cheap automatics. Does not mean I am clueless, just super critical about what we are all led to believe by the auto manufacturers.
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Foxhound5366
Honorary Master
Geoff, that’s rich coming from you. You are the chatter who has been most aggressive in your views and insulting of drivers of automatic cars. Too late to become a snowflake just because you realize you’re wrong now.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
My issue is with cheap low powered automatic cars on the roads. And drivers of those cars who don't know how to drive them. That is my view take it or leave it.
I have made the point that it is about driver training as well. I have given examples based on direct observation of driver behaviour in automatics to illustrate that automatics are not the panacea everyone thinks they are. An automatic gearbox does not replace or make driver intervention unnecessary. There are times when you as the driver must intervene..
Others' have also given examples.
So while nothing we do as the driving consumer is going to change the trend, it does not make it right just incredibly sad .
Especially when the industry tries to justify their moves with misleading and very often factually incorrect information.
Just stick to the actual motive. The auto industry wants to survive in the face of the environmentalist attacks on it and has decided that amongst other things, taking away an option to still make and sell manual transmission is part of that survival strategy.
Even when it is quite easy to show that the contribution to efficiency environmental impact and even safety is tenuous at best
Subject closed for me I am done here finally. These placed on the unwatched list.