Soul Assassin
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No one buying new expensive GPUs are using PCIe 3.0 that was mainstream 10 years ago.
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More like 5.... don't confuse mainstream with latest. There are plently of PCIe 3 machines still running that don't need to be replaced just to upgrade a GPU, at full speed budget PCIe 4 GPU's running at 16x speed have at most a 10% speed or so reduction on PCIe 3.... which is perfectly acceptable. 8x however has major speed reduction on the same PC.
The morons literally don't understand the budget market.... or they tried to force people to buy last gen stock they did not want to buy.
Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
Just a side note on PCIe, it is not only speed which needs to be taken under consideration, but other metrics too, one in particular which is latency.
True enough but if you are on a budget and looking for a GPU.... you will be expecting an upgrade to keep things running not a paradigm shift that rocks your world. A bit of latency in comparison won't be THAT big an issue.... and if it is then you will either have to make do or find the money for a whole new PC.
Either way it's best the choice be left up to the user rather than trying to force him to give you money.... as if the latter ever ends well.
Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
Yeah, true, but then I will explore the used market. Latency though is not only noticeable but also experienced, in real-world tests, and when it is not optimal it has its quirks too. The problem with latency is that everything adds latency, and that some hardware can clash "in queue" or so to speak. Pathways are actively shortened as technology advances, and this is where LP/CAMM2 could prove to be advantageous.
In the current I am avoiding the used market, simply due to the prices, though there are deals to be had. For the most part, e-waste should be minimized. There is absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing used hardware. Just don't get gouged. Buyers should watch the trends. Ryzen 7000 will go on sale as it already did now in the US. I doubt AM5 motherboard prices will change... not with what I have been told, but I will wait and see.
At some point you will have to buy new. I have wanted to buy since 2019, and every time something new comes along where costs only increase, and well, the pandemic diminished my means. The trigger has to be pulled.
A lot of people are paranoid about used hardware after the crypto era periodically flooded the market with broken things.... I think a lot of people are extra paranoid about repasting GPU's..... it kinda feels wrong trying to open the flimsy things if nothing else.... and now there is degradation in CPU's as well to look out for. It's difficult to sell the second hand market as anything other than a gamble.
On the other hand given scalpers being very active....
Funny thing is I seem to alternate between 2nd hand and new. Got a new Core2 Duo in 2008 abouts, then a 2nd hand i2700 in about 2015 (along with my forever 300r Corsair chassis), then a new i8700 in 2019 when the previous started behaving weirdly randomly losing power to USB devices (turns out later it was a win7 issue but the upgrade was a major improvement anyway). I remember the R15k for the last upgrade being rather painful.... and now a good upgrade would be about R20k new. I have literally gotten to the point where a new good GPU plus required PSU equals the last system upgrade where the previous GPU new was only R3.5k.
So yes speaking for myself.... unless there are major price reductions I just cannot justify not going 2nd hand once again in 2025/2026. Excepting the PSU which I probably will buy new just in case. It will be a cruel joke if I now buy a PCIe 4 new upgrade and within a few years everything switches to PCIe 5 leaving me in the same position I am in once again.
longboy
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The cost of a top-end Gaming PC now is outrageous...
It can go right up to ~R255k if you buy the best components.
PC Builder - Wootware
Use the PC Builder to build your new epic computer for gaming, office, or personal use. Easily choose components for each hardware category and assist with compatibility. Woot up your life using the Wootware PC Builder today.
A practical example for a mid-end gaming complete setup with monitor/accessories is ~R34k.
PC Builder - Wootware
Use the PC Builder to build your new epic computer for gaming, office, or personal use. Easily choose components for each hardware category and assist with compatibility. Woot up your life using the Wootware PC Builder today.
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Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
For those who are interested in how AMD and Nvidia do ray tracing, there is this article:
The article might shine some light on engineering decisions made by both companies, and hint at the Micron results I have posted earlier. I am no engineer, but I am curious whether AMD could use their Ryzen CPUs, in particular those with more than one CCD, to assist their Radeon GPUs with cache. Though I can imagine the issues. They already do SAM. Say it is possible, the improvement will be minimal, and possibly with worsened latency in RT. I dunno, perhaps this is the RT engine upgrade that RDNA 4 will have... but it should be possible with RDNA 3 too.
RDNA 5 will be the catch-up to Nvidia, possibly a generation behind. The link is a good read.
The article might shine some light on engineering decisions made by both companies, and hint at the Micron results I have posted earlier. I am no engineer, but I am curious whether AMD could use their Ryzen CPUs, in particular those with more than one CCD, to assist their Radeon GPUs with cache. Though I can imagine the issues. They already do SAM. Say it is possible, the improvement will be minimal, and possibly with worsened latency in RT. I dunno, perhaps this is the RT engine upgrade that RDNA 4 will have... but it should be possible with RDNA 3 too.
RDNA 5 will be the catch-up to Nvidia, possibly a generation behind. The link is a good read.
Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
The cost of a top-end Gaming PC now is outrageous...
It can go right up to ~R255k if you buy the best components.
This is an extreme example.PC Builder - Wootware
Use the PC Builder to build your new epic computer for gaming, office, or personal use. Easily choose components for each hardware category and assist with compatibility. Woot up your life using the Wootware PC Builder today.builder.wootware.co.za
A practical example for a mid-end gaming complete setup with monitor/accessories is ~R34k.
PC Builder - Wootware
Use the PC Builder to build your new epic computer for gaming, office, or personal use. Easily choose components for each hardware category and assist with compatibility. Woot up your life using the Wootware PC Builder today.
Lol, that is overkill. It is also best to use non-silicon based thermal paste unless you run 3DMark all day long to set records. Deepcool IMHO make the best AIOs. So much to cut back on.
HOWEVER, you added a 14900KS without considering installing a Secure Frame™
Just use Pop!_OS
Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
This said, I am currently compiling a second reasonably priced PC, and the target is reachable within budget. Not going to post the build since I am waiting on Ryzen 9000 and the new AM5 boards to release.
longboy
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Lol, that is overkill. It is also best to use non-silicon based thermal paste unless you run 3DMark all day long to set records. Deepcool IMHO make the best AIOs. So much to cut back on.
HOWEVER, you added a 14900KS without considering installing a Secure Frame™
Just use Pop!_OS
That's where I would disagree politely. Lian-Li makes a lot better AIO's.
As for the the Secure Frame, it was not available to purchase there lol I looked
longboy
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I'd like to see the cost saving/performance vs. an AM5 and an LGA1700 similar setup.
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Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
Price comparison?
As for the the Secure Frame, it was not available to purchase there lol I looked
I dunno if this means I am just old but I remember when a R50k PC was outrageous.... now it's almost the norm all components considered.
Neoprod
Honorary Master
People are over-influenced by benchmarks and the deluge of information coming out of 'tubers and tech media in general. I helped a friend on a tight budget get a machine together for 13 grand that lets him play pretty much whatever he wants at 1080p ultra (sometimes using FSR with frame gen). Even Cyberpunk runs at over 100 fps with the frame gen mod. Now he wants a higher hz monitor
That machine is good enough for him and he's quite happy with it but he's not into tech in general so he doesn't have any envy over the overkill hardware that 'tubers review (often for free) and recommend.
Neoprod
Honorary Master
I get this - kind of in the same boat but luckily, I'm also a slow upgrader. My CPU supports gen 4, my motherboard does not while my GPU is Gen 4 x16 so it doesn't matter really. Come upgrade time though I'll probably have to retire everything.
I remember when splashing out 2,5 grand on an 8800 GTS was a splurge ...nowadays, that barely gets you something mid-range
Neoprod
Honorary Master
The Rand decided to slowly die at the same time everything became 3 times more expensive globally..... what a time to not want to be alive....I get this - kind of in the same boat but luckily, I'm also a slow upgrader. My CPU supports gen 4, my motherboard does not while my GPU is Gen 4 x16 so it doesn't matter really. Come upgrade time though I'll probably have to retire everything.
I remember when splashing out 2,5 grand on an 8800 GTS was a splurge ...nowadays, that barely gets you something mid-range
Fulcrum29
Honorary Master
I get this - kind of in the same boat but luckily, I'm also a slow upgrader. My CPU supports gen 4, my motherboard does not while my GPU is Gen 4 x16 so it doesn't matter really. Come upgrade time though I'll probably have to retire everything.
I remember when splashing out 2,5 grand on an 8800 GTS was a splurge ...nowadays, that barely gets you something mid-range
My brother gave me an EVGA e-GeForce 8800 GTS Superclocked, lol. 320 MB DDR3. The DX 10.0 era. When I was a teen I saved a bit and bought a Radeon 8500, it sucked, ruined by GeForce supremacy. The old days.
The list is long, but I had an Nvidia 6800 GT, 7950 GT, and in these same times I also had a Radeon X800 XT, X1800 XT. I had the 7950 GT and I couldn't play the new DX 10 titles so when my brother moved he gave me his 8800 GTS.
Then I purchased a Radeon HD 4870 which I then upgraded to an HD 4890. Around this time I stopped gaming. Got back into things and purchased a R9 280X, along with the CPU I still use today, lol.
I remember the 1990s well too, and I haven't even got into the CPUs and my obsession with overclocking. We did custom cases, gutting cases to make them better. I miss those days. Those DFI LANParty boards were lekker clockers. Had some value Soltek clockers too, but they tended to have their caps pop.
The awe when someone bought a GeForce2 Ultra. I remember it like yesterday.
BTW, I have never sold a PC component, always gave it away.
Neoprod
Honorary Master
Bruh, I remember tripling the clock speed of my K6-2 back in the day when such things were possible. Barton, Q6600, 2500k, 6600k - all overclocking beasts.
Funny story I might have told on here before - I ordered a Q6600 from Cyberdyne back when they weren't B2B only and said I wanted a specific revision of the cpu. They said no, you'll get what we give you so I asked for my money back. Back and forth for awhile till they eventually returned my cash...they had an attitude about people overclocking hardware like it was any of their business.
The Radeon 4850 was actually a very good card for it's time - also had some headroom and was competitive. Tbh, that period till maybe mid-2010's was the golden era for people willing to tinker. Nowadays, the ROI is marginal except for cooler, quieter, more efficient which is still worth it but you can't turn stuff into something a tier or 2 better anymore.