MWEB - Message from CEO - Acceptable Use Policy

OK, so we have PeterCH doing his usual late at night arguing for the sake of it and ignoring questions put forward to him so I'm going to leave him to have his fun......

WELL DONE MWEB ON ROOTING OUT THOSE WHO ARE ABUSING THE SYSTEM. The rest of us would like to see this great service continue until you can offer something even more ground breaking.
 
Basjohn said:
You CANNOT prove me wrong here because I'm simply stating the facts as the english language says them. Uncapped is uncapped. Putting ANY restrictions of the amount of data is putting a CAP on it (or limit - see synonyms!).

I don't know about you, but saying words repeatedly like that reminds me of someone saying on radio, "sleeping around is sleeping around"...

Clearly you don't understand that when a company sell a service with T&Cs which you agreed to, they are allowed to enforce them, regardless of whether the language use is a fact or interpretation.
 
Should you
not adhere to this request, you leave us no choice but to have your
account terminated
in line with our ADSL Service Terms.

Mweb.
 
@Seeyou : The Consumer Protection Act is a big focus for us right now in terms of ensuring that all of our customer service processes are up to speed and it's something I've spent quite a bit of time on myself recently. I can honestly tell you that as customer service is such a core value for us at MWEB, much of what the act stipulates are things that we have already been doing for quite some time!

@PeterCH: I'm really sorry that you feel that this is a poor show on our part and I fully respect your point of view, however our shaped and unshaped products are clearly demarcated in the advertising in terms of the usage profile that we expect on them. The unshaped products is named Internet Addict and is flagged as being for heavy downloaders and I honestly feel that the customers we contacted, requesting not that they terminate their accounts, but that they migrate to this product would be hard-pressed to argue that they do not fall into this range of usage.

I think it's also fair to note that of the customers we offered this choice to very few of them expressed the opinion that they were being unfairly treated and many of them made the decision to stay on and move to a product more appropriate to their usage needs.

I appreciate your reply but I truly did not expect this of you guys. Oh well... back to caps except - who knows what the cap is now. At least if you said xxx is considered 'abusive' we would buy some GBs from somewhere else and just think "OK I have an xxx account."
 
So MWEB is therefore preventing people from protecting their PRIVACY.

Nope, Mweb have in no way invaded their privacy. They are simply saying you can't use a VPN tunnel to do mass downloads and bypass their shaping services. Yes its harsh but its the narrow minded selfish users who are bypassing the shaping protocols that have caused them to take those steps.

As to shaping VPN/SSL traffic, it would be detrimental to most of the users needing it for normal vpn/ssl use, like work from home or banking.
 
The service is called UNCAPPED = no limits. From what I understood, the shaping was supposed to ensure that abuse did not occur, and obviously account sharing etc is all abusive. However, now we hear other stories. Because MWEB's shaping is deficient, suddenly people are terminated. Anyway - this is all a poor show and hardly cricket.

for the love of god try to follow the cases and the verdicts

SolMatrix / D I Wise & Another / 9956 (fake saix uncapped accounts/ complaint upheld)
http://www.asasa.org.za/ResultDetail.aspx?Ruling=3957


Open Web Uncapped ADSL / MB Deas & Another / 9690 (uncapped limits / complaint dismissed)
http://www.asasa.org.za/ResultDetail.aspx?Ruling=3915
16 Oct 2007

Consumer complaints were lodged against an OpenWeb Internet advertisement promoting its ADSL packages. The advertisement was published at www.openweb.co.za.

It offers and describes the respondent’s “OpenWeb Uncapped ADSL” and states, inter alia, “Spoil Yourself! Uncapped ADSL 384k for R999!”

COMPLAINTS
In essence, the complainants submitted that the advertisement is misleading as the word “uncapped” implies limitless access, but the service being offered is limited to specific threshold data usage.

RELEVANT CLAUSE OF THE CODE OF ADVERTISING PRACTICE
In light of the complaint Clause 4.2.1 of Section II (Misleading claims) was taken into account.

RESPONSE
The respondent, submitted, inter alia, that:

* Channel capacity is a finite resource. Using huge amounts of it can be deemed an abuse and Internet Service Providers (ISP’S) often publish policies that clarify the difference between "uncapped" and "unlimited". An analogy to water supplied to an apartment makes the distinction clear: Water comes with the apartment, and is uncapped, but not unlimited. If one uses water in a way that a typical apartment user would, one will have no problems. If however, one leaves all of the faucets running day and night, one can expect the water connection to be turned off or the water pressure to be greatly reduced.

* In order to protect a network, ISPs may introduce fair usage policies in order to provide a positive network experience for the majority, and prevent a small minority from abusing the service.

* Selling an Uncapped ADSL package means that you are selling a package that does not introduce a hardcap once a user reaches a certain bandwidth usage limit. The user must be able to continue using the Internet at all times during the course of a month. Because the user will always have an Internet connection, irrelevant of bandwidth usage, the package remains uncapped.

* No user, irrelevant of usage, will be disconnected from the network and left with no Internet connection. The uncapped package advertised has no ultimate bandwidth cap, thus users will always have an Internet connection, irrelevant of usage.


OPINION
The Directorate requested an opinion from the Internet Service Provider’s Association (ISPA) on the use of the term “Uncapped”. ISPA submitted, inter alia, the following.

* The service offered by Open Web does not, in fact, have a “cap” on the volume of traffic a customer may transmit or receive, but there is a limitation imposed on the speed of the users connection once a certain traffic threshold is reached.

* Given the general understanding in the market of the terms “capped” and “uncapped”, it is reasonable for Open Web to market this service as “uncapped”.


* Perhaps including the rate at which speed is throttled in the advertising would offer even more clarity on this issue for potential customers.


ASA DIRECTORATE RULING
The ASA Directorate considered all the relevant documentation as submitted by the respective parties.

In the interest of equity the respondent was afforded an opportunity to comment on ISPA’s opinion. However, as it did not wish to submit additional comments, the Directorate was able to proceed to rule.

Clause 4.2.1 of Section II states that advertisements should not contain any statement or visual presentation, which directly or by implication, omission, ambiguity, inaccuracy, exaggerated claim or otherwise, is likely to mislead the consumer.

The complainants are of the opinion that the advertisement is misleading as the word “uncapped” implies limitless Internet access. The service, however, is limited to specific amounts of data. Once the stipulated limit is reached, the connection speed is significantly reduced.

The respondent submitted that it is not selling “unlimited” ADSL accounts, but “uncapped” ADSL accounts. Because the user will always have an Internet connection, irrelevant of bandwidth usage, the package remains uncapped. Users who download more than their allocated amount of data are restricted in terms of access speed, but will still have Internet access.


While ISPA accepted that some consumers might attach an incorrect interpretation to the term “uncapped”, it appears of the opinion that the respondent’s practice is common in the industry. It also commended the respondent for the clear explanations it has on its website in this regard.

The Directorate acknowledges that there is some scope for a potential customer to confuse the “threshold” levels as “caps”, but the meaning of the limitations must be assessed in the context they appear. The claim therefore needs to be measured in the context of the respondent’s website.

As mentioned by ISPA, the Directorate notes that positioning the mouse pointer over the “10-day limit threshold”, for example, pops up the following text: “If more than this amount is used within a 10-day rolling period, the connection speed will be limited to half the account speed”. A similar message appears when hovering over the “Monthly Threshold” item.

The word “threshold” also appears with sufficient prominence in the advertising material. A hypothetical reasonable person would associate this word with at least some sort of boundary, or at the very least, the beginning of new conditions. If nothing else, it alerts the consumer to the fact that there is a threshold that could potentially be crossed. The relevant thresholds are also clearly disclosed, along with the message that a breach thereof will result in limited access speeds.

This is distinctly different from models where a user is blocked entirely from accessing Internet content once a specific amount of traffic has been transmitted. According to ISPA, this sort of service is usually referred as a “capped” service. The model used by Open Web does not seem to match the generally understood meaning of a "capped" service, as the flow of information is never stopped. At worst, it is hampered when thresholds are reached, a fact that is clearly communicated to the consumer.

Based on the above the Directorate is of the opinion that the advertisement is not misleading, as it appears ex facie that the services offered by the respondent are “uncapped”. It is therefore not in contravention of Clause 4.2.1 of Section II.

The complaints are dismissed.
 
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OK, so we have PeterCH doing his usual late at night arguing for the sake of it and ignoring questions put forward to him so I'm going to leave him to have his fun......

WELL DONE MWEB ON ROOTING OUT THOSE WHO ARE ABUSING THE SYSTEM. The rest of us would like to see this great service continue until you can offer something even more ground breaking.

Weren't you defending AfriHost before quitting and going to MWEB?

If you look at my previous posts, I've been quite defensive of MWEB myself. Anyway - I just don't like bullying.
 
for the love of god try to follow the cases and the verdicts

SolMatrix / D I Wise & Another / 9956 (fake saix uncapped accounts/ complaint upheld)
http://www.asasa.org.za/ResultDetail.aspx?Ruling=3957


Open Web Uncapped ADSL / MB Deas & Another / 9690 (uncapped limits / complaint dismissed)
http://www.asasa.org.za/ResultDetail.aspx?Ruling=3915

I'm sorry but UNCAPPED is not UNCAPPED. I don't need ASASA to tell me what UNCAPPED means or not. Call a product what it is and not what it isn't. Ambiguity is indecent.
 
So you're saying - switch off privacy when you are downloading files of x size?

Again can you see the absurdity of this?

Your privacy is limited by MWEB's issues.

No, they're saying don't hide behind VPN software to do mass downloads all day and night and think to get away with it. The odd durations of a upload or download over vpn would not be an issue but they are effectively talking about people that are connected 24/7 and pulling large amounts of data constently through a vpn link.
 
Nope, Mweb have in no way invaded their privacy. They are simply saying you can't use a VPN tunnel to do mass downloads and bypass their shaping services. Yes its harsh but its the narrow minded selfish users who are bypassing the shaping protocols that have caused them to take those steps.

As to shaping VPN/SSL traffic, it would be detrimental to most of the users needing it for normal vpn/ssl use, like work from home or banking.

If a user cannot use a VPN for all connections - if he feels paranoid or whatever his or her reasoning is - that is hampering privacy. Again, MWEB is free to SHAPE the CONNECTION if they want.
 
I'm sorry but UNCAPPED is not UNCAPPED. I don't need ASASA to tell me what UNCAPPED means or not. Call a product what it is and not what it isn't. Ambiguity is indecent.

they are the ASASA and if they say you are gay you are gay. this is why i said, go try the case and i would really be surprised if they had a mind shift since that ruling which i doubt. it's only not uncapped if they either cap or remove your connection, period.
 
No, they're saying don't hide behind VPN software to do mass downloads all day and night and think to get away with it. The odd durations of a upload or download over vpn would not be an issue but they are effectively talking about people that are connected 24/7 and pulling large amounts of data constently through a vpn link.

That is assuming the user is using it to hide behind, ie. assuming the worst about the user.
 
they are the ASASA and if they say you are gay you are gay. this is why i said, go try the case and i would really be surprised if they had a mind shift since that ruling which i doubt. it's only not uncapped if they either cap or remove your connection, period.

There is a cap. Guy who was given a letter pulled 600GB. He said he didn't use a VPN. Now assume, that he used a VPN to cheat shaping but only pulled 20GB per month. Do you think he would have been called?

Logic dictates that is capping.
 
That is assuming the user is using it to hide behind, ie. assuming the worst about the user.

it does not take a ten year old to tell you that for example user A using vpn doing odd 50 gigs VS user B doing 600 gigs via a single ip that something is up. really dude. are you bored or just stuck in a loop ?
 
That is assuming the user is using it to hide behind, ie. assuming the worst about the user.

Unfortunately its not a assumption if the line is running full 24/7.

*yawn* its late, off to bed so I can work and pay for my ridiculously expensive internet addiction in the morning :D

Night folks.
 
it does not take a ten year old to tell you that for example user A using vpn doing odd 50 gigs VS user B doing 600 gigs via a single ip that something is up. really dude. are you bored or just stuck in a loop ?

Something I'm trying to get to through to you and you are not able to grasp is that if someone uses a VPN for privacy they should not have to deactivate it if they want to download. If someone wants privacy they should be able to have it 24/7. If not then they need to put that restriction so that people know where they stand - "This product is unsuitable for transfers over 10GB over an encrypted connection."
 
Unfortunately its not a assumption if the line is running full 24/7.

*yawn* its late, off to bed so I can work and pay for my ridiculously expensive internet addiction in the morning :D

Night folks.

24/7 unshaped = 1000 GB not 600GB. Anyway.
 
There is a cap. Guy who was given a letter pulled 600GB. He said he didn't use a VPN. Now assume, that he used a VPN to cheat shaping but only pulled 20GB per month. Do you think he would have been called?

Logic dictates that is capping.

600 gig of 100% legit things ? sure :), i guess ubuntu got a real big update since i last tried it. mweb clearly stated as any other isp that you have to adhere to their rules to use their service. as easy as that. if you don't like the cookie casing go look on another shelve.

still waiting for this isp of yours that is TC/AUP free.
 
@Tanya35 Yes the other choice is cancellation, but please put emphasize on the fact that a choice was offered. It might surprise you to know that more than one customer chose to reduce their usage and expenditure and move down to the 512k unshaped product, which we were more than happy to accomodate - apparently it is possible to download the whole Internet in 3 months :-)
 
600 gig of 100% legit things ? sure :), i guess ubuntu got a real big update since i last tried it. mweb clearly stated as any other isp that you have to adhere to their rules to use their service. as easy as that. if you don't like the cookie casing go look on another shelve.

still waiting for this isp of yours that is TC/AUP free.

Ok now you're arguing WHAT he was downloading. Yes it could have been legit.

I am not against MWEB protecting against 'abuse'. I just want them to spell in black and white what abuse is - i.e. quantify it. From what I understood earlier was that their systems shaped the connection to avoid abuse and only abuse in the form of sharing connections across numerous households or hosting websites was 'abuse'.

Thanks.
 
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