Mbeki comes to Manto's defence

[Mila]

http://www.news24.com/Content/South...8-12-2009-07-24/Mbeki_comes_to_Mantos_defence

Anti-retroviral medicines (ARVs) have always been part of the public health system and the people have always received them," Mbeki's spokesperson, Mukoni Rat****anga, said on Thursday during a telephone interview.

According to research done by the Harvard School of Public Health in the US, over 330 000 people died as a result of Aids between 2000 and 2005, because they did not receive ARVs from the government in time.

Rat****anga said the health department, with the guidance of Tshabalala-Msimang, followed a "holistic approach" to fight HIV/Aids.

"If you put this policy and the implementation thereof under a microscope, it's difficult to comprehend where anyone could find the proof of 330 000 deaths

"She simply mentioned those as examples of foods which can fortify the immune system. Nutrition was only one of the aspects of the holistic approach. There was also a focus on prevention, condoms, and the breaking down of the stigma."

 

[noxibox]

"If you put this policy and the implementation thereof under a microscope, it's difficult to comprehend where anyone could find the proof of 330 000 deaths

That would be because those are binoculars and you're holding them the wrong way round. Rat **** indeed.

Although totally appropriate to criticise her for destroying the public health system in this country and being responsible for the death of thousands of people with AIDs, the real scorn should be poured on the morons who gave this incompetent woman such an important position.

 

[Kosmik]

Still in denial, eh Thabo.

 

[Maddmatt]

The only reason I opened the article was to see why the name Mukoni Rat****anga was censored. I LOL'ed

 

[semiautomatix]

Still in denial, eh Thabo.

Thabo is in the deep friend, Manto got off easily. If he believed she was at fault then so was he. Rock... T-bone... Hard place.

 

[Therooster]

My , my , my ...all the histrionics and hysteria from people on this issue.

She never said Beetroot and Garlic could cure aids. It WAS ENTIRELY taken out of context by the media.

Some of you might not like your drama watered down with inconvenient facts , but this is 100% the objective truth. The A.n.c never one single time ever denied the existance of Aids or proposed ridiculous ways to "cure" it. This is a media myth and anyone who was too lazy to ever examine these claims skeptically and jumped on the "Dr beetroot" bandwagon is a total idiot. Shame on you.

I challenge anyone to show me anywhere where these claims have been made by the A.N.C , without taking anything out of context and loading anything with your imagination or prejudice. In a world full of oportunistic pharmaceutical companies and psedu science , Thabo Mbeki's views on Aids were extremely intelligent and sophisticated in his holistic approach to the issue in an African context.

 

[hyperian]

According to research done by the Harvard School of Public Health in the US, over 330 000 people died as a result of Aids between 2000 and 2005, because they did not receive ARVs from the government in time.

So long Manto. Now you'll get a chance to answer to all those people.

 

[EtienneK]

The only reason I opened the article was to see why the name Mukoni Rat****anga was censored. I LOL'ed

Same here! Lol

 

[BBSA]

Maybe it was her own fault that she was "missunderstood" and not the media's

Manto Tshabalala-Msimang
September 2000

Robbie: You have said that the policy of the ministry is well known. Do you accept that HIV causes Aids?

Tshabalala-Msimang: Why do you ask me that question today? I have answered that question umpteen times.

R: Yes, and the answer is?

T-M: Umpteen times I have answered that question. My whole track record of having worked at the area of HIV and Aids for the last 20 years is testimony. Why should you ask me that question today?

R: You haven't answered the question, Manto.

T-M: Why should you ask me that question?

R: To avoid confusion.

T-M: I have never said anything contrary to what you want me to say today.

R: So, therefore, you accept that HIV causes Aids.

T-M: You are not going to put words into my mouth.

R: I am not putting words into your mouth. I am asking you a question.

T-M: Yes you are.

R: I am asking you a straight - now hold on a second - I am asking you a straight question, the minister of health of South Africa, I am asking you a question: does HIV cause Aids?

T-M: I have been party to developing a strategic framework and that strategy testifies what my policy understandings of the HIV epidemic are. If you haven't read that, please go and read it. And then you will understand where I depart from.

R: Manto, Manto. A simple yes or no is the answer I am looking for.

T-M: You will not force me into a corner into saying yes or no.

R: I am not forcing you into a corner, I am asking you a straight question - I find your reaction bizarre.

T-M: I would advise you to read the strategic framework. You have to analyse it. It is important for the media to inform the public about the positions of government ... It is time that when you interview people, not on yes or no, but on the tenets of the framework.

R: Manto, we have gone as far as we can go. I find your reaction to that question absolutely bizarre and that is my final word on it.

T-M: I am not Manto to you. Let me tell you I am not Manto to you.

R: What are you?

T-M: I am the minister of health and I don't even know you.

R: So, what must I address you as, Miss Minister or Ms Minister or Mrs Minister?

T-M: I don't know whatever you address me, but I am not a friend.

R: How must I address you?

T-M: I don't know - but you have to read the strategic framework.

R: Bizarre.

T-M: And I

... R: Oh go away!

T-M: And I am ...

R: I cannot take that rubbish any longer. Can you believe it? I have never in my life heard such rubbish. Here we have a situation where the minister of health sends out a document, amongst others, that is Looney tunes, that suggests that the Illuminati have conspired with the aliens to bring about Aids to reduce the African population. Now you get the minister on [radio] to explain this and see what happens. "Given that the president has led, not just in South Africa, but a complete world controversy, where many people think this country has been held up to ridicule at an international conference over this issue and given the proximity of the two, I thought it would be a good idea to get the minister in on this issue ... "... the fact that she would not answer that question leads me to be very, very worried indeed. I find that bizarre. Anyway, I won't call her Manto again".

 

[semiautomatix]

Maybe it was her own fault that she was "missunderstood" and not the media's

Hehehe, John Robbie is awesome.

My , my , my ...all the histrionics and hysteria from people on this issue.

She never said Beetroot and Garlic could cure aids. It WAS ENTIRELY taken out of context by the media.

Some of you might not like your drama watered down with inconvenient facts , but this is 100% the objective truth. The A.n.c never one single time ever denied the existance of Aids or proposed ridiculous ways to "cure" it. This is a media myth and anyone who was too lazy to ever examine these claims skeptically and jumped on the "Dr beetroot" bandwagon is a total idiot. Shame on you.

I challenge anyone to show me anywhere where these claims have been made by the A.N.C , without taking anything out of context and loading anything with your imagination or prejudice. In a world full of oportunistic pharmaceutical companies and psedu science , Thabo Mbeki's views on Aids were extremely intelligent and sophisticated in his holistic approach to the issue in an African context.

I trust this clears up the issue for you TR. Manto was clearly having a good day if she was able to tie her shoe laces.

 

[DreamKing]

My , my , my ...all the histrionics and hysteria from people on this issue.

She never said Beetroot and Garlic could cure aids. It WAS ENTIRELY taken out of context by the media.

Some of you might not like your drama watered down with inconvenient facts , but this is 100% the objective truth. The A.n.c never one single time ever denied the existance of Aids or proposed ridiculous ways to "cure" it. This is a media myth and anyone who was too lazy to ever examine these claims skeptically and jumped on the "Dr beetroot" bandwagon is a total idiot. Shame on you.

I challenge anyone to show me anywhere where these claims have been made by the A.N.C , without taking anything out of context and loading anything with your imagination or prejudice. In a world full of oportunistic pharmaceutical companies and psedu science , Thabo Mbeki's views on Aids were extremely intelligent and sophisticated in his holistic approach to the issue in an African context.

shame on you!

the problem I found on those ANC's supporters are they are absolutely shameless. They rewrite history, they crooked facts, they changed morals standard from time to time to serve their own agenda, they are creating racial conflicts and hatred etc.........

GOD is looking at you, life is too short, and do you believe you will go to hell for all those shameless behaviours after you died?

 

[daveza]

Do you honestly think she prescribed beetroot and garlic to cure Aids ?

Manto Tshabalala-Msimang
7 June 2006

"People say 'your stall is great'. I don't know what they are reporting on at home. We haven't shocked the world, we have told the truth...I don't mind being called Dr Beetroot." - Health Minister Tshabalala-Msimang, responding to criticism of South Africa's garlic, lemon and beetroot exhibit at the International Aids Conference in Toronto...2 vials of pills were hurriedly added to the stand on Sunday after journalists posed questions about the absence of antiretroviral drugs.

What can I say...

 

[gregmcc]

Rat s h i t anga

Waaa haaaa. Love the censorship

 

[noxibox]

shame on you!

the problem I found on those ANC's supporters are they are absolutely shameless. They rewrite history, they crooked facts, they changed morals standard from time to time to serve their own agenda, they are creating racial conflicts and hatred etc.........

My goodness they sound like the old National Party supporters.

 

[manesan]

My , my , my ...all the histrionics and hysteria from people on this issue.

She never said Beetroot and Garlic could cure aids. It WAS ENTIRELY taken out of context by the media.

Some of you might not like your drama watered down with inconvenient facts , but this is 100% the objective truth. The A.n.c never one single time ever denied the existance of Aids or proposed ridiculous ways to "cure" it. This is a media myth and anyone who was too lazy to ever examine these claims skeptically and jumped on the "Dr beetroot" bandwagon is a total idiot. Shame on you.

I challenge anyone to show me anywhere where these claims have been made by the A.N.C , without taking anything out of context and loading anything with your imagination or prejudice. In a world full of oportunistic pharmaceutical companies and psedu science , Thabo Mbeki's views on Aids were extremely intelligent and sophisticated in his holistic approach to the issue in an African context.

You are 100% correct, it was never the policy of the ANC. However lets look back at Thabo and Mantos history on it.

In 2000 Mbeki invited several AIDs denialsts into his presidential advisary panel on AIDS. He then allowed a quack, David Rasnick to address a group of scientist and doctors on HIV/AIDS at the International AIDS conference in Durbs: from WIKI

"In 2000, when the International AIDS Conference was held in Durban, Mbeki convened a Presidential Advisory Panel containing a number of AIDS denialists, including Peter Duesberg and David Rasnick.[78] The Advisory Panel meetings were closed to the general press; an invited reporter from the Village Voice wrote that Rasnick advocated that HIV testing be legally banned and denied that he had seen "any evidence" of an AIDS catastrophe in South Africa, while Duesberg "gave a presentation so removed from African medical reality that it left several local doctors shaking their heads."[36]

In his address to the International AIDS Conference, Mbeki reiterated his view that HIV was not wholly responsible for AIDS, leading hundreds of delegates to walk out on his speech.[79] Mbeki also sent a letter to a number of world leaders likening the mainstream AIDS research community to supporters of the apartheid regime.[78] The tone and content of Mbeki's letter led diplomats in the U.S. to initially question whether it was a hoax.[80][81]

AIDS scientists and activists were dismayed at the president's behavior and responded with the Durban declaration, a document affirming that HIV causes AIDS, signed by over 5,000 scientists and physicians

We also had the issue were the health minister denied Nevarapine to pregnant women, which would have reduced transmission of the virus. There was overwhelming studies in developed countries on ARV's however our minister and president were sceptical about these facts as it was coming from "big pharma". They often referred to ARV's as toxic and poisonous, the type of language most commonly used by denialists. The rollout of ARV's was implemented after huge pressure. However the rollout was up until recently was a half hearted effort. The new administration has done more in the last 2 weeks than what Mbeki and Manto did in 10 years.

We then had our president in parliament asking the question, "How can a virus cause a syndrome."

Next comes the numerous health workshops around the country for government officials with literature referring to ARV's as toxic and poisonous.

Apart from allowing that quack Rasnick onto Mbeki's AIDS forum, Rasnick was also worked for a quack of the highest order, Mattheus Wrath. These guys were allowed to peddle their "Vitamin Treatment" with the full knowledge of Manto (She had met them on several occasions). God only knows how much of blood he has on his hands. It was up to the TAC to shutdown their operations.

Then theres the beetroot, although they never came out and said it was a cure, it was always said to be a holistic approach although ARV's were never mentioned, causing confusion as to whether it was actually an alternative to ARV's.

After Nozizwe Matlala Routledge got some traction on deploying ARV's while Manto was on leave, she was promptly fired.

I could go on but im tired of typing. She could have come out and cleared her stance on HIV/AIDS, she never did, from my side Ive got no sympathy or forgiveness for her.

 

[scotty777]

The only reason I opened the article was to see why the name Mukoni Rat****anga was censored. I LOL'ed

you lol'd at Rat-Sh*t- anga?

 

[Therooster]

You are 100% correct, it was never the policy of the ANC. However lets look back at Thabo and Mantos history on it.

In 2000 Mbeki invited several AIDs denialsts into his presidential advisary panel on AIDS. He then allowed a quack, David Rasnick to address a group of scientist and doctors on HIV/AIDS at the International AIDS conference in Durbs: from WIKI

"In 2000, when the International AIDS Conference was held in Durban, Mbeki convened a Presidential Advisory Panel containing a number of AIDS denialists, including Peter Duesberg and David Rasnick.[78] The Advisory Panel meetings were closed to the general press; an invited reporter from the Village Voice wrote that Rasnick advocated that HIV testing be legally banned and denied that he had seen "any evidence" of an AIDS catastrophe in South Africa, while Duesberg "gave a presentation so removed from African medical reality that it left several local doctors shaking their heads."[36]

In his address to the International AIDS Conference, Mbeki reiterated his view that HIV was not wholly responsible for AIDS, leading hundreds of delegates to walk out on his speech.[79] Mbeki also sent a letter to a number of world leaders likening the mainstream AIDS research community to supporters of the apartheid regime.[78] The tone and content of Mbeki's letter led diplomats in the U.S. to initially question whether it was a hoax.[80][81]

AIDS scientists and activists were dismayed at the president's behavior and responded with the Durban declaration, a document affirming that HIV causes AIDS, signed by over 5,000 scientists and physicians

We also had the issue were the health minister denied Nevarapine to pregnant women, which would have reduced transmission of the virus. There was overwhelming studies in developed countries on ARV's however our minister and president were sceptical about these facts as it was coming from "big pharma". They often referred to ARV's as toxic and poisonous, the type of language most commonly used by denialists. The rollout of ARV's was implemented after huge pressure. However the rollout was up until recently was a half hearted effort. The new administration has done more in the last 2 weeks than what Mbeki and Manto did in 10 years.

We then had our president in parliament asking the question, "How can a virus cause a syndrome."

Next comes the numerous health workshops around the country for government officials with literature referring to ARV's as toxic and poisonous.

Apart from allowing that quack Rasnick onto Mbeki's AIDS forum, Rasnick was also worked for a quack of the highest order, Mattheus Wrath. These guys were allowed to peddle their "Vitamin Treatment" with the full knowledge of Manto (She had met them on several occasions). God only knows how much of blood he has on his hands. It was up to the TAC to shutdown their operations.

Then theres the beetroot, although they never came out and said it was a cure, it was always said to be a holistic approach although ARV's were never mentioned, causing confusion as to whether it was actually an alternative to ARV's.

After Nozizwe Matlala Routledge got some traction on deploying ARV's while Manto was on leave, she was promptly fired.

I could go on but im tired of typing. She could have come out and cleared her stance on HIV/AIDS, she never did, from my side Ive got no sympathy or forgiveness for her.

My friend , my dear misguided uninformed friend. This is GOOD science. You see the best way to come to a valid conclusion about a phenomena is to have as much data as possible. Anyone anti someone ever suggesting that more data from skeptics on anything is valuable is anti the scientific method. If there is a large group , as with the aids denialist camp , made up of credible scientists and virologists then they ought to be heard. Anyone suggesting they should not be heard clearly has an un scientific agenda. Pharmaceutical companies for example were very anti the idea and went full out to lobby against it. Good for Mbeki for simply saying all sides of the arguments should be heard before deciding how best to act. Especially when at the time all data was showing people with poor diets dying quicker rom ARV's that without.

Seriously dude...do not engage me in this debate. I will wipe the floor with you.

Let's have another debate. Can sex alone account for HIV. Given all studies done show that at most you need 1000 - 2000 sexual exposures to someone with hiv to stand a reasonable chance of contracting the disease .So either ...

A) African people really really shag way too much more than is humanly possible.
B) Sex alone can't explain hiv.
C) Hiv is grossly exageratted. In fact at the levels currently said to exist it's twice as common as herpes. A disease extremely easy to get compared to HIV.

So what is it ?

 

[Kosmik]

Let's have another debate. Can sex alone account for HIV. Given all studies done show that at most you ned 1000 - 2000 sexual exposures to someon with hiv to stand a reasonale chance of contracting the disease .So either ...

A) African people really really shag way too much more than is humanly possible.
B) Sex alone can't explain hiv.
C) Hiv is grossly exageratted. In fact at the levels currently said to exist it's twice as common as herpes. A disease extremely easy to get compared to HIV.

So what is it ?

:wtf:

 

[Therooster]

:wtf:

Well ?

I think you will find once you enter the debate all your preconceptions are about to fail.

 

[manesan]

My friend , my dear misguided uninformed friend. This is GOOD science. You see the best way to come to a valid conclusion about a phenomena is to have as much data as possible. Anyone anti someone ever suggesting that more data from skeptics on anything is valuable is anti the scientific method. If there is a large group , as with the aids denialist camp , made up of credible scientists and virologists then they ought to be heard. Anyone suggesting they should not be heard clearly has an un scientific agenda. Pharmaceutical companies for example were very anti the idea and went full out to lobby against it. Good for Mbeki for simply saying all sides of the arguments should be heard before deciding how best to act. Especially when at the time all data was showing people with poor diets dying quicker rom ARV's that without.

Seriously dude...do not engage me in this debate. I will wipe the floor with you.

Let's have another debate. Can sex alone account for HIV. Given all studies done show that at most you need 1000 - 2000 sexual exposures to someone with hiv to stand a reasonable chance of contracting the disease .So either ...

A) African people really really shag way too much more than is humanly possible.
B) Sex alone can't explain hiv.
C) Hiv is grossly exageratted. In fact at the levels currently said to exist it's twice as common as herpes. A disease extremely easy to get compared to HIV.

So what is it ?

While I do agree that credible scientists should be heard, the "scientists" who work for Mr Wrath are not credible. They are quacks trying to peddle their snake oil and have been rejected from the scientific community. If they can put something credible on the table I will listen, but for now they just have their vitamins. So for the time being I will stick on the side which has 99.999% of support of doctors and scientists.