Mkhize faces tender scandal

R13...

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
39,196
Not that I support Cosmik in the slightest, but right wingers defending murderers comment needs a bit of context in my opinion. Which murderer(s) are you referring to with that?
Wouter Basson is the most recent.
 

ToxicBunny

Oi! Leave me out of this...
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
98,786
Wouter Basson is the most recent.

I was expecting that response to be honest, but the problem with that is that he has never been convicted of murder, no court has found such, and the NPA have never charged him with that.

He very likely breached all sorts of professional and ethical codes of conduct whilst doing the things he did for the Apartheid government, but he has never formally been charged with murder/attempted murder/accessory or anything of the sort.

**EDIT**
I actually take that back, he was charged way back in the day, but the case was dismissed and Wouter Basson was acquitted.
 

R13...

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
39,196
I was expecting that response to be honest, but the problem with that is that he has never been convicted of murder, no court has found such, and the NPA have never charged him with that.

He very likely breached all sorts of professional and ethical codes of conduct whilst doing the things he did for the Apartheid government, but he has never formally been charged with murder/attempted murder/accessory or anything of the sort.

**EDIT**
I actually take that back, he was charged way back in the day, but the case was dismissed and Wouter Basson was acquitted.
He got charged with conspiracy which is just as bad but because he couldn't be tied directly conspiracy was all they could bring. He probably did murder or help murder a lot of people for the apartheid state. But his work was highly secret.

The point though is that the forum right wingers set a very high bar when a white person is accused of anything. **** they'll even defend when there's evidence with stuff like but maybe he meant something else. But when a person not of the right wing is accused, the bar is lower than limbo.
 

ToxicBunny

Oi! Leave me out of this...
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
98,786
He got charged with conspiracy which is just as bad but because he couldn't be tied directly conspiracy was all they could bring. He probably did murder or help murder a lot of people for the apartheid state. But his work was highly secret.

The point though is that the forum right wingers set a very high bar when a white person is accused of anything. **** they'll even defend when there's evidence with stuff like but maybe he meant something else. But when a person not of the right wing is accused, the bar is lower than limbo.

The problem with that line of thinking (in your first line) is that many many people in the Apartheid era murdered or helped murder a lot of people for the Apartheid state and for the "resistance movements"... So where do you draw the line?

And yes on the logic of differing bars I will generally agree with you, and it happens across the spectrum unfortunately, not just the forum right wingers.
 

surface

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
17,075
Let us call it even guys. There were some naughty people back then and there are some naughty people now.

As the great man once said 'Fine people on both sides'
 

Deandbn

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
286
Mkhize faces tender scandal

South African Health Minister Zweli Mkhize, once considered a possible successor to President Cyril Ramaphosa, is facing pressure to stand down after being linked to a tendering scandal. [Bloomberg]

Mkhize should be facing a lot more than a tender scandal..
Taking R150 million.. Admitting it by offering to return it.. I mean really.. And not even a glimmer of embarrassment (skaam)..
And still on full pay with no resignation.. (or arrest)
But hey, maybe I'm just old fashioned..
 

R13...

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
39,196
The problem with that line of thinking (in your first line) is that many many people in the Apartheid era murdered or helped murder a lot of people for the Apartheid state and for the "resistance movements"... So where do you draw the line?
Most of the point is they lack self awareness and are terrible double thinkers. Remember the recurring rhetoric that Zuma is a rapist, Mandela a civilian bombing terrorist, etc? It works the same way.
 

yebocan

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
12,460
Mkhize should be facing a lot more than a tender scandal..
Taking R150 million.. Admitting it by offering to return it.. I mean really.. And not even a glimmer of embarrassment (skaam)..
And still on full pay with no resignation.. (or arrest)
But hey, maybe I'm just old fashioned..
welcome to politics , geen skaamte required-- would not be outside the realm of political calculation ... him being the catalyst for that cabinet reduction and reshuffle... I will always maintain, we just looking in...politics is a sordid realm by design, you venture in there at your own peril.
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
15,291
Wouter Basson is the most recent.

Yeah, thankfully SA got rid of its nuclear weapons before the ANC took over because right after they did, they sold SA's other WMD's, bio and chemical weapons to Gadhafi. And then spent over 20 years trying to convict Wouter Basson...
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
15,291
He got charged with conspiracy which is just as bad but because he couldn't be tied directly conspiracy was all they could bring. He probably did murder or help murder a lot of people for the apartheid state. But his work was highly secret.

The point though is that the forum right wingers set a very high bar when a white person is accused of anything. **** they'll even defend when there's evidence with stuff like but maybe he meant something else. But when a person not of the right wing is accused, the bar is lower than limbo.

I suggest you have a look at the ANC camps if you really want to moralise about murder, rape and torture and blame right wingers for all the ills of society...

You can look at their atrocities within the country too. They far outnumber the apartheid states killings.
 

R13...

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
39,196
I suggest you have a look at the ANC camps if you really want to moralise about murder, rape and torture and blame right wingers for all the ills of society...

You can look at their atrocities within the country too. They far outnumber the apartheid states killings.
Engaging in a spot of whataboutism, eh Cosm?
 

ToxicBunny

Oi! Leave me out of this...
Joined
Apr 8, 2006
Messages
98,786
Most of the point is they lack self awareness and are terrible double thinkers. Remember the recurring rhetoric that Zuma is a rapist, Mandela a civilian bombing terrorist, etc? It works the same way.

All sides are guilty of that as well really.

One mans Freedom fighter is another mans Terrorist at the end of the day. Its all about the personal context that something is viewed through.
 

surface

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
17,075
Most of the point is they lack self awareness and are terrible double thinkers. Remember the recurring rhetoric that Zuma is a rapist, Mandela a civilian bombing terrorist, etc? It works the same way.
There are some fine people on both sides. You killed millions, I killed one - we both are murderers. You couldn't get job because of apartheid and I can't because of BEE so BEE is same as apartheid. Move on etc..
 

Benedict A55h0le

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
1,723
There are some fine people on both sides. You killed millions, I killed one - we both are murderers. You couldn't get job because of apartheid and I can't because of BEE so BEE is same as apartheid. Move on etc..
So you say we must fight against and condemn apartheid, but if the shoe is on the other foot its ok to just ignore and move on.
 

ShaunSA

Derailment Squad
Joined
Sep 7, 2005
Messages
35,704
Singing his praises in the past doesn't mean they can't call for his head when he's found to be less than honest. Way less. Think of it this way, you fall in love with a girl/boy. You have some good times, but after you put out, it turns out he's a lying scumbag who lied to get in your pants. You may have loved him/her, but you still kick his ass to touch.

The right wingers on the forum don't grasp that concept. They think "supporting" a person at point in time means you're BFFs. It doesn't work that way, maybe in right wing circles it does.

I think it was pretty clear from the start he was a scumbag.... some just never saw it

And if you want to point fingers at the right wingers you lot on the left are just as guilty of the same reasoning
 

Cosmik Debris

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Messages
15,291
Most of the point is they lack self awareness and are terrible double thinkers. Remember the recurring rhetoric that Zuma is a rapist, Mandela a civilian bombing terrorist, etc? It works the same way.

Want some proof for that?

MANDELA CHARGE SHEET

(a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminium powder and a ton of black powder);

(b) The art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic;

(ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);

(iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;

(iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when involving the aforesaid Republic;

(v) Acts of participation in a violent revolution in the aforesaid Republic, whereby the accused, injured, damaged, destroyed, rendered useless or unserviceable, put out of action, obstructed, with or endangered:

(a) the health or safety of the public;

(b) the maintenance of law and order;

(c) the supply and distribution of light, power or fuel;

(d) postal, telephone or telegraph installations;

(e) the free movement of traffic on land; and

(f) the property, movable or immovable, of other persons or of the state.

Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment.

The fact is that even Amnesty International refused to take on Nelson Mandela’s case because they asserted that he was no political prisoner but had committed numerous violent crimes and had had a fair trial and a reasonable sentence.

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. He had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

South African President P.W. Botha had, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. This Mandela refused to do.
 
Top