Masters in Computer Science - how is it valued in SA

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CrazYmonkeY159

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So a simple question

Are people with a M.Sc in Computer Science valued in SA? whats the current situation in the job market on Honours graduates and M.Sc graduates in computer science?
 
i think it would depend on your experience. I know MSc grads with 0 experience who are working as Junior Programmers. I know people with over 10 years of experience who are moving into management and following their Masters to stand-out a little. It also depends on the company - some companies, especially those trying to imitate larger internet giants...., will give it value because they reckon you must be a bookworm/smart person in order to get it. Other companies only care about experience.

Generally in South Africa though, in my experience, alot of value is given to degrees - more so than in places like the UK.

The other questions is do you have one or are you considering doing one? (a masters). sounds like you are considering doing one, on the basis that it would make you more marketable? I think at that level marketability should be incidental, and you should rather have a solid idea of what you are interested in and what you want to be doing for the forseeable future - i.e.I recommend a fair bit of life experience before making this decision. Otherwise you'll invest the money and time into something potentially arbitrary.

With 0 experience, you will start in the same position as an honours grad with 0 experience. It's not like your first role is going to be "lead developer" or "architecht" or whatever. So I would recommend getting experience and letting your ambitions for the future unfold a little, before going masters.

Simple question maybe, simple answer? Nope.
 
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Markd said:
Generally in South Africa though, in my experience, alot of value is given to degrees - more so than in places like the UK.
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I've never seen a UK IT job that didnt require a degree of some kind. A lot of South African IT jobs require degrees but not all of them. The ads I see mostly say that they are preferred.

Two of my colleagues, who both have a few years of work experience, are currently studying a Masters in Software Engineering through Wits, part time.

Is it worth it? I dont know, probably.
 
Well i worked there for 4 years and came across many opportunities where employers were mainly interested in experience. My point is that in my experience, the focus abroad is on professional experience moreso than qualifications, whereas in South Africa, if you dont have the qualifications you dont even qualify for a response from 99% of recruitment agents - regardless of how much experience you have. In SA there is definitely value in having an MSc but you need to be sure of your reasons for doing it, as well as being clear with regards to what you want to get out of it.
 
That is the other thing I would add - you need to choose a master's subject very carefully to make sure it actually adds to your career.

For instance, I would love to do a masters in artificial intelligence but it wont do much for my career as a .net developer. Well unless I ended up writing some kind of AI in .net.
 
Markd said:
i think it would depend on your experience. I know MSc grads with 0 experience who are working as Junior Programmers. I know people with over 10 years of experience who are moving into management and following their Masters to stand-out a little. It also depends on the company - some companies, especially those trying to imitate larger internet giants...., will give it value because they reckon you must be a bookworm/smart person in order to get it. Other companies only care about experience.

Generally in South Africa though, in my experience, alot of value is given to degrees - more so than in places like the UK.

The other questions is do you have one or are you considering doing one? (a masters). sounds like you are considering doing one, on the basis that it would make you more marketable? I think at that level marketability should be incidental, and you should rather have a solid idea of what you are interested in and what you want to be doing for the forseeable future - i.e.I recommend a fair bit of life experience before making this decision. Otherwise you'll invest the money and time into something potentially arbitrary.

With 0 experience, you will start in the same position as an honours grad with 0 experience. It's not like your first role is going to be "lead developer" or "architecht" or whatever. So I would recommend getting experience and letting your ambitions for the future unfold a little, before going masters.

Simple question maybe, simple answer? Nope.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I am considering one, actually its kind of weird, im still to graduate, my bursar is willing to fund my honours and masters (provided I keep satisfactory academic results up). I was just asking because I never really intended to do masters, and now that the oppertunity has come up, it has gotten me thinking, Over my undergrad I have done quite a few internships(over the 2month holidays), while that does not count for experience imo, I do have a better understanding of how it would be like to work at a company.

But at this stage its early days I guess..
 
well if someone is prepared to pay for it for you then there is big motivation to do it. Honors I would definitely go and get for a slight competitive advantage, and more prescribed knowledge. Consider how much it would cost to do Masters on your own though (probably around 35k? Plus if you did it part time, it would take 1 year extra most likely). The monetary cost is not that significant when you are working, have experience, and pulling an ok wage. The time will probably be more of a key factor - opportunity costs.

In terms of value to company, some will find it of value, others wont as I've mentioned.

In terms of value to you, at Masters level I recommend working and living a little bit first. That way you get value out of what you decide to do and where your true interests lie, which you may only uncover in years to come depending on where life takes you :)
 
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I tend to disagree with a lot of the above comments. If you're looking to work a top firm, a masters degree will be hugely beneficial.

If you're being sponsored, it all depends on your bursar. The longer they sponsor you, the longer you'll have to work for them once you've graduated - so keep that in mind. That being said, the top development jobs in SA and abroad require at least an honours degree, and a masters/doctorate is usually preferred. And yes, you might still start at the bottom, but "the bottom" is a relative term. Working at Amazon, for example, you'd be working alongside some of the countries brightest developers for one of the Big 5 technology firms, earning a R40k++ starting salary with 0 years experience. And you won't be considered for an interview at Amazon without at least an honours - unless your undergrad grades are impeccable and you really stand out of the crowd.

Your masters degree should also help you climb the ladder quicker, and will score you more points if you ever look at emigrating.

At the end of the day it all depends on your priorities. You shouldn't have any problems finding a good job at a good company with a BSc from a reputable university, but if you want to work for a great company with extraordinary talent, a masters degree will stand you in good stead.
 
One of my lecturers left the university about a year after I graduated, he had his masters IIRC. He ended up working at another company that was a vendor for one of the banks, my company was also a vendor with the same bank and worked sort of along side of him.

I never could work out if we were at the same level but when I was looking to relocate I ended up going for an interview at his company and I saw him there. They pretty much explained that I would be doing what he does... I never got the job but I could see that they were looking for something a lot more than what I had to offer.

Its hard to see how doing your masters will get you further as you sort of have to still start at the bottom. Once you have done your time you will move up a lot faster and get a lot further.

I know a lot of my friends who never got degrees are regretting it now, its sort of the same with Masters and Honors, not having them will limit you later.
 
I work for one of the top insurers in SA. The answer to me was that they don't even care about an honours degree, experience is valued above all else.

Because I work for them I've gotten to talking with some of the people from large banks (FNB, Standard bank). Same thing there, experience is valued above qualifications.

Some of the guys working in our company worked for firms in the UK, US, France and Australia, all of them Java developers. One guy is a original member of one of the larger Apache projects (still is, I don't want to say which project because it will be immediately obvious who he is), another guy used to work for Sun Microsystems (and developed part of the Java EE specifications) other guy has worked for myriad of insurance, Telecom and banking companies in SA as independent contractor (some of you would be surprised that you are using some of these applications).

I sit close to these guys and they constantly get called for jobs or contracts. All just with good ol' BSc (no hons). And by BSc I mean BSc in unrelated fields.

IMHO Masters isn't worth the paper it is written on. I'm still a student and I know the guys who have masters degrees (they supervise my own research) and they aren't even close to the same level as these other guys on a technical level. Comparing them is an insult, the Masters guys have NO IDEA what is happening in the industry and they are years behind. Their knowledge isn't usable at all (so all those years spent on research was just a waste of time they could have used to gain experience).

But hell some companies are impressed by a piece of paper so it all depends.
 
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This is turning out to be a very interesting thread. :) I tend to agree with Markd's comments, but a lot of other valid points have been raised.

In my personal view on having a MSc(CS), the biggest difference is this: Having one will probably make a difference in your salary, even if only slightly, by virtue of higher qualifications entitling you to a higher salary... but that's not always the case. That's it.

An MSc does not make you a better developer, but a better computer scientist. No they're not the same, but that's a whole other discussion. It comes down to practical vs. academic. This translates into the same distinction between work experience and qualifications. Therefore it would make sense to have one if you want to specialise in a specific field (as mentioned previously in the discussion). On the other hand, not having a MSc does not automatically exclude you from applying for a job that "requires" one (job ads generally describe their /ideal/ candidate). It would be shortsighted of a company to consider only MSc graduates and I, personally, would probably not want to work for such a company anyway. Most of them don't, though.

As Gnome mentioned there are absolutely brilliant people who have no or only "basic" CS qualifications and that is certainly also the case in my experience. Conversely I know MSc graduates who wouldn't be able to code their way out of a simple if-statement. :P Of all the top devs I know, only 2 of them (IIRC) have MSc degrees and it's not the degree that earned them that reputation.

I, for one, will not be doing my MSc... unless it's "free" (ie. I get paid my current salary for studying full-time)... and I get to research something that I'm *really* interested in... so probably not. :P

Oh, but hons. is a whole different story. It's worth getting one of those. :)
 
CrazYmonkeY159 said:
Thanks, I am considering one, actually its kind of weird, im still to graduate, my bursar is willing to fund my honours and masters (provided I keep satisfactory academic results up). I was just asking because I never really intended to do masters, and now that the oppertunity has come up, it has gotten me thinking, Over my undergrad I have done quite a few internships(over the 2month holidays), while that does not count for experience imo, I do have a better understanding of how it would be like to work at a company.

But at this stage its early days I guess..
Click to expand...

Just do it & never look back! :)

Thats the only way you'll get a top job in SA, unless you're black.
 
hof said:
Working at Amazon, for example, you'd be working alongside some of the countries brightest developers for one of the Big 5 technology firms, earning a R40k++ starting salary with 0 years experience. And you won't be considered for an interview at Amazon without at least an honours - unless your undergrad grades are impeccable and you really stand out of the crowd.

Your masters degree should also help you climb the ladder quicker, and will score you more points if you ever look at emigrating.
Click to expand...

Really? 40k with 0 experience? Do you have any actual proof to back that claim, because it sounds quite amazing. I think it's rare for those firms to recruit people with 0 experience. I never worked for Amazon but i spent some time at another such company and the grads usually got very entry level roles, earning nowhere near that. Also how many of these companies are operating in SA on a large enough scale to be actively building development teams? Amazon have a dev team in Cape Town. Not sure of others.

On your point on emigration, yes, thats absolutely true. If you want to move to the UK on a Highly Skilled Migrant Visa, for example, you will need at least a Masters Degree these days, plus some experience.
 
hof said:
I tend to disagree with a lot of the above comments. If you're looking to work a top firm, a masters degree will be hugely beneficial.

If you're being sponsored, it all depends on your bursar. The longer they sponsor you, the longer you'll have to work for them once you've graduated - so keep that in mind. That being said, the top development jobs in SA and abroad require at least an honours degree, and a masters/doctorate is usually preferred. And yes, you might still start at the bottom, but "the bottom" is a relative term. Working at Amazon, for example, you'd be working alongside some of the countries brightest developers for one of the Big 5 technology firms, earning a R40k++ starting salary with 0 years experience. And you won't be considered for an interview at Amazon without at least an honours - unless your undergrad grades are impeccable and you really stand out of the crowd.

Your masters degree should also help you climb the ladder quicker, and will score you more points if you ever look at emigrating.

At the end of the day it all depends on your priorities. You shouldn't have any problems finding a good job at a good company with a BSc from a reputable university, but if you want to work for a great company with extraordinary talent, a masters degree will stand you in good stead.
Click to expand...

Nerfherder said:
One of my lecturers left the university about a year after I graduated, he had his masters IIRC. He ended up working at another company that was a vendor for one of the banks, my company was also a vendor with the same bank and worked sort of along side of him.

I never could work out if we were at the same level but when I was looking to relocate I ended up going for an interview at his company and I saw him there. They pretty much explained that I would be doing what he does... I never got the job but I could see that they were looking for something a lot more than what I had to offer.

Its hard to see how doing your masters will get you further as you sort of have to still start at the bottom. Once you have done your time you will move up a lot faster and get a lot further.

I know a lot of my friends who never got degrees are regretting it now, its sort of the same with Masters and Honors, not having them will limit you later.
Click to expand...

These two have got it spot on. I concur completely.

Markd said:
Really? 40k with 0 experience? Do you have any actual proof to back that claim, because it sounds quite amazing. I think it's rare for those firms to recruit people with 0 experience. I never worked for Amazon but i spent some time at another such company and the grads usually got very entry level roles, earning nowhere near that. Also how many of these companies are operating in SA on a large enough scale to be actively building development teams? Amazon have a dev team in Cape Town. Not sure of others.

On your point on emigration, yes, thats absolutely true. If you want to move to the UK on a Highly Skilled Migrant Visa, for example, you will need at least a Masters Degree these days, plus some experience.
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Yes, he's not BSing. I'm not in the comp sci field but I am a PhD student in the electronic engineering field. From the people I know and the people I've spoken to, I've come to the conclusion that a postgrad degree will allow you to start off on a higher salary but the biggest benefit is that it will fast-track you to higher positions than someone with just an undergraduate degree.

As for the actual benefit to you, a postgrad degree allows you to specialise in sub-field of your field (i.e. comp sci). If you were to go and work for some big guys who don't use your specialty, it won't mean that much initially but being a specialist in the right field can make all the difference as you'll get offers from all sorts of companies you've never even heard of who pay top-dollar as their field of specialty is the same as yours.
 
On that note, how much of a difference is there between MSc and MIT in terms of value
 
On the job market its all about demand and supply, if you gain work experience in field where there are few professionals companies will do anything to have you skill. It has got nothing to do with qualifications, however if you are in profession where they are spoiled for choice then they will start to look at qualifications and all of that silly stuff.

I can tell you that I have had two positions where I never even went for interview they looked at my CV and offered me job, why because there are very few professionals
 
kingrob said:
Just do it & never look back! :)

Thats the only way you'll get a top job in SA, unless you're black.
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I am black :O

anyways my parents think its a good idea to do my Masters, people from Amazon have come in to speak to us and they do prefer postgraduates alot (really low number of non postgrad workers there)

While lurking the job market It has come to my attention that none of the job listings actually ask for candidates with M.Sc, Its the reason why I felt compelled to start this thread, because I really dont know what employers want.
 
If you want my 2c worth then here goes:

Study forever!

^ That is all you will ever need to know - and since you have a sponsor, milk it to the bitter (or sweet) end.
I have a job and miss the freedom of studying, enjoying myself and having plenty of time to learn great new things.

The money you get froma job will never be as satisfying as your studying years, no matter what anyone says.
 
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