My Prophecy experience

They're doing fine without it, their site explains why they don't accept cards, I suspect fraud and costs are preventing them from choosing that route for now.

They're doing fine but it's not convenient. So they won't have me as a customer. A site like ToolFarm.com can ship Adobe Production Suite Premium to Africa on a credit card with no faxes or scans but Prophecy can't ship a lousy HDD enclosure to a local street address with an ID number. Hmmmm.....right.

Also why have those HackerProof Certificates on the site if they don't take CCs. It makes no sense.

Take2 isn't doing so badly either. They take CC. Service is also top notch. I used them back in the days when they were called TheShoppingMatrix. They swopped out a failed GeForce2 Deluxe from Asus back in 2002 without problems. It was such a pleasure. They got me a GeForce 3Ti200 in exchange.

A few years later I got a free ATI Radeon 9800 PRO upgrade for the price of the non-pro version :) - that was Take2.

To be honest, Take2 has never disappointed. They also have a groovy forum. Take2 all the way :).
 
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He said he would not make excuses and he made excuses. The whole letter is full of excuses. :)

Ok, at least they replied :).

Like you said, they had the time to reply plus not many online stores do it. After rereading the post the second half is full of excuses lol. The credit card situation also sounds like an excuse but I mainly do EFTs and PayPal anyway, so I ain't phased.
 
Like you said, they had the time to reply plus not many online stores do it. After rereading the post the second half is full of excuses lol. The credit card situation also sounds like an excuse but I mainly do EFTs and PayPal anyway, so I ain't phased.

PayPal is a Credit card purchase - at least usually - unless you have an offshore bank account you charge your PP account with and Prophecy doesn't take PP does it?

EFTs suck because you send the funds, then if the item doesn't arrive or is delayed you have to fight with the shop for a refund. With a CC, the shop authorises the amount or just stores your CC number and then only bills you when the item is dispatched to you. You can always go to your bank or CC company and reverse the transaction if the shop goes bust or refuses to refund you. EFTs also suck. They cost you more than the shop and surely the shop includes the costs in the price but with large volumes the shop can negotiate a better deal with MC and VISA and you'll also end up saving. Amazon pays VISA less than Take2 for instance.
 
Wow, I realise that post is huge. If you don't want to read it, here's a summary:
We messed up, we are sorry, we are working to make sure this doesn't happen again!

Thanks for the succulent summary. I was getting worried you were trying to smoke screen us.
 
I've purchased goods from Prophecy and the service i received was excellent albeit, it does take them a day to reply to your e-mail.

I'd recommend them any day.
 
First time I used prophecy.

Paid on Monday received goods today (Wednesday).
 
PayPal is a Credit card purchase - at least usually - unless you have an offshore bank account you charge your PP account with and Prophecy doesn't take PP does it?

EFTs suck because you send the funds, then if the item doesn't arrive or is delayed you have to fight with the shop for a refund. With a CC, the shop authorises the amount or just stores your CC number and then only bills you when the item is dispatched to you. You can always go to your bank or CC company and reverse the transaction if the shop goes bust or refuses to refund you. EFTs also suck. They cost you more than the shop and surely the shop includes the costs in the price but with large volumes the shop can negotiate a better deal with MC and VISA and you'll also end up saving. Amazon pays VISA less than Take2 for instance.

Paypal is an easier way to do purchases with your credit/debit card when compared to traditional merchant accounts. Of course they aren't going to have Paypal because of SARS. Payment is cheaper for me through EFT as I can do payment on my phone and it's free of bank charges. I highly doubt that a trustworthy/reliable store would decide not to refund their clients on request unless you are at fault.
 
I am still waiting for replies to my emails, the first now over a month old.

The cost of the CC transaction costs them money, whereas the cost of the EFT costs you money. Go figure.
 
It would be great if you guys could fathom a way of having real-time stock check done via the product page, I am sure would cut the email load in half, surely.

The fact that I received auto-responder email back indicates my inquiries never landed in your trash, so still doesn't explain my problem.

Hi Kayvee

Yeah, we unfortunately must have just missed your email / marked it read / etc. Hopefully that won't happen from now onwards! I've asked Henk (Firestar) to contact you directly to sort out any questions you might have, he'll post in the thread here.

Otherwise, to answer your question on stock information:

At this point, the most accurate stock information we have is the information on the product page, and it's accurate the vast majority of the time. Unfortunately, the times when it is innaccurate is generally not because of errors on our side or stale information, but because of internal errors with the suppliers - there system says "3x in stock" and they go into the warehouse and can't find it, or an incorrect product has been logged into the system, or the stuff has been stolen. Unfortunately us phoning them does not remove this type of error, but we are rewarding and focusing on suppliers whose internal systems are more accurate - it's just a lot easier to do business with them.

Additionally we are registered with more than 50 suppliers, which means that for a huge amount of our products we have multiple sources. I can tell you guys that just about every week we are helping out a client with a product that he had already ordered elsewhere and could not source.

Unfortunately, with some brands being unique to a specific supplier, we have to deal with that supplier, and when they go out of stock they are out of stock!

At this point, the best is to order based on the stock information on the site. I can't gaurantee stock information (for the reason above), but I can tell you that it's correct more than 96% of the time (we just worked that out based on a daily average from our experience). If a product is "Stock levels unkown", the best is to ask us on live chat or give us a call.
 
I had sent the emails to [email protected]
as well as [email protected] and could forward them to you if you wish to check up on them. PM me your email address.

I have to say thanks for the reply, it is very heartening to see a company admitting an error and taking steps to ensure it isn't repeated.
I am sure this is sufficient to restore the forumites faith in you guys.

Thanks for the enclosures as well : )

Hi Abu

I'm glad we could sort you out - I'm sorry we screwed up, hopefully your experience in the future will be better.

Artagra
 
To everyone RE excuses:

Re-reading my post, I can see how you interpret it that way - sorry! In future I'll rather post seperately for the apology and the explanation. The intention is to show you guys that we are working on improving things, and to explain the reasons behind some of our business practises that I know frustrate clients.

If you feel like I was making excuses, feel free to ignore my first post and just read the summary in the second post :)
 
Thanks for the response Artagra, and taking the time.

Yeah I take your point on the stock situation, difficult I know, and yes it's unrealistic for you guys to be 100% accurate, we can but dream for an ideal world situation on this....

On my particular query that prompted this I did manage to source elsewhere, but will give you guys another look in next time.
 
I am still waiting for replies to my emails, the first now over a month old.

The cost of the CC transaction costs them money, whereas the cost of the EFT costs you money. Go figure.

Hi Kayvee,

As Paul explained in his previous post, our sales emails are a mess at the moment. We're working on a way to sort this out, but it's going to take a bit of time still. Please PM me on this forum, or alternatively, chat to me on our live chat? We'll sort you out in no time.

I apologise for not getting back to your email. The way our business (and I'm sure many other businesses) work, is that we try and keep our existing clients happy first, before taking on new customers. We are not in the business of making as much money as possible. If that were the case, we would respond to sales emails immediately, get the business and the rest of our business (like actually shipping orders or attending to warranties) would fall to pieces. We would have upset customers by the bucket loads, and that' puts stress on a company. Due to this, sales emails always will get a lower priority than, for example, order updates. I am personally responsible for attending to the order updates email address, and I make sure that at the end of the day, or by mid the next day latest, there's no emails left in that box. So I clear that inbox on a daily basis. Some times things are missed, and some times I mess up (I'm human after all), but mostly, this gets done on a daily basis.

However, we are snowed under with sales emails and we simply cannot manage to stay ahead, and run the rest of our business. Therefore, we've been discussing a plan to fix this problem (as we know 100% that it's a problem - customers emails us, we send them a respond saying that we're snowed under and won't attend soon, but then take much longer than we hope to get back to customers. We understand the impression this creates, and we understand the negative feelings this creates) and will be implementing this plan ASAP. We're hoping to work on it as soon as the new year after vacation rush has died down a bit, and we have a little bit of time on our hands. However, until then, sales emails will be in a bit of a mess, and we may miss a few emails. If anything is urgent, please give us a call, or better yet, chat to us on live chat.

I hope this helps to explain a bit where the problems lie, and what we're doing to correct the problem.
 
PayPal is a Credit card purchase - at least usually - unless you have an offshore bank account you charge your PP account with and Prophecy doesn't take PP does it?

EFTs suck because you send the funds, then if the item doesn't arrive or is delayed you have to fight with the shop for a refund. With a CC, the shop authorises the amount or just stores your CC number and then only bills you when the item is dispatched to you. You can always go to your bank or CC company and reverse the transaction if the shop goes bust or refuses to refund you. EFTs also suck. They cost you more than the shop and surely the shop includes the costs in the price but with large volumes the shop can negotiate a better deal with MC and VISA and you'll also end up saving. Amazon pays VISA less than Take2 for instance.

RE the whole credit card thing:


We know customers want to pay with credit cards, and we definitely want to be able to receive credit cards. When I buy from an online shop I've never dealt with before, I definitely prefer to use a CC - so I completely understand where you are coming from. Now, before I continue - I'm not trying to make excuses below, or to say that what I've chosen is perfect for all our customers - obiously, it's not. As with every choice in business, when you have two choices you are often choosing between which group of customers to help and which to hurt! What I am doing is trying to explain to you guys the decisions we've made, to show that we are on top of things and trying to offer the best service possible.

Unfortunately, running the overall margin that we run, selling the products we sell, at the volumes we do, we are just at the tipping point of accepting credit cards being feasible. We have twice implemented and run a credit card system in the past, and we have twice had to stop running the system because of pressures on the margin and because of poor service from the CC company. I can tell you know - there's nothing more frustrating to a client getting charged twice, or getting charged and us not receiving the money!

CC implementation was a priority for us for 2009, unfortunately during the course of the year for various reasons we chose to implement other changes to our system - changes that we have seen huge improvements from in sales - bigger improvements than what we saw when implementing CC transactions previously, to be honest. We are frequently re-evaluating the CC situation, and as soon as we can make it work we will do it, but I can make no guarantee as to when that will be.

We are not the only South African online shop struggling with this issue: http://www.sybaritic.co.za/store/forum/viewtopic.php?t=146

To answer your question why the "Hacker safe" (Trust Guard) stuff if we don't accept credit cards? Well, it's specifically to respond to your point above about how you are dependant on us for a refund. We include those logos, and what they represent (that our physical address, phone number, and company registration information have been confirmed) specifically so that you will feel comfortable purchasing from us, knowing that we won't steal from you.

Because we know the lack of a charge back feature is a major concern for people paying with EFT's, we have taken the policy of always being very happy to do refunds. If something never arrives, we are happy to refund you. If you order something and it's the wrong thing because of our error, we are happy to refund you. If you order something and it's the wrong thing because of your mistake, but it's unopened, we are happy to refund you. If it's open, we still refund you, but less a restocking fee of 10 to 20% depending on the condition. If you have repeated failures of a product (IE, you buy something, it dies, we swap it out, it dies again, we swap it out, it dies again), we are happy to refund you. If you have a single failure but we can't get swap out stock after two weeks, we are happy to refund you. So far we've done a poor job of promoting our refunds / RMA / etc policy, but we are making changes to make it more well known. Also, we've done a bad job of pro-actively offering people the option - one change we want to do is that after two weeks of waiting on an RMA you get an automated email saying "OMW, we suck, it's been two weeks - do you want a refund, or are you happy to wait?".

To the people stating that we don't support CC's because we have to pay the fee, and we do support EFT's because you have to pay it. Well, that's not really true - I'd have no issue paying the EFT charges. The EFT charge is usually around R10, I'll happily pay that (Infact, we happily pay the charges when you pay with cash at an FNB branch, which is more than the EFT charges). An amount of 4 to 5% through a CC processing gateway? That's much tougher to do! In order to accept CC's at this point, we would basically have to push our prices up for everyone, including those who pay via EFT. Now, considering the vast majority of our customers are happy paying EFTs, we've decided this is not the route to take at the moment.

You may also ask, why don't we just charge an extra amount for CCs? Well, unfortunately this is specifically against the terms of the CC companies, so we aren't allowed to do so.

Another question you might have - how can other companies offer this when Prophecy doesn't? Well, there are a few possibilities:

1. They sell something besides computer components that have a lower failure rate and a higher margin, so they don't mind losing out on CC payments, and can still make money. (Or they sell the same stuff as us, but at a higher margin.)
2. A small percentage of their orders are CC payments, and they lose money on these payments, but they make money on other orders so they don't mind.
3. They are quite a bit larger than us, so they have efficiencies of scale, and they get a better deal on CC payments.
4. They save money elsewhere in their business. For example, for us, if a supplier / manufacturer decides your card is out of warranty for no good reason, and I consider it to be within warranty, Prophecy will replace your card. Now, this doesn't happen often - but it does happen, and when it happens it costs us 100% of your amount, plus shipping! If we didn't do this and a couple of other things that our customers love but that cost us money, we could then offer CC payments. To be honest, I sleep better at night knowing that I cover my end of the bargain even when the supplier / manufacturer doesn't.

Finally, the last problem we had was incorrect charge backs. Believe it or not, on the 100's of CC transactions we had we never, ever had a legitimate charge back - IE, someone who took their money back because we didn't keep our end of the deal. However, we did have many customers who charged back accidentally - two months later they look at the CC bill and can't remember buying anything from us, so a charge back happens. Now, we have some time to respond to it, but because our processors where often late in telling us we could only respond after the charge back had gone through. The client then had to pay the amount again (after all, once we explained to them who we where they would generally say something like "freak sorry I didn't know it was you guys"), but by that time we've lost the original CC charge, the charge back charge, and so we are in the red on the order. (We've come up with some ideas to mitigate this problem in the future, but it's still a factor)
 
Paypal is an easier way to do purchases with your credit/debit card when compared to traditional merchant accounts. Of course they aren't going to have Paypal because of SARS. Payment is cheaper for me through EFT as I can do payment on my phone and it's free of bank charges. I highly doubt that a trustworthy/reliable store would decide not to refund their clients on request unless you are at fault.

You haven't been on the web long enough but both 800.com and DVDExpress were highly respected online stores which happened to file bankruptcy. There were endless posts in 2001/2 about this from customers who placed orders, were charged and the items never shipped - because the places shut down.

So everyone got their money back courtesy of Discover, Visa, MC.

If they'd wired the money across - they'd have lost out.

Secondly, the shop may not even want to cheat you. However, they may be too busy to reply or their customer support may be incapable of dealing with the issue. You have a safeguard of charging back for an unshipped product that way. Same with items you pay for only to discover that they're not in the country and may not be for the next 2-3 months.
 
All I will say is they have always given me excellent service and I will use them in the future.

I found that phoning them is much quicker, and you almost never have to hold.

Ordered quite a bit from them and never had a problem, willing to sort out RMAs everything. Yes sometimes they can be a little slow but they always come through.

I have dealt with the PH shop a number of times and never had any problems. I sent the owners of PH shop a link to this thread and I'm sure they will sort out problems in no time at all.

I have delt with them for a year or two, and never once had a problem. Great company to deal with and i will definately be buying from them again. (like today :P)

To eveyone who has had good experiences with us:

Thanks for your compliments! We appreciate it. We try hard to give great service, so it's awesome to know when we are getting it right.

I'll be honest, reading this thread last night on my iphone without being able to respond (as you may seem, I'm a bit verbose!) was torture - couldn't sleep! We put huge amounts of effort into our company, and whenever we have a negative post on our forum or another SA forum we feel like we've let ourselves down and let our customers down.

But what cheered me up a little was seeing that we have happy customers who are willing to respond on our behalf, even when we have messed up. As a potential customer reading this thread, I would obviously not be impressed by the first response, but it would be good to see that not everyone is having negative experiences!
 
RE the whole credit card thing:


We know customers want to pay with credit cards, and we definitely want to be able to receive credit cards. When I buy from an online shop I've never dealt with before, I definitely prefer to use a CC - so I completely understand where you are coming from. Now, before I continue - I'm not trying to make excuses below, or to say that what I've chosen is perfect for all our customers - obiously, it's not. As with every choice in business, when you have two choices you are often choosing between which group of customers to help and which to hurt! What I am doing is trying to explain to you guys the decisions we've made, to show that we are on top of things and trying to offer the best service possible.

Unfortunately, running the overall margin that we run, selling the products we sell, at the volumes we do, we are just at the tipping point of accepting credit cards being feasible. We have twice implemented and run a credit card system in the past, and we have twice had to stop running the system because of pressures on the margin and because of poor service from the CC company. I can tell you know - there's nothing more frustrating to a client getting charged twice, or getting charged and us not receiving the money!

CC implementation was a priority for us for 2009, unfortunately during the course of the year for various reasons we chose to implement other changes to our system - changes that we have seen huge improvements from in sales - bigger improvements than what we saw when implementing CC transactions previously, to be honest. We are frequently re-evaluating the CC situation, and as soon as we can make it work we will do it, but I can make no guarantee as to when that will be.

We are not the only South African online shop struggling with this issue: http://www.sybaritic.co.za/store/forum/viewtopic.php?t=146

To answer your question why the "Hacker safe" (Trust Guard) stuff if we don't accept credit cards? Well, it's specifically to respond to your point above about how you are dependant on us for a refund. We include those logos, and what they represent (that our physical address, phone number, and company registration information have been confirmed) specifically so that you will feel comfortable purchasing from us, knowing that we won't steal from you.

Because we know the lack of a charge back feature is a major concern for people paying with EFT's, we have taken the policy of always being very happy to do refunds. If something never arrives, we are happy to refund you. If you order something and it's the wrong thing because of our error, we are happy to refund you. If you order something and it's the wrong thing because of your mistake, but it's unopened, we are happy to refund you. If it's open, we still refund you, but less a restocking fee of 10 to 20% depending on the condition. If you have repeated failures of a product (IE, you buy something, it dies, we swap it out, it dies again, we swap it out, it dies again), we are happy to refund you. If you have a single failure but we can't get swap out stock after two weeks, we are happy to refund you. So far we've done a poor job of promoting our refunds / RMA / etc policy, but we are making changes to make it more well known. Also, we've done a bad job of pro-actively offering people the option - one change we want to do is that after two weeks of waiting on an RMA you get an automated email saying "OMW, we suck, it's been two weeks - do you want a refund, or are you happy to wait?".

To the people stating that we don't support CC's because we have to pay the fee, and we do support EFT's because you have to pay it. Well, that's not really true - I'd have no issue paying the EFT charges. The EFT charge is usually around R10, I'll happily pay that (Infact, we happily pay the charges when you pay with cash at an FNB branch, which is more than the EFT charges). An amount of 4 to 5% through a CC processing gateway? That's much tougher to do! In order to accept CC's at this point, we would basically have to push our prices up for everyone, including those who pay via EFT. Now, considering the vast majority of our customers are happy paying EFTs, we've decided this is not the route to take at the moment.

You may also ask, why don't we just charge an extra amount for CCs? Well, unfortunately this is specifically against the terms of the CC companies, so we aren't allowed to do so.

Another question you might have - how can other companies offer this when Prophecy doesn't? Well, there are a few possibilities:

1. They sell something besides computer components that have a lower failure rate and a higher margin, so they don't mind losing out on CC payments, and can still make money. (Or they sell the same stuff as us, but at a higher margin.)
2. A small percentage of their orders are CC payments, and they lose money on these payments, but they make money on other orders so they don't mind.
3. They are quite a bit larger than us, so they have efficiencies of scale, and they get a better deal on CC payments.
4. They save money elsewhere in their business. For example, for us, if a supplier / manufacturer decides your card is out of warranty for no good reason, and I consider it to be within warranty, Prophecy will replace your card. Now, this doesn't happen often - but it does happen, and when it happens it costs us 100% of your amount, plus shipping! If we didn't do this and a couple of other things that our customers love but that cost us money, we could then offer CC payments. To be honest, I sleep better at night knowing that I cover my end of the bargain even when the supplier / manufacturer doesn't.

Finally, the last problem we had was incorrect charge backs. Believe it or not, on the 100's of CC transactions we had we never, ever had a legitimate charge back - IE, someone who took their money back because we didn't keep our end of the deal. However, we did have many customers who charged back accidentally - two months later they look at the CC bill and can't remember buying anything from us, so a charge back happens. Now, we have some time to respond to it, but because our processors where often late in telling us we could only respond after the charge back had gone through. The client then had to pay the amount again (after all, once we explained to them who we where they would generally say something like "freak sorry I didn't know it was you guys"), but by that time we've lost the original CC charge, the charge back charge, and so we are in the red on the order. (We've come up with some ideas to mitigate this problem in the future, but it's still a factor)

Great explanation but as a consumer I still prefer to pay with a CC. I can understand distrust when you're buying a car or a high end workstation on CC but for smaller items it seems a pity you don't offer CC payments. Take2's prices aren't bad compared to yours and their service has been great thus far, from TSM days.

Thanks for the feedback anyway :).
 
You haven't been on the web long enough but both 800.com and DVDExpress were highly respected online stores which happened to file bankruptcy. There were endless posts in 2001/2 about this from customers who placed orders, were charged and the items never shipped - because the places shut down.

So everyone got their money back courtesy of Discover, Visa, MC.

If they'd wired the money across - they'd have lost out.

Secondly, the shop may not even want to cheat you. However, they may be too busy to reply or their customer support may be incapable of dealing with the issue. You have a safeguard of charging back for an unshipped product that way. Same with items you pay for only to discover that they're not in the country and may not be for the next 2-3 months.

All great points, Peter. I definitely see the benefits of CC transactions, and we hope to one day offer them.
 
Like you said, they had the time to reply plus not many online stores do it. After rereading the post the second half is full of excuses lol. The credit card situation also sounds like an excuse but I mainly do EFTs and PayPal anyway, so I ain't phased.

Paypal is terrible for merchants. They freeze accounts if buyers submit claims.

Read www.paypalsucks.com and the Ebay forums - even Slashdot for all the gripes with PP.
 
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