Microsoft Windows 8 plans leave Nokia hamstrung

Jeepers, I'm still seething at the stooopidity of this article. Forgive me for sounding off.

Nokia knew every step and detail before they bet the shop on WP. They knew in detail what the WP7 to WP8 transition entailed. And the WP8 to WP9 rev, by the way. After all, they have to engineer the blerrie phones, and that's not just blowing a blerrie ROM downloaded last night from Redmond. There's very serious detailed engineering of hardware and software, with systems disciplines most journos can't even fantasize about, apparently. Nokia knows future plans down to chipsets still on the drawing board, with software plans for exploitation and support, to very great detail. And for all the componentry, devices, subsystems, down to boggling detail one can scarcely imagine. Nokia's component and subsystem orders and delivery schedules from dozens of suppliers for 2014 are already done in detail, or do these people think you just drop an email and it all comes together in a week? The world just doesn't work like that.

Neither Microsoft nor Nokia could wait two years for WP8, which is a re-engineering so mammoth most people still don't get it despite MS being quite clear. Hence WP7. By 2010 enough WinRTP API's had been defined for a first release to at least get a placeholder phone OS out there, with enough functionality to do the main phone jobs. They knew in 2010 that WP8 is when the engine changes to the same one as in servers, desktops, and tablets, with common services - and that is a HUGE issue not many journalists seem to have grasped the import of (perhaps not surprisingly). By the way, these things are not done overnight - it took Android 4 years to even get to a semi-functional first release, for pete's sake (before and after Google bought the company), and even after release it took a year for them to get a soft keyboard.

Nokia is not "hamstrung". They're grateful for a way forward, because it gets them into a platform that has immense promise in their own judgment, one they believe is worth risking the whole multi-billion euro company on. It's not a decision taken in darkness and ignorance.

And WP7 users should not feel schnaaid. If they do it's because their expectations were wrongly set by the same sort of shoddy journalism as the OP article - it doesn't come from Microsoft or Nokia (find me a single first-hand quote that says anything other than what we have). Yes, there are column-kilometres of speculations and opinions by all sorts of self-appointed experts, and the vendors can't be held to the speculations of the Press. WP7 users' phones work as advertised. I have a WP7 phone. I don't feel hamstrung or betrayed or let down in the least.

But I do feel immensely chagrined by stupid articles like this. That's what hamstrings us.
 
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How do these journalists think multi-million or multi-billion deals are done by decades-seasoned business people, for crying in a bucket!? .

Many journalists fall into the trap thinking they're industry insiders and know as much as the people inside the companies. People are reporting on this like Steve Elop was watching the WP8 announcement at home, and when they said "Lumia 900 won't upgrade" he spilled his coffee in his lap while he got on the phone in a panic to Steve Ballmer to say WTF DUDE!
 
Many journalists fall into the trap thinking they're industry insiders and know as much as the people inside the companies. People are reporting on this like Steve Elop was watching the WP8 announcement at home, and when they said "Lumia 900 won't upgrade" he spilled his coffee in his lap while he got on the phone in a panic to Steve Ballmer to say WTF DUDE!
Yeah. It's un-blerrie-believable. It's arrogant and insane beyond words.
 
Funny enough I am for once agreeing with Arthur and friends re the Journalist that have no clue, for a different reason of-course but I do think the journalist must go get his money back.
 
If iOS or WP tell you screw you, you can not go but I want it, See example Siri where Apple decided nope not gonna give it to older ones. On SGSIII all the "hackers" did was export the S Voice and made it available for anyone with root to install it.

How is this different to jailbreaking your iOS device and unlocking features Apple locked, or grabbing Nokia-specific apps from xda-developers and putting them on your non-Nokia WP7 device?

I installed all the Nokia apps on my HTC Titan. Exactly the same as your S-Voice example. Didn't even have to jailbreak it, I have a dev account and MS supplies the sideloading app for you, all legal, even if the .xap from xda-developers isn't :)
 
Interesting link, thanx for the share.

I can answer from our side re the development or how we see it in our company.

We are guilty of the same, developing for iOS 1st and only if there is demand on iOS, do we expand to Android.

A. iOS is a better "test" environment as there is less things that could interfere with our application. The sand-boxing of the OS and the lack of root/custom roms makes it easier to problem solve and debug. Android have way to many things that could cause funny reaction in a app and loads of them are external (Other developers that stuff around to roms that excluded some library)

B. iOS users are full of ****, no question about it. If they don't like the flow of a program or the look of a picture, they tell you, unlike Android users that make do. iOS users will tell you if a button looks funny, and demand you fix it. Android users will just move on and look for another app.

Only when above 2 are sorted will we look at demand or how many people wanted the application vs how many is on the market (iOS users are more willing to pay as well not because they have money or piracy but because they lack that make do attitude that Android users normally have) If demand is high we make an Android app but only target the top brands/version. 9 times out of 10 that is all that is needed. If there are complaint on model X give this problem we will then look at expanding but only then.

Great (and interesting) reading it from a developer's side!
 
Don't know how true it is but saw this on ZDnet the other day and seeing how it ties into the whole dev argument I am posting it here...

Summary: A widely circulated report by Flurry Analytics uses dubious data to draw unsupportable conclusions.

Last week Flurry Analytics released a report on iOS vs. Android titled “App Developers Signal Apple Allegiance Ahead of WWDC and Google I/O“. The report has been widely circulated around the internet, and generally accepted as factual with little or no critical review. A ZDNet investigation shows that the report’s math is flawed and its charts are misleading, thus throwing doubt onto all of its conclusions.

Link: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/...-android-allegiance-called-into-question/2571
 
"The journalist" has a name and is watching this thread, guys ;)

Just wanted to point out that I don't think I'm an industry insider or that I know more about Microsoft than Ballmer or more about Nokia than Elop.

Arthur is probably right about Nokia being informed (at some stage at least) that Windows Phone 8 would not be made compatible with old hardware. Do we know for certain when Nokia or the other vendors were informed? Unless Arthur is an industry insider who is educating us (which would be great, incidentally), no.

As Arthur's lengthy responses have shown, this is a fairly tricky topic to tackle in a 600 word column. There are a lot of ifs and buts to cover unless one of the two companies (or "sources close to the situation") are willing to spill the beans.

Here's the bottom line: While it's fair to harp on the article headline (who reads whole articles nowadays anyways), here's where I referenced the schnaaiing in actual body (emphasis mine):

Ze Article said:
For those who have been paying attention, you may have already picked up where Nokia, or at least its customers, were schnaaied...

If you bought a Lumia 900 in April, sorry boet. If you're a South African and you don't follow these kind of developments in tech news and you end up buying a Lumia 900 next week, then sorry for you too.

The expectation that your smartphone would be upgradable to newer versions of the software that powers it is not an unreasonable one. Neither Apple nor Google make promises in that regard and yet they deliver it. People expect it because that's what Microsoft's competitors are doing.

And before it gets mentioned: Yes, Apple and Google have stopped supporting older devices, but neither have made software changes that essentially made it impossible for yesterday's flagship phone to receive the latest version of an OS.

At the risk of starting a whole separate flame war: While the evil, mis-informed, naval-gazing, self-obsessed (tech) media gets blamed for a lot of things (I've done some blaming myself in a column on this very website, in fact), we are in some part reflections of the communities/readership we serve.

I didn't make up expectations and disappointments. I observed them and distilled them into [-]flamebait[/-] a column.
 
I agree with Arthur regarding what both these companies would have already known regarding their roadmaps.
That does lead me to an important conclusion: both these companies KNEW that they would be screwing their customers (and microsoft avoiding the question of whether WP7.5 would be upgradable to WP8 was a big clue)

That's why I will not support them now, or in the future.
 
Well to be fair its not like its really shocking new information

See for example: http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Windows...ne-8-Upgrade-Windows-8-apollo,news-14348.html 3 March 2012
or http://www.gsmarena.com/current_windows_phone_mango_devices_wont_get_the_apollo_update-news-4108.php 18 April 2012
or http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-phone-8-preview-142154 2 Feb 2012


The clues where all over the place, only thing I do blame the parties of is that they let the rumors live their own life even after they knew them to be true. For example they could have just mentioned it back when they did http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/exclusive-windows-phone-8-detailed
 
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I agree with Arthur regarding what both these companies would have already known regarding their roadmaps.
That does lead me to an important conclusion: both these companies KNEW that they would be screwing their customers (and microsoft avoiding the question of whether WP7.5 would be upgradable to WP8 was a big clue).

Hey, all companies do this to a degree. Of the products I have on my desk,

- iPad1 has just been EOL'ed by Apple. It won't be getting any more updates. The hardware is clearly capable of it, but no matter.
- My Galaxy Tab is still sitting on Honeycomb, no ICS in sight. I blame Samsung for that, but Google really doesn't care about end users either - it's made absolutely no effort to help expediate the device updates. Yes I could hack it on, but the fact I would have to resort to that proves my point.
- I have an HTC Hero here somewhere that it officially stuck on v1.6 - no update was ever issued in ZA.
- My HTC Titan won't get WP8, but will get most the features with 7.x updates as a consolation prize.

They all suck. They just take the money and run.
 
The clues where all over the place, only thing I do blame the parties of is that they let the rumors live their own life even after they knew them to be true. For example they could have just mentioned it back when they did http://pocketnow.com/windows-phone/exclusive-windows-phone-8-detailed

What MS needs to do is make a big old chart with the major new WP8 features, and another column about what will be in WP7.8. We still don't know what's in and what's out. It might turn out we're all over-reacting, and the exclusive features that WP8 will get aren't that numerous and really are reliant on the new generation of hardware. If they CAN'T do it, that's okay. If they WON'T do it, they're bastards.
 
Nokia can't back away now - WP7 is about the only part of the company making a profit at the moment.

Nokia has obviously known about this for ages and MS/Nokia have talked it out, I'm sure they have a plan. Besides, most users really don't care - how many normals do you see using Android devices with old versions, they don't know what ICS is, and never will see it on their devices. WP7 users will see the new WP7.8 start screen, probably get free navigation and think hey cool, nice update! And get on with their lives.

As a WP7 user, I'm disappointed about the EOL of the hardware, but as a geek I'm happy as this is a great excuse to buy a new WP8 phone!

HTC announced their WP8 lineup today (looks like it mirrors their One range), so looks like they're eager to get back in the game - they've been hurting on the Android side lately, and have seen how well WP7 worked for Nokia when they gave it some attention.
Actually Nokia's smartphone division (including WP7) is the worst performing profit wise in the company, and I think it can mostly be blamed on the Lumia's. But i agree Nokia can't back away, the way things are going they will be needing a bailout from MS soon
 
Nice essay Arthur, but you live in dreamland. I had to LOL at your perception that Microsoft treats Nokia as this "super" partner.

Last time I checked Samsung is the world's number one mobile phone manufacturer....and I'm sure Elop must go and wait outside when the Samsung CEO arrives at Redmond.

Nokia is not the big company you think it is anymore, in fact their shares are described as "junk shares" right now. And their company value of €300 bn in 2007 has now shrunk to €20 bn.

As we all know, Microsoft shares and company value are a totally different story.

So, Nokia is standing on a burning platform and Microsoft offers them a safety net....they had to take the plunge, or rolled over, as Steve Ballmer most probably told his buddies after the deal was signed.

And Elop wasnt exactly a CEO-in-waiting at Microsoft, so I reckon Steve Ballmer tolerates him, because Nokia is giving them lots of cash for Windows phone licences & that's that.

So....to conclude....Nokia had no clue Windows Phone 8 was just around the corner. And there's no way Microsoft would have thought it necessary to tell them, hence the Nokia 900 launch & lots of capital wasted by the stupid Finns.
 
Actually Nokia's smartphone division (including WP7) is the worst performing profit wise in the company, and I think it can mostly be blamed on the Lumia's. But i agree Nokia can't back away, the way things are going they will be needing a bailout from MS soon

Where do you base your "it can mostly be blamed on the Lumia's" thing? I based my opinion on what Steven Elop said at the last earnings call, where he said Symbian disappointed, but Lumia exceeded expectations. Nokia's trying to wind down Symbian as fast as possible, while ramping up their investment and focus in Lumia.
 
So....to conclude....Nokia had no clue Windows Phone 8 was just around the corner. And there's no way Microsoft would have thought it necessary to tell them, hence the Nokia 900 launch & lots of capital wasted by the stupid Finns.

You can't be serious? Nokia is not just "along for the ride", Microsoft needs them just as much as Nokia needs Microsoft. And it seems to be paying off. If you read any of the reputable tech blogs the impression of WP8 from the majority of posters is overwhelmingly positive. Everyone has to start somewhere, so did Android, and iOS. People forget WP is only got released end of 2010. To be where it is in 2012 (WP8 and what it will offer) is impressive.

Windows Phone 7 will get many of WP8's advancements such as the voice recognition for example, this is clearly stated in informational roundups of WP8. Even though 7.5 users won't get the hardware improvements that come with new handset, it is by now means left to die, seeing as the 100 000 existing apps will work on WP8 and form the basis of WP8
 
Last time I checked Samsung is the world's number one mobile phone manufacturer....and I'm sure Elop must go and wait outside when the Samsung CEO arrives at Redmond

So....to conclude....Nokia had no clue Windows Phone 8 was just around the corner. And there's no way Microsoft would have thought it necessary to tell them

lolwtf? Nokia delivers results for MS. Not thinking they get special treatment for WP is just being stupid. I didn't see any other hardware vendor invited to talk at the WP8 unveiling. Pretty much all those phones Samsung sells don't run MS software, and Samsung spend all their ad money on Android.

And to think MS keeps these things secret from their hardware vendors is plain ignorant. They work with them developing the platforms for months or years before the public gets wind of them in these keynotes.
 
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Where do you base your "it can mostly be blamed on the Lumia's" thing? I based my opinion on what Steven Elop said at the last earnings call, where he said Symbian disappointed, but Lumia exceeded expectations. Nokia's trying to wind down Symbian as fast as possible, while ramping up their investment and focus in Lumia.
I view expectations as referring to units sold, that doesn't cover the margin made on each unit sold, and we don't know what their expectations were so it doesn't mean much. They sell 3 smartphone OS's, WP7, Symbian and Meego
NOKIA SMARTPHONE SPLIT BY OS IN Q1
- 65% of Nokia branded smartphones still are sold running Symbian.
- 18% are running MeeGo and
- 17% are running Windows Phone.
Source: TomiAhonen Consulting Estimates May 16, 2012 from vendor data and other sources
This table may be freely distributed
So here you can see the sales breakdown, link http://communities-dominate.blogs.c...al-jamboree-year-of-smartphone-bloodbath.html
Meego is sold at a premium compared to WP7 phones.
http://communities-dominate.blogs.c...lumia-800-vs-lumia-710-how-many-nokia-n9.html
So Lumia and Meego are almost equal in sales with the N9 having a much higher selling price and most likely lower manufacturing cost since it uses nokia's own suppliers and factories while the Lumia's can only use MS approved components which will not receive the bulk discount Nokia gets from sharing components between the Symbian and Meego platforms. It is obvious Nokia has a much larger profit from the N9 than the Lumia's and although there is no figure for symbian since it does use Nokia components and suppliers it also probably has a higher profit margin than WP7. So only logical profit drainer here is the WP7 division.
 
ISo here you can see the sales breakdown,
...
So Lumia and Meego are almost equal in sales with the N9 having a much higher selling price and most likely lower manufacturing cost since it uses nokia's own suppliers and factories while the Lumia's can only use MS approved components which will not receive the bulk discount Nokia gets from sharing components between the Symbian and Meego platforms. It is obvious Nokia has a much larger profit from the N9 than the Lumia's and although there is no figure for symbian since it does use Nokia components and suppliers it also probably has a higher profit margin than WP7. So only logical profit drainer here is the WP7 division.

Okay I think it was you that posted links to that site before. It's a total BS click-bait site. That guy quotes figures from "TomiAhonen Consulting" WHICH IS HIMSELF and doesn't give any explanation of how he got it (he even admits in the comments it was a guesstimate). He clearly has an axe to grind against Nokia/MS.

The rest of what you said is just your speculation and guesses based on some other speculation and guesses, so until you find something that corroborates some of your facts/guesses, I can't really take it seriously.

Edit: The MeeGo figure in that article looked suspiscious so I did a google for Gartner's 1Q12 stats, and Meego didn't even make the charts, included in "Other" at the bottom of the table. He seems to have used the Nokia WP7 figure for MeeGo, then made up another number for WP7 and put it below MeeGo. Bloody agent.
 
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