Muslim extremism. Do they know something we don't?

JHatman

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I've been thinking a lot about the Muslim extremists and their fight against the West, especially the USA. America has been desperately trying to export this thing we call Democracy for years now. They lied to the entire world, started a war in Iraq based on false information, false and doctored satellite scans. Why? Democracy. Bush went on and on about a democratic and free Iraq. But how free is democracy? What is democracy according to the great US of A.

Any of you from the US know the patriot act has allowed the US a free-for-all on its citizens, to spy on every single citizen, tapping your cellphone and email conversations, monitoring you're every movement with CCTV. They have dozens of satellites monitoring movements of vehicles and individuals.

If you are a non-white person, the police have full freedom to interrogate you including taking your personal details, recent whereabouts and if you don't comply they will arrest you.

Even Russia has voiced strong opposition of America's defence program in Europe. I'm not anti-American or anti Muslim but I would like to start a serious discussion on just what these extremists see that perhaps we don't? Are they fighting an evil repressive giant in the making or not?
 
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Would you admit that the USA is more successful than any Islamic state? Even with all the suppression that it does to it's own citizens, it still has more to offer it's citizens that any Islamic state has to offer.

There was an old cold war story, about how people in the communist world where always trying to get to the western world in large numbers, but the reverse was not true, in that people (any class) from the western world, where flocking to join the communist world. In fact, the only westerners that did this, were the "traitors" and spies, the common folk did not see the communist world as acceptable place to live.

The same is true today, Islamic's flock to the west, because of the freedom the west provides, both in personal freedom and the ability to better oneself. If this was not true, then we would find migration in the other way, which we don't. This IS a key indicator that the western or USA way of doing life is more appealing that the Islamic way.

On the "totalitarian state in the making", why go looking for spooks, when most, if not all, Islamic states are by default totalitarian states. The only difference, is that they, the Islamic states, generally do not have much high tech, to do this with, and usually rely on human Intel, to do their monitoring of "trouble makers", you know nosy neighbors and people who have grudges against others.

The evil giant is alive and running wild in the world today, and it's not the USA or the west. Would you expect to have a legal trail that you could follow of a wire tapping of your personal phone in the USA or an Islamic state? Could you expect to be able to contest such an action by the state, in the USA or in an Islamic state? Could you expect to have human treatment if you are arrested in the USA, could you expect the same in an Islamic state?

Yes, the USA does spy on it's citizens, it does do all these bad things, but generally, it's on folk who go against the accept way of the state. And there are agreed methods to do these bad things. If the majority of the USA disagreed with these methods, they would change fast.
 
The issues are much trickier than a debate of "which state is more oppressive?" would suggest. Clearly (as the movement of individuals from totalitarian to democratic states would suggest) capitalist democracies like the US do not rely so much on direct, brutal force (although they still rely on it to some degree, of course) and so for most citizens the perception is that such societies are more "free". On those grounds the cold war is over, the debate has been won, the US is the spiritual world leader it imagines itself to be, etc., etc.

However, I agree with JHatman that we are suckers if we buy into the "terrorism" language that invites us to imagine that other people do things for inexplicable "evil" reasons, and discourages us from trying to understand the genuine reasons that motivate all political activity, however bizarre it may seem from "the other side". I agree that just as yesterday's "terrorists" are today's "freedom fighters" or whatever, it's entirely possible that Muslim extremists may one day be written about as some of the last, desperate resistance against the incredibly powerful and persuasive system of political control that we call "democracy".

An important key to understanding the power of capitalist democracy as a system of political control is the phrase, "the manufacture of consent". Capitalist democracies do not rely so much on overt force (the violence of batons and torture and so on) because they rely on PRODUCING the desire to conform and obey in citizens. Every child in a Western democracy is bombarded from infancy with stuff that we think of as "normal life" but other forms of society would regard as "propaganda": everything from parents' toy choices to the educational curriculum to the endless TV advertising to the popular music and so on and so on, all work to produce adults who WANT to spend their entire lives working to generate profits for their economic superiors. In other societies a slave knows s/he is a slave, because the desire is to escape from the work. In capitalist democracies, a slave imagines s/he is "free" because s/he "chooses" to pursue the big-screen TV's and other crap that signifies "the good life" in a consumerist society: it is basically a case of cleverly replacing sticks with carrots until the slaves are mostly content. When they object (as the poorer parts of society in capitalist democracies tend to do, e.g. black Americans) then the sticks come out (e.g. prison).

This is still a vast over-simplification, but the point is that we are used to thinking in terms of "my free, independent choices are either constrained by violence, or they're not", which clearly points to the US as vastly superior to a religious Islamic state. However, there is a sense in which the most extreme form of violence is to mess with the "free will" itself; to groom citizens into creatures who desire nothing more than to stuff their living rooms with plastic toys and fantasize about better sex or idealized romantic relationships, so that the genuinely social "political" activities that are part of real, fully human living fade into the background and cease to be important. Who is the more seriously abused: the child who hates and fears his abusive parent, or the child who loves to be sodomized by the parent who has carefully raised the child to desire abuse? When you look at it in those terms, which is the worse society: the "totalitarian" society where the citizens are aware of the state's imposition into every aspect of their lives...or the capitalist "democracy" where the citizens experience themselves as being "free", even as they get up every day to perform meaningless work for the benefit of wealthy elites, just as their medieval ancestors did?

In the end, the issue of distress (how "unhappy" citizens are about their political superiors) is only one issue among many. The character of "Reagan" in the film "The Matrix" is a nice metaphor for this thing of happiness versus freedom: he discovered that genuine freedom was frightening and uncomfortable (because it involved AWARENESS of state violence and the poverty of real human freedoms), so asked to become a slave again in order to feel happy. In fact the whole idea of "The Matrix" is a pretty good metaphor for capitalist democracy: a citizen's life energy is exploited not because the citizen fears the state's violence and power; but because the state has so effectively imposed itself upon the citizen's perceptions and desires that the citizen is not even free to experience the lack of freedom. As every advertising professional knows, desire itself can be produced and manipulated, and capitalism paired with democracy is the perfect union of unrestrained power-seeking (capitalism) with a politics of popular desire (democracy), allowing the powerful to become endlessly more so, simply by directing their power at public perception.

This is not to say that our democratic freedoms don't count: I greatly appreciate the fact that I can post what I am posting now, whereas in a totalitarian state, if I pointed out that elders were manufacturing the desire to worship Allah (or whatever) in children then I could have my tongue chopped out or teeth kicked in or whatever. All I am saying is that there are pros and cons and that JHatman is right to question the simplistic "we good, they bad" explanations with which people like to comfort themselves. Perhaps my tongue's being chopped out in a totalitarian state is evidence of my tongue's power to incite real change and significant "freedom" in a society that knows itself to be oppressed, whereas in a capitalist democracy, there is simply no need to chop out my tongue, because it has no power to do anything in a population that is socially/politically/spiritually asleep.
 
Every hero need atleast one villain, if there is no villain you cant call yourself a hero.
after fall of USSR there was no villain, usa was eyeing on china, they was hoping china will replace the ussr but china came up with different approach, (disappointment), so if you cant find one then you have to create one.

The problem starts when usa/west wants you to live the way they live.

Some bow down & some don't.
 
I have a theory. As a muslim we have been schooled in a very distinct way. The Quraan has thought us to open our minds to the agendas of the world. Theres nothing evil about the US. Its those that run it, their intentions. Zionism is real. A new world order is coming. The Muslims will be immune to it (i hope). Beware the flute of the media. Do not bow down to it. For decades they have portrayed Muslims and arabs in a bad light. They know why. We know why. Its not Islams fight against Zionism, it should be the worlds... until its to late.
 
I've been thinking a lot about the Muslim extremists and their fight against the West, especially the USA. America has been desperately trying to export this thing we call Democracy for years now. They lied to the entire world, started a war in Iraq based on false information, false and doctored satellite scans. Why? Democracy. Bush went on and on about a democratic and free Iraq. But how free is democracy? What is democracy according to the great US of A.

First off I am glad to see that there are others out there who are actually taking the time to think about the USA/West and its affect on the world.

I will however, say that the US is just the flag bearer of an idealogy that many in the world consider freedom. Western ways life promotes, as simon_irl pointed out, consumarism, materialism to name but a few. There is an ever degrading moral fabric that western culture promotes. Eg. Gone are the days when adultry/casual sex was frowned upon - in todays time imo its actaully encouraged!!!

But to the point of your post - democracy is about the process of electing representitives and not whether they can actaully deliver. In Islamic history, leaders were chosen not by elections but rather by appointing successors and people who were capable of leading. Today the candidate that talk the talk wins.

Democracy according to the US is accepting that their way of life. Period. Any other way is considered extremism. Consider this, democracy cant be about freedom since any country the US went to 'free' is worst off now then before.

Islamic Shariah law provides justice, fair and simple. The punishments etc as defined in Shariah Law have been in operation for over 1400 years. What other system of law has been in operation for that long? There must be somthing to it - oh wait maybe its the justice for all that it provides.

Islam is a way of life, and this way of life is been threatened by the West.
 
First off I am glad to see that there are others out there who are actually taking the time to think about the USA/West and its affect on the world.

I will however, say that the US is just the flag bearer of an idealogy that many in the world consider freedom. Western ways life promotes, as simon_irl pointed out, consumarism, materialism to name but a few. There is an ever degrading moral fabric that western culture promotes. Eg. Gone are the days when adultry/casual sex was frowned upon - in todays time imo its actaully encouraged!!!

But to the point of your post - democracy is about the process of electing representitives and not whether they can actaully deliver. In Islamic history, leaders were chosen not by elections but rather by appointing successors and people who were capable of leading. Today the candidate that talk the talk wins.

Democracy according to the US is accepting that their way of life. Period. Any other way is considered extremism. Consider this, democracy cant be about freedom since any country the US went to 'free' is worst off now then before.

Islamic Shariah law provides justice, fair and simple. The punishments etc as defined in Shariah Law have been in operation for over 1400 years. What other system of law has been in operation for that long? There must be somthing to it - oh wait maybe its the justice for all that it provides.

Islam is a way of life, and this way of life is been threatened by the West.

It just happens to be a lot more fair and just if you're a male though. Shariah doesn't dig chicks much.
 
FailTHREAD(tm)

I agree... some people really need to get a script for some sleeping tablets. What the hell is any sane person doing debating this sort of thing between 1 and 3am?

If the muslim extremists weren't threatening anyone who is a "non believer" then perhaps this argument may hold a tiny bit of water. Their attacks are also not just on the US.
 
I have a theory. As a muslim we have been schooled in a very distinct way. The Quraan has thought us to open our minds to the agendas of the world. Theres nothing evil about the US. Its those that run it, their intentions. Zionism is real. A new world order is coming. The Muslims will be immune to it (i hope). Beware the flute of the media. Do not bow down to it. For decades they have portrayed Muslims and arabs in a bad light. They know why. We know why. Its not Islams fight against Zionism, it should be the worlds... until its to late.
And that, people, is the reason I am fully against Islam, they want to destroy Israel and the rest of the world. If you are not with them, you are against them.
That is their so called teachings.
Oh and Arabs portray themselves in a bad light they don't need the media to do it for them.
Zionism is real thats for sure and believe me its going nowhere so keep dreaming.
 
It the last day of the decade! FFS! :mad:

:wtf: WHO CARES! GET DRUNK!


We'll bump this thread in Feb again!
 
I have a theory. As a muslim we have been schooled in a very distinct way. The Quraan has thought us to open our minds to the agendas of the world. Theres nothing evil about the US. Its those that run it, their intentions. Zionism is real. A new world order is coming. The Muslims will be immune to it (i hope). Beware the flute of the media. Do not bow down to it. For decades they have portrayed Muslims and arabs in a bad light. They know why. We know why. Its not Islams fight against Zionism, it should be the worlds... until its to late.

...and the OP was saying that the "west" was brainwashed!!
 
It just happens to be a lot more fair and just if you're a male though. Shariah doesn't dig chicks much.

on the contrary, Shariah Law is just as harsh on males as on females

it just so happens that the interpretation of this law in so-called islamic states ends up being biased in favour of males

at this moment in time, there are no 'proper' islamic states
 
And that, people, is the reason I am fully against Islam, they want to destroy Israel and the rest of the world. If you are not with them, you are against them.
That is their so called teachings.
Oh and Arabs portray themselves in a bad light they don't need the media to do it for them.
Zionism is real thats for sure and believe me its going nowhere so keep dreaming.

Arabs are not reflective of the ENTIRE muslim population. if i remember the statistics properly, they constitute less than 10% of the worldwide muslim population

Islam is not about destroying anything. Islam is a religion of peace and tolerence. i suggest you do some proper research before labelling all of us towel-head wearing terrorists
 
I have a theory. As a muslim we have been schooled in a very distinct way. The Quraan has thought us to open our minds to the agendas of the world. Theres nothing evil about the US. Its those that run it, their intentions. Zionism is real. A new world order is coming. The Muslims will be immune to it (i hope). Beware the flute of the media. Do not bow down to it. For decades they have portrayed Muslims and arabs in a bad light. They know why. We know why. Its not Islams fight against Zionism, it should be the worlds... until its to late.

The "Around the Globe" section of the Cape Times of today has 8 articles in it. The stories are about things that happened in
- Iran
- Afghanistan
- Laos
- Iran
- Jordan
- Turkey
- Australia
- India

There seems to be an unreasonable tilt towards the middle east. Needless to say, none of these are 'good news' stories. I cannot accept that virtually all the bad stuff in the world is happening in Arab, or Muslim countries.

As for the "democracy" issue, there is nothing to argue. Read any book that analyses the rise and fall of civilisations, and you will understand that the USA is already in the autumn of its existence.

If the likes of Britney Spears epitomise the height of American "civilisation"
then the sooner the world is rid of this pestilence, the better. The USA is also waging agressive war on several fronts, and probably more to come. Why is George Bush not on trial for war crimes? Where are the weapons of mass destruction that were the justification for invading Iraq??

Goodbye, United States of America. You drowned in your own greed and arrogance. You were a bully and you deserved what is coming to you.
 
There are not really any goodies and baddies in this war. I am niether pro US or pro East but given the choice of living in an American state (simular to what we have now) or an Islamic (like Egypt or even Dubai) I choose the American way.
I have no problem with Islam except when I am forced to live by their rules, the way they treat women or their beliefs in a god. Possibly I would feel the same living in a Jewish state or even in a fundementalist christain state.

So when I see any kind of confilct on the news (American/Arab/Jewish) I feel sorry for the victums but understand that on some level I have to choose between the ugliness of war and not being able to have my own beliefs (Agnostic).
 
We should all just smoke weed!

Then we'll have world peace and equality.

Poverty will be banished forever and no one will their finger on the big red button!
 
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