Mosque for [NY WTC] Ground Zero?

[Nerfherder]

I think that a Mosque is the wrong thing to build there... not because I think that Islam is responsible for 911 but because I think that a lot of other people do think that.

It will create animosity and some ******** will burn it down.

Perhaps a center for tolerance or one of those things should be built... like a Museum that shows the history of the conflict or something

 

[w1z4rd]

And lets not forget the US Marines who liberated the Phillipines which is now probably the largest Muslim country in the world. No shoving Christianity down their throats.

Incorrect. Only the South (Island) of Manila is Muslim. Its majority Christian. Catholic Christian.

Religion
Main article: Religion in the Philippines
More than 90% of the population are Christians: about 80% belong to the Roman Catholic Church while 10% belong to other Christian denominations, such as the Philippine Independent Church, Iglesia ni Cristo, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Seventh-day Adventist Church, United Church of Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Orthodox Church.[126] The Philippines is one of two predominantly Roman Catholic countries in Asia, the other being East Timor.
Between 5% to 10% of the population are Muslim,

I just got back from there

 

[PeterCH]

Well, he did. He said it was a war against "radical" Islam. Why not a war against radicals? Or terrorists in general? By bringing Islam into it he (possibly inadvertently) turned the whole business into Us vs Them with God-fearing Christians like himself on one side, and Muslims either being radicals or sympathetic to radicals on the other side.

And by looking at some of the responses in this thread, you can see exactly how effective THAT bit of bullshíte was.

Actually many of us - eg myself were staunchly anti invasion of Iraq and neocon manipulation. However I saw through it after the debacle which was the bombing of Serbia/Kosovo by NATO (this time European driven affair). However, I saw the reasons behind the invasion - having actually lived as an oppressed person before - unlike some who were white, privileged and still support apartheid. GWB was fed BS by the guys who rule Iraq right now. He was told that once Saddam Hussein was defeated the Iraqis would do what the Koreans, Japanese and Eastern Europeans did and accept Western Democracy with open arms - which IMO is still the best form of government. GWB's ideals were noble but war is never a recourse in such matters. At the end the Americans were suprised as the Iraqis turned on each other instead of either becoming a new Kuwait or a fully democratic ME nation.

I still support the Republican Party because they have anti-Soviet views with which I fully agree.

 

[grayston]

The people of Japan, South Korea, West and then East Germany, Taiwan, Georgia, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, various ex-Soviet Republics (some mentioned already), etc. all wanted democracy and these are the people who thank America.

Don't tell ME. Tell the towelheads.

 

[PeterCH]

Don't tell ME. Tell the towelheads.

I'm telling you because you're opposed to what GWB did.

 

[Frankie]

Aqua claims to be of Jewish descent.

Good genes gone bad, or taqiyya ?

 

[d0b33]

I understand why you say what you do. You are a product of your upbringing.

Which one is that? Anglican? yeah it sucked.

 

[PeterCH]

Good genes gone bad, or taqiyya ?

LOL, you asked me this before. I'm just correcting the other guy. I couldn't care less who is who. Everyone has a right to an opinion.

 

[w1z4rd]

Which one is that? Anglican? yeah it sucked.

Sure

Ganna answer my other question? Was an edit so you might not have seen it.

 

[d0b33]

The people of Japan, South Korea, West and then East Germany, Taiwan, Georgia, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, various ex-Soviet Republics (some mentioned already), etc. all wanted democracy and these are the people who thank America. My Japanese friends still say that if it weren't for Hiroshima they'd be a North Korea now.

Give credit where credit is due... the Russians, East Germans, Polish put an end to Comminism themselves, the Yanks were even surprised when the Berlin wall fell, Communism sucked so hard it died, Yanks like to take credit but they played a very minor role if any.

 

[PeterCH]

Give credit where credit is due... the Russians, East Germans, Polish put an end to Comminism themselves, the Yanks were even surprised when the Berlin wall fell, Communism sucked so hard it died, Yanks like to take credit but they played a very minor role if any.

I have to disagree. The Russians were so indoctrinated that only a handful of dissidents were active - and what could they do. Guys like Vladimir Bukovsky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Bukovsky

The East Germans were collaborating heavily with the Stasi. The Poles and Czechs, Hungarians etc had labour union movements and popular support but the Soviets could have sent a few tanks in and ended those problems.
The fact is that Ronald Reagan together with a lot of open and behind the scenes diplomacy from John Paul II put Communism out of its misery - they drew Gorbachev out who only wanted economic liberalisation (what China has done) and not political liberalisation. The US managed to bankrupt the Soviet Union and the liberalisation Gorbachev started gained so much ground that ultimately the whole thing fell apart. It was unsustainable to hold protection over the Warsaw Pact countries and giving them up also meant that Gorbachev hoped to consolidate his power to salvage the USSR proper. The whole thing of course collapsed. I remember the news report from 1989 when Vladimir Karpov, a KGB colonel spoke to the BBC and said that the way things were going - the USSR was not sustainable.

It's a pity that John Paul II never received a Nobel Peace Prize for an achievement of the century - help bring down the USSR. Ultimately the blacks in SA have those people to thank for their freedom because with a strong SU the West would have supported the NP here - no matter what.

 

[d0b33]

I have to disagree. The Russians were so indoctrinated that only a handful of dissidents were active - and what could they do. Guys like Vladimir Bukovsky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Bukovsky

The East Germans were collaborating heavily with the Stasi. The Poles and Czechs, Hungarians etc had labour union movements and popular support but the Soviets could have sent a few tanks in and ended those problems.
The fact is that Ronald Reagan together with a lot of open and behind the scenes diplomacy from John Paul II put Communism out of its misery - they drew Gorbachev out who only wanted economic liberalisation (what China has done) and not political liberalisation. The US managed to bankrupt the Soviet Union and the liberalisation Gorbachev started gained so much ground that ultimately the whole thing fell apart. It was unsustainable to hold protection over the Warsaw Pact countries and giving them up also meant that Gorbachev hoped to consolidate his power to salvage the USSR proper. The whole thing of course collapsed. I remember the news report from 1989 when Vladimir Karpov, a KGB colonel spoke to the BBC and said that the way things were going - the USSR was not sustainable.

It's a pity that John Paul II never received a Nobel Peace Prize for an achievement of the century - help bring down the USSR. Ultimately the blacks in SA have those people to thank for their freedom because with a strong SU the West would have supported the NP here - no matter what.

Still dont see a strong coloration here, the pope is not the US and the Polish had the solidarity movement which they are proud of.

 

[zippy]

Well, he did. He said it was a war against "radical" Islam. Why not a war against radicals? Or terrorists in general? By bringing Islam into it he (possibly inadvertently) turned the whole business into Us vs Them with God-fearing Christians like himself on one side, and Muslims either being radicals or sympathetic to radicals on the other side.

And by looking at some of the responses in this thread, you can see exactly how effective THAT bit of bullshíte was.

The American's did not bring Islam into it. Al Quada did. The Americans have been trying get Islam out of it. Seriously, if they wanted a war against Islam do you think they would tolerate Islam in the US ? If America was at war with Islam, then Islam would be outlawed there. Look back to WWII when they where at war with Japan and Germany. Japanese and Germans in the US had a really rough time.

Radical Muslims want to give the impression that America has declared war on Islam because that is in their interest. A lot of people, including you, have fallen for their bull****e

The US is probably the most tolerant country towards Islam outside of any Islamic country and probably more tolerant of the different Muslim factions than in some Islamic countries. Much more so than European countries who like to take a dig at the Americans.

 

[d0b33]

The American's did not bring Islam into it. Al Quada did. The Americans have been trying get Islam out of it. Seriously, if they wanted a war against Islam do you think they would tolerate Islam in the US ? If America was at war with Islam, then Islam would be outlawed there. Look back to WWII when they where at war with Japan and Germany. Japanese and Germans in the US had a really rough time.

Radical Muslims want to give the impression that America has declared war on Islam because that is in their interest. A lot of people, including you, have fallen for their bull****e

The US is probably the most tolerant country towards Islam outside of any Islamic country and probably more tolerant of the different Muslim factions than in some Islamic countries. Much more so than European countries who like to take a dig at the Americans.

Yes true, the first amendment assures this for all religions... does not stop groups like AIPAC and recently discovered "the family" from carrying out religious agendas abroad though.

 

[Lightscribe]

For one practical reason I'm against it, the noisy minaret. You'd have a huge loud speaker booming out every day in the heart of a bunch of office blocks and businesses. You can hear these things from over 20 kilometres away. Not sure I'd want that while I'm trying to work!

I have always lived near and loved the sound of the Durban Mosque. The Qur'an has in my opinion, a far better worldview of the environment and science, than does the Bible.

Sorry you wrong simply put

The scholars may agree that there is peace amongst those "of the book". The average joe in all three, view each other with animosity or as "separate".

Just like Muslims expect the world to be blind, to the fact that the terrorists that are muslim, do represent all Muslims, until all Muslims are willing to for instance, stop voting for Hamas, stop acting as human shields, stop collecting money through bogus charities in order to support terrorist activities, stop the "democratic" takeover of countries...etc.

Like the culture of violence and criminality in SA, the support for Muslim terrorists, by all sectors of Muslim society, is a deeply ingrained culture. Watch Al-Jazeera some.

 

[Lightscribe]

The people of Japan, South Korea, West and then East Germany, Taiwan, Georgia, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, various ex-Soviet Republics (some mentioned already), etc. all wanted democracy and these are the people who thank America. My Japanese friends still say that if it weren't for Hiroshima they'd be a North Korea now.
Let's not forget the people of Nazi occupied Western Europe and the people liberated from Japanese occupation who ultimately won their independence.

Of course some apartheid supporters will disagree.

As for forcing Christianity onto other people, that has never been a missive of the US government. Care to cite a US .gov site where it's been the mission of the US foreign policy to enforce Christianity. They really Chritianised Japan and Taiwan.

And lets not forget the US Marines who liberated the Phillipines which is now probably the largest Muslim country in the world. No shoving Christianity down their throats.

A documentary on Al-Jazeera has filmed how the US army has units that are psyched up with Christian rhetoric and sent out in Afghanistan with bibles to hand out and then push Christianity onto the local population. The US army tried to downplay the whole behind the scenes operation, by claiming they were merely letting people make up their own minds...Ever seen those screaming, fire and brimstone, swooning maniacs at some nutcase churches? That's exactly what the "preacher" officer and "congregation" soldiers looked like...

That's why I stopped going to church at 6. Thanks for nothing NG kerk.

 

[grayston]

The American's did not bring Islam into it. Al Quada did. The Americans have been trying get Islam out of it. Seriously, if they wanted a war against Islam do you think they would tolerate Islam in the US ? If America was at war with Islam, then Islam would be outlawed there. Look back to WWII when they where at war with Japan and Germany. Japanese and Germans in the US had a really rough time.

Radical Muslims want to give the impression that America has declared war on Islam because that is in their interest. A lot of people, including you, have fallen for their bull****e

The US is probably the most tolerant country towards Islam outside of any Islamic country and probably more tolerant of the different Muslim factions than in some Islamic countries. Much more so than European countries who like to take a dig at the Americans.

Sure.

Either way - so what? Muslims are still feeling the short end of the stick thanks to the War on "Terror" and only a tiny minority are terrorists. Stick on mosque on Ground Zero and a lot of harm is repaired as well as taking the wind out of the anti-American terrorists' sails.

Anyway. Done repeating myself now.

 

[d0b33]

Sure.

Either way - so what? Muslims are still feeling the short end of the stick thanks to the War on "Terror" and only a tiny minority are terrorists. Stick on mosque on Ground Zero and a lot of harm is repaired as well as taking the wind out of the anti-American terrorists' sails.

Anyway. Done repeating myself now.

A Mosque wont repair the damage, with colonial era policies in the Middle East there will always be attacks regardless... in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Mosques themselves are targeted by extremists or whatever faction they claim.

 

[grayston]

A Mosque wont repair the damage

Hey, democracy in SA didn't repair the damage of Apartheid in one go either. Hell of a lot more effective than no democracy though. The idea is to at least take the first step.


(Just an example chaps, just an example. I know Muslim extremism isn't the same as Apartheid.)

 

[d0b33]

Hey, democracy in SA didn't repair the damage of Apartheid in one go either. Hell of a lot more effective than no democracy though. The idea is to at least take the first step.


(Just an example chaps, just an example. I know Muslim extremism isn't the same as Apartheid.)

The steps don't need to be made in the US mate, US Muslims are mostly happy there but not happy with what happens abroad, it's the policies abroad that are not in touch with the reality on the ground causing problems.

Things like Gitmo etc, is what needs to be changed.