Microsoft Windows 8 plans leave Nokia hamstrung

lolwtf? Nokia delivers results for MS. Not thinking they get special treatment for WP is just being stupid. I didn't see any other hardware vendor invited to talk at the WP8 unveiling. Pretty much all those phones Samsung sells don't run MS software, and Samsung spend all their ad money on Android.

What does Nokia have that Microsoft wants/ed?

They dont have an OS, they dont have any significant marketshare in the US, their phones are horribly expensive....so what could it be?

Let me help you, but Im not gonna make it too easy for you. :)

Nokia M_ps & N_vigation

See, Microsoft figured out years ago that hardware is worth nothing without proper software. That you must pay a software licence for.

Nokia is just a hardware manufacturer now & I highly doubt it if they get treated like Dell & HP.

Samsung & HTC will always be the preferred partners, as they already have distribution networks everywhere in the world.

Nokia is only now shifting manufacturing to China, so expect a few hiccups along the way.
 
Okay I think it was you that posted links to that site before. It's a total BS click-bait site. That guy quotes figures from "TomiAhonen Consulting" WHICH IS HIMSELF and doesn't give any explanation of how he got it (he even admits in the comments it was a guesstimate). He clearly has an axe to grind against Nokia/MS.

The rest of what you said is just your speculation and guesses based on some other speculation and guesses, so until you find something that corroborates some of your facts/guesses, I can't really take it seriously.

Edit: The MeeGo figure in that article looked suspiscious so I did a google for Gartner's 1Q12 stats, and Meego didn't even make the charts, included in "Other" at the bottom of the table. He seems to have used the Nokia WP7 figure for MeeGo, then made up another number for WP7 and put it below MeeGo. Bloody agent.
Yes it's himself since he does lots of consulting work for the mobile industry. Although it's a guesstimate it is very close to reality, like it or not he was the only analyst that was anywhere close in predicting how Nokia and WP7 would fair, with many other analysts quoting 15-20% marketshare for WP7, only he got it remotely close, I would certainly trust his numbers more than anyone else and he actually goes into much more detail than anyone else.

Him being off by a few dollars or % does not change the fact that the main culprit for losses in the smartphone division is WP7, it had the most expensive marketing push for little to no long term gain, uses non standard, non nokia parts which don't receive the huge discount nokia parts get, It is manufacured in a non nokia factory and the ASP is much lower than the N9 although the specs aren't too disimilar. And of course the Lumia 900 was being given away for free for a while.

Another bit of evidence is that nokia has profit warnings for the next 2 quarters, with the next quarter being even worse in the smartphone unit than the last, surely if symbian or meego was the profit drainer losses should be decreasing since they are winding down both platforms while Lumia is growing (albeit not very fast). Nokia won't reveal what is causing the losses but all evidence points to WP7, having the highest input costs in relation to revenue. There was a diagram posted on mybb somewhere comparing Iphone costs vs Lumia, Iphone had lower costs, much higher sales price and better specs as well, shows you how much of a difference bulk discounts can make.
 
Hey, all companies do this to a degree. Of the products I have on my desk,

- iPad1 has just been EOL'ed by Apple. It won't be getting any more updates. The hardware is clearly capable of it, but no matter.
- My Galaxy Tab is still sitting on Honeycomb, no ICS in sight. I blame Samsung for that, but Google really doesn't care about end users either - it's made absolutely no effort to help expediate the device updates. Yes I could hack it on, but the fact I would have to resort to that proves my point.
- I have an HTC Hero here somewhere that it officially stuck on v1.6 - no update was ever issued in ZA.
- My HTC Titan won't get WP8, but will get most the features with 7.x updates as a consolation prize.

They all suck. They just take the money and run.

Your point being they're all shit. Therefore, I should choose the one platform that still has an upgrade path, even if it is not supported by the hardware manufacturer. Being able to root and install my own rom is an advantage, and Android being that open is why I chose them over Apple
 
Yes it's himself since he does lots of consulting work for the mobile industry
... I would certainly trust his numbers more than anyone else and he actually goes into much more detail than anyone else.

Well I hope people don't pay him for his rubbish - I found they were fabricated and crap in 1 google search. His MeeGo information was absolutely made up.

it had the most expensive marketing push for little to no long term gain, uses non standard, non nokia parts which don't receive the huge discount nokia parts get, It is manufacured in a non nokia factory and the ASP is much lower than the N9 although the specs aren't too disimilar. And of course the Lumia 900 was being given away for free for a while.

Wow you're really not big on facts, are you? Must be the sites you read
1. The parts that Nokia uses aren't that expensive because MS standardised on a chipset and negotiated bulk discounts on behalf of the manufacturers. This was touted as a plus at the WP launch ages ago
2. Compal, who does the Lumia, does a bunch of other Nokia phones, incl their low-end ones
3. It was never given away for free, that was a contract price, they still paid the rest.

Another bit of evidence is that nokia has profit warnings for the next 2 quarters, with the next quarter being even worse in the smartphone unit than the last, surely if symbian or meego was the profit drainer losses should be decreasing since they are winding down both platforms while Lumia is growing

Yes, that's the plan - unload Symbian and Meego to get back to profitability. This is evidence of Lumia being a profit driver, not loss driver. You have it all wrong.

Nokia won't reveal what is causing the losses but all evidence points to WP7

Actually, they DO reveal what's causing the losses. Elop tells investors in earnings calls. Hint: It's not Lumia.
 
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What does Nokia have that Microsoft wants/ed?

Do you pay attention to what's happening in the mobile industry? Nokia is the only one shifting volume in WP7 devices.

Nokia M_ps & N_vigation

That, and marketing expertise, market reach, distribution channels, software dev expertise (their WP7 value-add apps are the best of all the OEMs)

Samsung & HTC will always be the preferred partners, as they already have distribution networks everywhere in the world.

Yeah... because those 2 companies have done SOOOO well in promoting WP7. </sarcasm>

Nokia is only now shifting manufacturing to China, so expect a few hiccups along the way.

As I mentioned to that other guy, they've used China as a manufacturer for some of their devices for a long time.
 
Do you pay attention to what's happening in the mobile industry? Nokia is the only one shifting volume in WP7 devices.

Yes, I do actually.

To illustrate my point that preferred OEM partners (read hardware manufacturers) are not always informed about what Microsoft does, see this : http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/21/acer-is-skeptical-of-surface-tablets/

We were worried that Microsoft might wind up with frenemies in the PC industry after introducing its Surface tablets. There hasn't been a lot of backlash so far, but the Windows 8 tablets clearly rankled some Acer executives -- they're lashing out at their OS partner in a very public fashion. Acer's EMEA senior VP Oliver Ahrens is accusing Microsoft of trying to copy Apple's business model and thinks the Surface line will struggle to get any traction. It could lead to a "defocus" at Microsoft as the software giant forgets the PC builders that got it to the top, he says. Meanwhile, frequently outspoken company founder Stan Shih isn't even convinced that Microsoft is serious about the whole affair. To him, Surface is just an attempt to spur tablet designers into action that will fade away if and when Microsoft deems it a success. It's entirely possible that either executive is right knowing Microsoft's very mixed track record in hardware. Just consider the source before you cast too much doubt of your own: Acer isn't exactly great with tablet market predictions.

I've got a feeling Nokia is gonna find that out, rather sooner than later.
 
That, and marketing expertise, market reach, distribution channels, software dev expertise (their WP7 value-add apps are the best of all the OEMs)

Nokia came to Microsoft with hat in hand, because they screwed up badly. So it's not if they had a choice in the matter, they must now do as they're told.

So, Nokia was not (and still isnt) in a position of strength to dictate the terms with Microsoft. They have now been relegated to an OEM and this is what they'll do for Steve and party. Microsoft might still be nice to them for now, cos they wanted Nokia Navigation and Maps really bad. And now it looks like its Microsoft Navigation and Maps. Mission accomplished.

Now Nokia is trying to conquer the American market, and consumers did give them a chance to proove themselves with the Lumia 800....but will you buy another Nokia if you discover that your phone's OS is not up to scratch? I don't think so.
 
Nokia came to Microsoft with hat in hand, because they screwed up badly. So it's not if they had a choice in the matter, they must now do as they're told.

It was a mutually beneficial relationship. They needed each other. MS didn't reach out to Samsung or HTC, because Nokia had more of what they wanted in the phone side of things - better designers, better ecosystem.

Just because they're a smaller company than Samsung, etc doesn't mean they're any less important in Microsoft's mobile plans. Quite the opposite: because they're smaller and will give WP7 more attention than the big guys, Microsoft has struck up a far closer relationship with them than the big guys.

So far it's working pretty well.
 
Yup, they shouldve gone and made Android Phones long ago......Android is what killed them and Symbian in the 1st place, the only way to save them is to make decent spec phones to compete with HTC's one X and S3 for now just to gain some market....Android is your friend! :P
 
Yup, they shouldve gone and made Android Phones long ago......Android is what killed them and Symbian in the 1st place, the only way to save them is to make decent spec phones to compete with HTC's one X and S3 for now just to gain some market....Android is your friend! :P

Ouch.. I think the success of the S3 proves Nokia was right to stay away from Android. Not even Apple can compete with that phone right now. Not a race you want to be an underdog in!
 
Well I hope people don't pay him for his rubbish - I found they were fabricated and crap in 1 google search. His MeeGo information was absolutely made up.
I doubt big companies would pay for his predictions if they turned out to be false. He definitely would not still be an analyst if he made up his numbers. The fact that he doesn't post his method of reaching those numbers does not automatically make them false and trying to discredit him based on nothing to prove your point is not helping.


Wow you're really not big on facts, are you? Must be the sites you read
1. The parts that Nokia uses aren't that expensive because MS standardised on a chipset and negotiated bulk discounts on behalf of the manufacturers. This was touted as a plus at the WP launch ages ago
2. Compal, who does the Lumia, does a bunch of other Nokia phones, incl their low-end ones
3. It was never given away for free, that was a contract price, they still paid the rest.
As I said see the iphone vs lumia cost diagram and it becomes obvious that whatever bulk discount MS did secure wasn't very good and would not match the discount nokia could get using their own suppliers. Free or not, however you view it, they took a $100 hit, which is quite significant


Yes, that's the plan - unload Symbian and Meego to get back to profitability. This is evidence of Lumia being a profit driver, not loss driver. You have it all wrong.
No this is evidence of their strategy, no evidence at all of Lumia profitability. Especially since they have a MS puppet at the helm


Actually, they DO reveal what's causing the losses. Elop tells investors in earnings calls. Hint: It's not Lumia.
I wouldn't trust a word coming out of Elop, used to work at MS and after moving to Nokia scraps all their plans and switches to a MS OS. Not suspicious at all.
 
Yeah, I wouldnt be interested in a nokia phone with andriod on it.

Well, I would love to have a Android Lumia 900. Love the look of that phone, pity the OS on it did not have dyslexics in mind when they made it.
 
I doubt big companies would pay for his predictions if they turned out to be false. He definitely would not still be an analyst if he made up his numbers. The fact that he doesn't post his method of reaching those numbers does not automatically make them false and trying to discredit him based on nothing to prove your point is not helping..

There's a sucker born every minute. That's why people pay for his predictions. That MeeGo figure is plain wrong. Seriously. Look it up. Find corroborating evidence and I'll apologize and move on.

As I said see the iphone vs lumia cost diagram and it becomes obvious that whatever bulk discount MS did secure wasn't very good and would not match the discount nokia could get using their own suppliers. Free or not, however you view it, they took a $100 hit, which is quite significant

Obvious to you, maybe. Because of .. what again? You didn't post a reference? The $100 hit was only for a week or two while they pushed an update out. Not as big a deal as you make out. Right now, Nokia can't make Lumias fast enough because of the demand.

I wouldn't trust a word coming out of Elop, used to work at MS and after moving to Nokia scraps all their plans and switches to a MS OS. Not suspicious at all.

I'll let you into a little piece of information that might help you in the future - when CEOs stand up in keynotes, presentations, etc, they can BS and spin yarns all they want. In earnings calls, they have to tell the truth. Which is why I specifically mentioned it was an earnings call. You can stretch the truth and blow smoke up journalists asses all you want, they'll probably mis-report it anyway. But to lie about your company's financial position to shareholders is against the law.

So you can have fun with all the conspiracy theories you want, but the facts are out there if you want to look at them objectively.
 
There's a sucker born every minute. That's why people pay for his predictions. That MeeGo figure is plain wrong. Seriously. Look it up. Find corroborating evidence and I'll apologize and move on.
People pay because he's the only one that was even remotely accurate in his predictions, but please point me to an analyst with better numbers then.

Obvious to you, maybe. Because of .. what again? You didn't post a reference? The $100 hit was only for a week or two while they pushed an update out. Not as big a deal as you make out. Right now, Nokia can't make Lumias fast enough because of the demand.
here you go:
http://mynokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/wsj.jpg


I'll let you into a little piece of information that might help you in the future - when CEOs stand up in keynotes, presentations, etc, they can BS and spin yarns all they want. In earnings calls, they have to tell the truth. Which is why I specifically mentioned it was an earnings call. You can stretch the truth and blow smoke up journalists asses all you want, they'll probably mis-report it anyway. But to lie about your company's financial position to shareholders is against the law.

So you can have fun with all the conspiracy theories you want, but the facts are out there if you want to look at them objectively.
CEO's also have a fiduciary duty towards their shareholders, while it is plainly obvious that Elop is in MS's back pocket. He should be in jail already, I don't think anyone has destroyed a company that fast before
 
People pay because he's the only one that was even remotely accurate in his predictions, but please point me to an analyst with better numbers then.

By your logic, because many, many, many more people pay for Gartner, etc reports, they must be much, much, more accurate.


That link serves to illustrate the markup disparity more than component cost - not much difference in component cost, actually - kind of goes against the point you were making. In fact, it's surprising that Apple's costs arent cheaper - they're paying the same cost for the same camera (both devices use the same camera sensor iirc)

I don't think anyone has destroyed a company that fast before

Clearly you weren't conscious during the recent financial crisis when all those banks were mismanged out of business in the course of a few weeks. But go on repeating the random brain farts from that blog, it's easy fodder!
 
Nokia execs and senior tech people have said on several occasions that they seriously considered Android and specifically rejected it. The reasons are obvious to anyone who follows the industry:

It would instantly switch Nokia to being a hardware-focused company with little or no ability to differentiate itself in the eco-system and software. There is just no way a company with Europe-based R&D and design cost structures can compete price-wise with Samsung, one of the planet's premier volume electronics manufacturers, with a significant and increasing degree of vertical integration. Put bluntly, without a differentiator over which it has some influence, Nokia would be forced to become just another box shifter, and it simply cannot match Samsung in churning out cost-competititve hardware. Nokia has chosen specifically not to compete with Far Eastern manufacturers, but rather to leverage FE manufacturing and spend a lot more energy on software, eco-system & design aspects and also the carrier and channel relationships that are almost as important in driving volume into the market.

Samsung, on the other hand, is software-agnostic. It'll go with whatever sells or has half a chance of selling. So far in the mobile and tablet space, it cares does little more than pay lip service to ecosystems and OS platforms, mainly because that's what their customers (mainly not end-users) and the Press want to hear. Samsung makes its money by manufacturing and shifting hardware in volume. Period. And it does this superbly well and with great success, with all the attendant paybacks in efficiencies of scale, volume, etc.

Please don't think I'm somehow denigrating Samsung or think that this business approach is in any way less worthy. It's a perfectly valid model and the market needs companies that do it well - and Samsung do it superbly well. Hats off to them. They can certainly out-manufacture Nokia or almost anyone else on earth, at a lower price and with outstanding quality. We need companies like Samsung, and long may they live.

But it's not Nokia's approach - and neither can it be. They simply cannot choose to be a volume box shifter with zero-differentiation software like Android, and expect to survive let alone thrive when Samsung can do it faster, cheaper and in greater volume than just about anyone else. So the New Nokia has to look into the 'softer' side, and make its bets there. It also means they can draw on traditional European (and American strengths) in design, software and 'value add' rather than on low-cost manufacturing. Yes, it's true that Nokia rode a wave in first cellphone/mobile proliferation, and shifted more handsets than anyone else on the planet. Those days are over - once Samsung and others got serious and scaled up volume, handset prices dropped and margins for all but two or three manufacturers evaporated. When you're hardware-focused, volume is everything, and you do whatever it take to shift another million boxes. That's not a bad thing - it's a good thing - but it's different from the approach of others who choose to look at the 'softer' side, ie design, IP, software, "eco-systems" (I detest the buzzword), and so on.

Had Nokia "done the sensible thing and chosen Android" it would have delivered the company and its future into Samsung's hands. Within 24 months it would be a gaunt shadow of its former self - all the design, software and value-add people would have melted away - and within three years it would collapse into irrelevance and fold because Samsung (and others) can do it faster and cheaper. It would have been a monumental strategic blunder.

So why not do both WP and Android? Get the volume with Android, and use the cash and time to build WP at the smartphone/value-add end? We can be certain this was discussed and analysed to death inside Nokia. In the end they decided to not be a company that hedges its bets and goes with the flow/LCD, but to resolutely focus on building something for the longer term. That requires dedication, focus, and ... commitment. Not everyone might agree with their decision, but we can all admire the fact that they made a clear decision and committed everything. It's a big and risky bet, and it can only succeed if the company isn't also distracted by the short-term money that would come from an Android volume-spurt, because that would pull them back into the direction they can never survive long-term: another generic Android box-shifter.
 
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