My MWEB hellopeter. avoid mweb like the plague

I

ian_stagib

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Hey guys. I think we all appreciate getting a headsup about rubbish service, well here's mine (apologies for the long post ahead, I like being thorough)

hellopeter link

You guys should share your opinion on this in this thread. It's not like I want to avoid mweb guy's thread, but honestly it doesn't seem like the place to share it. I tried posting there before but he never even got back to me. He said he would but didn't.

So the hellopeter is just a summary and here it is.

I signed up for an Mweb 4mb uncapped package at the beginning of the year. Given that it's supposed to be an "uncapped" package I tried to maximize my return by making sure I download as much as possible while still trying to remain "fair". In the beginning I was unsure of the limits so until my first letter I just let it go. Then I tried to download only in off peak times (that still wasn't good enough for them). After threatening letters from their abuse dept I then throttled my line speed myself. I tried to throttle my downloads to 300kbps (out of a max possible of 430) and this worked for the most part. This was also after a helpful discussion with one of their administrators, Richard Vice. We exchanged mails and I learned a few things from them. But then all of a sudden keeping my downloads down to as low as 250kbps is not good enough for them. The abuse dept doesnt return emails until they are forced to, their own billing department struggles to get in contact with them and every time I overstep my target download usage I get a letter threatening to cut off and blacklist. What more do you want?! Using half of line speed is more than fair, Mweb however isn't. Moved to afrihost
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For those interested in the full story... read further.

One of the biggest issues with Mweb's abuse dept is that they NEVER get back to you unless you force and beg and plead for them to. So in May I actually managed to start a dialogue with them. Here's a copy paste of the relevent messages:

On the 17th of May ( a week after i mailed them begging for clarity ) I received this mail:

Good day Mr Stevens

We appreciate your response.

Your usage pattern summary for May is below.

Day Sessions Bytes Used
17 1 6,973,229,005
16 1 22,124,177,574
15 3 14,787,190,976
14 1 23,549,354,374
13 1 25,044,254,993
12 1 29,769,703,699

11 1 25,678,522,738
10 1 26,603,348,797
9 1 23,546,127,476
8 1 25,569,782,096
7 1 27,276,831,133
6 1 33,237,941,878
5 1 23,526,010,139
4 1 32,254,241,849
3 2 27,500,927,636
2 1 25,534,512,610
1 1 32,106,331,841

Your usage pattern from 1st to 11th May triggered the notification and monitoring process. It also appears that your subsequent pattern from 12th to 14th will probably trigger a second notification.
When we mention prolonged sessions, we are referring to using the maximum capacity (or close to) of your line for bulk transfers for several days. That pattern of usage is not in keeping with the terms and conditions of the product, which clearly state that you are not to behave in such a manner as to place an unnecessary burden on our network.

As an example, if you were constantly "maxxing" your line daily and transferring 40GB a day, then a drop by 5GB to 35GB per day cannot be considered significant. Cutting your data transfer halfway would however indicate to management that you are definitely willing to change your usage pattern though. We are not saying that you can only transfer at 1Mbit every day, however, transferring at line (or close to) speed 24 / 7 could be seen as network abuse.

Should you wish to continue with the usage patterns highlighted above, you may trigger further notifications with the end result that the account would be terminated. We would need to see a significant drop in these prolonged sessions to avoid any further notifications.
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My response was:

Thanks for the info Richard, this is at least something I can definitely work with to understand how to handle this. I do however have a few more questions if you don't mind assisting me further, this is because I've now tried a few scenarios and your reasoning doesn't explain why those scenarios didn't work. So let me explain my processes so far:

In the first month and I was trying to get a feel, so I left it unrestricted and expected you to throttle me when necessary. I received the warning and then tried to run my automated downloads only during off peak hours (20:00 - 08:00 weekdays and all day weekends) and this was left unrestricted then during those times. This would be my preferred usage pattern and could even shorten it to start at 22:00 if that's better (as long as weekends are open game), but this didn't seem to suit your monitoring tool and I received the second warning. So perhaps as my first question could you explain why this pattern is not suitable? Because if this is not fair then I'd be worried about being able to grab Steam downloads as those can't be throttled and are large and will take a while. I don't really understand how this could put stress on your network when kept to off peak times as many other providers even allow for packages which are 1mb during peak times and then up to 10mb off peak (unrestricted).

So I tried the off-peak thing and then receiving the 2nd warning then tried to change it to constantly throttle my automated downloads. A full line speed download will give me between 410 and 430 KB/s so I took it down to 300KB/s and this seemed to suit your monitoring for, I think it was, two months (check when I received the second warning up until this period for exact length). So my second and third question is, is 300Kb/s not fair? And why the sudden issue if it was ok for the last while? Admittedly there will be periods where normal browsing usage will be added on top of the 300KB/s base but those would be erratic and again, perhaps you could suggest a scenario I should target?

My fourth question is, if you take a look at my total monthly usage you can see that I actually average about half to 3/5ths of what a 4mb line is capable of. This is already an indication that I'm not actually abusing the line. Should this not be taken into account when you're notifying me of abuse? A large part of my confusion lies with this. As you mentioned now, you're not expecting me to only transfer at 1mbps but if I transfer at a constant 2mbps then I should then be hitting pretty much my overall usage for the month that I'm doing now, is that not correct? As i'm taking it, it seems that you're punishing me for shorter periods of high use which, correct me if i'm wrong, is supposed to be normal usage pattern given that you only need to download large things in chunks and then you quieten down again.

I obviously can't monitor my data transfer all the time so what I'm trying to achieve here with you is to find a usage scenario that we can both be happy with. I need to learn what kind of pattern I should aim for, which I'm more than willing to do, and I'm asking you as my provider to help me get maximum return out of a high cost product. I also don't want future worries and hassles when thinking that "oh no, i suddenly need to download an update / os / game and it's big, will take a while and can't be throttled.. i'm going to be getting a warning soon". I hope you can appreciate my logic and will get back to me on my questions and concerns soon so that I can make the necessary amendments. I also hope that my taking the time to deal with this with you shows my willingness to be fair and that I am not just trying to abuse the line but to get a fair return for my money.
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and i added:

Hi Richard, apologies for adding this addendum to the previous message
but I thought I'd just add a few calculations to my previous message
and from the data you just provided me to help. I noticed that your
flags were raised when I do more than 23Gb/day. I calculated that to
equal approx 266Kb/s constant rate. If I go back to the off peak usage
scenario I first tried and as mentioned in the last message, then let
me show you what the data usage is there. If I run at 400Kb/s
constantly for 12 hours I would manage 17.3Gb which is way under your
flagged limit for this line. This just adds to my question as to why I
received a warning for the off peak scenario. Could it perhaps be that
over weekends (sat and sun) that it would be running closer to 24hrs
and therefore pushing past the flag limit on those two days? If that's
the case then are the rules for your monitoring system not maybe a
little unfair if you want to use the reason that it's hampering your
ability to provide a quality service to others? I'm saying this
because of the fact that it's off peak hours and it's generally
expected that those hours are more available for such usage. I would
also imagine that due to the drop in IPC costs of late that you should
have even more capacity to provide your customers and hence your
upgrades etc of your slower uncapped packages and everyone else's
competitive behaviour in the isp market this last month. Please take
my messages as constructive feedback though. You know very well that
your market is very competitive and I don't think that you can afford
to not at least listen to the feedback your customers provide and I
would imagine that most people that purchase this kind of product are
well aware of the pricing of other ISP's, and unfortunately Mweb isn't
the cheapest at the moment outside of 1mbps (both business and
consumer products).

Thanks again, and chat soon
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His response:

Good day Ian

I appreciate your informative and detailed response.

You raise valid questions and make valid points which are also greatly appreciated.

Essentially, the notifications are triggered by (amongst other parameters) a prolonged period of daily usage patterns between 20 and 40 GBs.

In other words if your usage patterns are identified as attempting to download as much as you can, as fast as you can every day for a number of consecutive days, your requirement is not suited to an Uncapped Shaped Home Use ADSL product.

That is as much detail as I am able to provide you with regarding this process without completely breaching any internal policies. You have brought valuable information to this discussion and given that you indicate your willingness to be fair and work within the Fair Use parameters I feel justified in providing you with this information.

As long as you manage your usage patterns appropriately you should not trigger any further notifications or warnings.
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So here I thought things would go peachy. I'd throttle my downloads and everyone would be happy (well, i'd be mostly happy.. still not getting much out of my line). Anyway, every time that I'd mistakenly not notice some steam download going off or whatever and my usage would go slightly my above target for the day (which I tried to keep to 21-23gb per day then they would send me a letter. And not just any letter, a final warning letter threatening cancellation (gee, such considerate types hey). Oh, and guess what kind of reason they give:

Your current ADSL usage pattern shows repeated instances of prolonged download sessions at line, or near line speeds which is placing an undue burden on our network and is not in keeping with our Acceptable Usage Policy.
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Really? When I'm keeping my downloads to 250kbps aside from general gaming / usage? Friggin geniuses.

So now this last week I get another of these letters, I respond and no surprise here but I get no response back. Today I get disconnected and I flip my lid, so I phone them and so on. Their own billing dept cant get hold of them (sigh).

Eventually the abuse dept sends me back this:

Active network abuse warnings remain valid for a period of 3 months.

Your original 1st and 2nd warnings were triggered in February 2012. May 2012 saw a Cancellation being overturned to monitoring on more than 1 occasion.

This was again done during July 2012 as you requested that we please reconsider cancelling the account (as per e-mail requested dated 12 July). Below, please find a summary of your usage pattern for July 2012 :

Day
Bytes Used
30
8,496,422,311
29
12,897,714,540
28
15,297,903,325
27
27,656,565,312
26
20,159,436,166
25
18,432,186,275
24
21,780,512,554
23
22,069,680,191
22
16,371,850,121
21
17,570,759,874
20
22,229,136,113
19
21,239,272,831
18
16,471,812,569
17
19,667,781,513
16
20,813,428,486
15
12,710,856,195
14
20,459,386,971
13
14,099,048,152
12
22,243,380,103
11
24,328,021,557
10
27,913,958,002
9
25,851,332,325
8
26,203,007,598
7
26,158,181,189
6
23,696,994,350
5
25,534,330,367
4
18,786,400,581
3
23,581,486,262
2
18,911,842,622
1
23,735,517,142
July

It is our undersanding that after you had requested that we reconsider and you were allowed to continue using the service, there would be a significant change in your daily usage pattern. Based on the pattern above however, largescale transfers are still being conducted and the pattern could be considered as “using manual or automated means to avoid any use limitations placed on the IP Services”. This is indicated as a Security Violation in the MWEB Acceptable Use Policy.
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So I put it to you guys. Do you really think it's fair that Mweb only allows you to use half or less of your account? Do you think they should maybe advertise that fact nicely so that everyone can see what kind of sharks they are?

Oh, nice little cherry on the cake... the complaints dept phones me and says it's my fault that I was using ssl and they couldn't throttle me, never mind that I had tried downloading on off peak, throttling my speeds and actually having a chat to the guys at abuse dept. No, somewhere in there its my fault that they dont' actually tell me what is expected in order to get the most for my money. They try pin it on you and make you be the bad guy for being a consumer with some brain cells.

Come guys, opinions?
 
drukkie said:
linux distro's hey?
I have that same problem!
just get a business account cause it seems like you running one ;)
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Yeah, and steam downloads and watching tv and whatever else i feel like. These guys seriously think they can hide behind their "fair use policies" and mess you around. I figure we should boycott this behaviour and abuse dept that think they're God cause they can cancel your line. They really need to wake up
 
ianst1024 said:
Oh, nice little cherry on the cake... the complaints dept phones me and says it's my fault that I was using ssl and they couldn't throttle me...
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IMO if somebody's downloading using SSL (hiding something there?) and is maxing out his line, then it shouts "abuse"...
 
I'm happy with MWEB.

I am able to let my torrents go all the time, and I presume MWEB shape them as they need to, and my stuff comes down.

Good luck with your new ISP.

*edit*

I do pay attention to these sorts of threads though, and as yet, I've yet to come across a case where a customer is not very obviously ignoring (intentionally or accidentally) the FUP.
 
The_Librarian said:
IMO if somebody's downloading using SSL (hiding something there?) and is maxing out his line, then it shouts "abuse"...
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So it's abuse if I halve my speed? I know plenty of guys that do 900gb plus in a month on a shaped service. I do about 500 or just under. I like ssl cause it gives me privacy. Don't you like privacy?
 
BUT I get your point....

They basically saying that we don't throttle you...but we will cut your account(One big F#%!#% throttle)
This way they can advertise no throttling yet in some way still apply it. and save cost on hardware.

but really...get a business account.
 
Nope,you pay for the ability to share a certain amount of the maximum burstable speed of your line as sustained

Using SSL to bypass the shaping protocols is contravening the usage policy you had accepted by signing up for the account,and now you complain?
 
Can only imagine the furor and vitriol that would be forthcoming if you actually had a congested exchange because everybody else had the same opinion as you regarding "fair usage"
 
Hi ianst1024

It really is unfortunate that you have found this process so frustrating.

I really don't feel that its appropriate to get into the specifics of your case on a public forum, however I have reviewed the correspondence with our abuse team and it's clear that an ample effort has been made in correspondence dating back to February to ensure that the policy was understood by yourself and extending further grace periods to allow you to adjust your usage patterns.

Kind Regards
Will
 
PsyWulf said:
Nope,you pay for the ability to share a certain amount of the maximum burstable speed of your line as sustained

Using SSL to bypass the shaping protocols is contravening the usage policy you had accepted by signing up for the account,and now you complain?
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I even tried to not use ssl, so don't hang me up just on that point. I tried using the plain connection for a while and they still sent me a letter. So I was truly confused, and given the fact that they don't seem to care if I'm using ssl or not in terms of "abuse" i chose to stick with ssl cause I like it.
 
ianst1024 said:
I even tried to not use ssl, so don't hang me up just on that point.
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If SSL usage was the only barometer you wouldn't have had an issue

You used SSL
Alot
After abuse letters were sent you adjusted the usage by 30ish percent

The average downloader uses about 10gig a day,your adjusted usage accounted to more than that,combined with your over-use you didn't seem to do much to get your overall usage within reasonable limits
 
Will@MWEB said:
Hi ianst1024

It really is unfortunate that you have found this process so frustrating.

I really don't feel that its appropriate to get into the specifics of your case on a public forum, however I have reviewed the correspondence with our abuse team and it's clear that an ample effort has been made in correspondence dating back to February to ensure that the policy was understood by yourself and extending further grace periods to allow you to adjust your usage patterns.

Kind Regards
Will
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If you feel that enough effort was made and that you were clear enough then I won't change your mind, however I would suggest you make sure that you understand my grievences and check if there aren't any contradictions with that statement. You can clearly read what information I was given and what information I was looking for. If I, as a customer, was advised but was still not able to fall in line then perhaps your (as in the abuse dept) communication was flawed and should be considered when thinking that i'm the bad guy. I put up this communication because the guy from the complaints dept just tried to blame me (he didn't even try and read the emails).

And I honestly will consider getting a business line at some point, however because of this I know I won't even consider MWEB. I am also allowing others to judge for themselves whether or not your company acted fairly or not. If you feel you did then you can obviously disregard this post and believe that no one else will agree with me. I have after all just posted up the communication as detailed as possible and tried to keep my own bias out of the information except for where it is obvious that I am posting my own opinion.
 
MWEB as a rule does not shape HTTP, except for filesharing sites. - And the only bypass for that is SSL encryption ( a bypass, which is in breach of the ToS ).

But just taking a rough average ( 29gb ) of your daily usage, you are either doing your math wrong, your pc is lieing to you, or you are lieing to us, as 29gb in 24 hours comes out to 335kb/s, which is well above the 250 that you are claiming.

This month, I've downloaded a little over 400gb, and because I do absolutely nothing to bypass the shaping policy, I believe that MWEB is not seeing me as a destructive user, and are letting me have my fun.

Advice: Don't intentionally get around their policies, and they will not slam their policies in your face when they feel like you are taking advantage ( And don't even try pretend that you aren't taking advantage, you're trying to get sub R2/gb, and you have to know that's not sustainable from a business point of view ).

The moment that MWEB complains about my usage pattern, instead of going aggressive and bashing them, I'll slow down, perhaps not grab everything in HD, and move on, because even if I can't use it like I have been, MWEB is still the best provider out there at the moment.
 
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