NHI paper released for public comment

[TheHiveMind]

He re-affirmed the government's commitment to appoint the right people in the right positions to ensure there was no abuse of the system.

So:

1) You did not have a similar intention for other government projects that have failed.

2) You did have that intention, but they were overruled by reality, and they failed anyway.

Which is it?

 

[warchylde]

I took a stroll down the street this morning to the gov hospital down the road - the emergency room was full with one doctor attending (counted about a 100 people waiting to be attended to)

Took a stroll around the corner for the GP waiting room - over 200 people, most of them have been there since 6 am to get to the front of the queue. I asked one or two if they have been there before and how long does it take to get helped. Average appears to be 4 to 6 hour wait in the waiting room.

When I had my heart attack the medi city I went to had 2 people in the emergency room, I was helped immediately. With follow ups I could actually make appointments for a specific time with my specialist (you can't do this with the GP at the gov hospital apparently)

So here are my concerns:

I already pay 25% of my salary to Discovery (just for myself and I am getting married soon so this will increase) now they want to add an additional tax? That means I have to let go of my "private" healthcare. Wonder who will be paying for my chronic ticker meds?

So everytime I get sick (GP sick not emergency room sick) I will have to go sit in that room with a ton of other people while coughing, sneezing, wheezing and feeling like death for 4 to 6 hours?

I just love how the gov is making sure that its becoming almost impossible to have a good life.

in 1994 the ANC promised us freedom and life

in 2011 we discovered they failed to mention that the freedom and life will be drenched in misery and suffering.

Congratulations you fools, you just took another major step in destroying our beautiful country.

 

[DJ...]

My calculations are probably HORRIBLY off so forgive me.

But Income for the guavamint was R834bn in 2008/2009. Of this 26% came from VAT.

That equates to R261.84bn from VAT. This means each % of VAT should roughly equate to about R18.7bn. So an extra % won't do much to cover the NHI. They would need to hike VAT by another 12% to cover the NHI in its final form (assuming it'll cost R225bn per year)

Your numbers are a bit wrong - I think you're looking at spending and not collections. Their revenue target for 2011/2012 is only R741bn.

In 2010, SARS collected R647bn of which R184bn was VAT. A 1% increase would see an additional R2bn, that's all. You'd need to more than double VAT to add an additional R225bn, even using the current revenue forecasts and the same VAT split...

 

[ToxicBunny]

Your numbers are a bit wrong - I think you're looking at spending and not collections. Their revenue target for 2011/2012 is only R741bn.

In 2010, SARS collected R647bn of which R184bn was VAT. A 1% increase would see an additional R2bn, that's all. You'd need to more than double VAT to add an additional R225bn, even using the current revenue forecasts and the same VAT split...

The R834bn I got was an income figure, not a budgetary figure.. unless the report I looked at doesn't know the difference (which is entirely possible).

But I took the assumption that the poster meant a 1% increase in the VAT rate, which even based on your figures would only net an increase of R13.14bn (roughly), so to get to R225bn, they would need to hike VAT by approximately 17%, and we would end up with a VAT rate of around 31%

 

[Hansolo]

NHI just means they can steal more money how has it been different with anything else they've done? All horrible failures!More than half of the money won't even go to hospitals which need them but into fat politicians pockets, I wonder how many hospital tenders Juju can get now?

 

[DJ...]

The R834bn I got was an income figure

Which includes parastatal income, so you can't use a percentage of VAT on that figure because they don't caluclate it that way...

But I took the assumption that the poster meant a 1% increase in the VAT rate, which even based on your figures would only net an increase of R13.14bn (roughly), so to get to R225bn, they would need to hike VAT by approximately 17%, and we would end up with a VAT rate of around 31%

A 1% increase of VAT doesn't equal R13bn. How did you come to that figure? VAT accounted for R184bn in 2010, so working on that figure, 1% equals R1,84bn...

so to get to R225bn, they would need to hike VAT by approximately 17%, and we would end up with a VAT rate of around 31%

No, if VAT alone were to fund this, we'd require a 23% increase to around the 40% mark...

 

[ToxicBunny]

Which includes parastatal income, so you can't use a percentage of VAT on that figure because they don't caluclate it that way...



A 1% increase of VAT doesn't equal R13bn. How did you come to that figure? VAT accounted for R184bn in 2010, so working on that figure, 1% equals R1,84bn...



No, if VAT alone were to fund this, we'd require a 23% increase to around the 40% mark...

I think we're looking at this from different points of view.

Not a 1% increase in the total revenues generated from VAT, but increasing VAT by 1%... from 14% to 15%.

 

[DreamKing]

A 1% increase of VAT doesn't equal R13bn. How did you come to that figure? VAT accounted for R184bn in 2010, so working on that figure, 1% equals R1,84bn...

it is R13bn. nothing wrong.
but you are wrong.

 

[Hansolo]

The government's plan to get 5-million taxpayers to fund healthcare for the other 45-million got off to a shaky start this morning as hundreds of thousands of taxpayers reacted.

Asked what guarantees taxpayers would have that their R125-billion would not be stolen or lost by corrupt and incompetent redeployed cadres, Tshabalala laughed.

When he had finished laughing and wiped the tears from his cheeks, he explained that the Health Ministry was staffed by “doctors, not accountants”.

“Well, actually we're not doctors either, we’re politicians with a half-completed undergraduate degrees, but the point is, we’re the boss of you, so shut up.”

 

[Vrotappel]

What is this but the nationalisation of our medical aids?

 

[Gushesh]

I read on News24 somewhere that there won't be increased income taxes for individuals for the first five years from 2012.
The health minister also eluded to this today on the Justice Malala show. I cant seem to find this in the green paper though.
If not from individual taxes how would the government come up with R125bn next year for the first year of the NHI?

 

[daveza]

If not from individual taxes how would the government come up with R125bn next year for the first year of the NHI?

By means of mandatory contributions from individuals and employers.

This is by no means tax, but simply a deduction from your salary and given to government.

 

[air]

If not from individual taxes how would the government come up with R125bn next year for the first year of the NHI?

my 2c, they do not require an extra 125B, but purely the difference between current health budget for 2012 and the 'NHI' amount of R125B.

 

[UnUnOctium]

it is R13bn. nothing wrong.
but you are wrong.

+1

The government's plan to get 5-million taxpayers to fund healthcare for the other 45-million got off to a shaky start this morning as hundreds of thousands of taxpayers reacted.

Asked what guarantees taxpayers would have that their R125-billion would not be stolen or lost by corrupt and incompetent redeployed cadres, Tshabalala laughed.

When he had finished laughing and wiped the tears from his cheeks, he explained that the Health Ministry was staffed by “doctors, not accountants”.

“Well, actually we're not doctors either, we’re politicians with a half-completed undergraduate degrees, but the point is, we’re the boss of you, so shut up.”

LOL

What is this but the nationalisation of our medical aids?

No, nobody is stopping you from keeping your medical aid. Their structure is unchanged.

 

[Gushesh]

By means of mandatory contributions from individuals and employers.

This is by no means tax, but simply a deduction from your salary and given to government.

So similar to UIF deductions.
Now all we need to know is what this amount will be.

 

[Vrotappel]

+1







No, nobody is stopping you from keeping your medical aid. Their structure is unchanged.

By forcing you to pay for the NHI? There are different ways to force people...

 

[UnUnOctium]

By forcing you to pay for the NHI? There are different ways to force people...

Your medical aid will still be owned by the same people and therefore it is not nationalised.

I still doubt very much that this plan will go through as the medical aid scumbags have way too many fingers in the healthcare pie unfortunately.

 

[daveza]

I still doubt very much that this plan will go through as the medical aid scumbags have way too many fingers in the healthcare pie unfortunately.

The ANC have bigger fingers.

 

[warchylde]

The ANC have bigger fingers.

I think they are up to the wrist already if you get what I mean.

 

[alloytoo]

Transfer of wealth doesn't improve healthcare or reduce costs. All it means is that now other people get the healthcare you pay for via taxes and you receive worse healthcare. Or, if you remain under private healthcare, then you are in effect increasing the cost of healthcare in addition to redistributing wealth.

NEWSFLASH, this is what's happening already. You are paying for state healthcare as well as your private one.

Generally there are large waiting times in all NHI/NHS or socialised healthcare systems. This is due to the increases in demand caused by it.

There must be an echo.....

- The state doesn't do anything. Its people and taxes who pay for it.

Well done, now you understand english.

- Profits in a market demonstrate that wealth or value in a society has been enhanced. If people are willing to pay R100 and that includes 25% GP, then it means that the buyers of healthcare, value the services they receive, more than the sum of the individual components (Doctors Salary, Equipment) and the mere fact we have profits demonstrate those resources are creating value and should not go to other areas. (Mises demonstrated in the 1920's I believe that no economic calculation can be done unless you have pure market prices, the best socialist economists at the time couldn't refute him and instead thanked him for teaching them the importance of market prices in economic planning. This has not been refuted to this day.)

And there I was valuing my property worth insuring for fire. Well done me. Only my neighbour didn't. No fire brigade to call when his property began buring so it raged on until it became uncontrollable...that's when my building caught fire....oops too late... the fire was uncontrollable.

The Myth of Efficient Government Service http://mises.org/daily/1471
- If the state is paying funds for 100% of the population and less than 100% use it, then you have an overallocation of resources and is inefficient.

The only myth is that an efficent state service provides dedicated resouces for 100% of the population, and that the remainder is wasted. What an infantile notion.

- Private healthcare insures those who voluntary decide to buy insurance. If people were wealthier more people would be able to afford it and pay for insurance and products according to their needs and desires.

"Needs and desires" is a value judgement, typically people who perceive they are of higher risk buy private health insurance.

- I do't know how you can make any value judgements on socio-economic conditions. Yes, someone who is healthier is generally more productive.

I'll let this stand for itself.

But giving people things for free also acts as a disincentive.

Another value judgement.

If nothing else socialism and welfarism as shown it is difficult to get people to work hard when you give them all they need for "free". Since you cannot measure the effects of both these forces, you cannot make a statement such as there is a "net increase" in productivity, as you can never demonstrate this.

You assume that the uninsured don't work hard, and then lead to the assumption that them being healthy won't positively effect their productivity.

Non sequitur.

See link above, the Myth of an efficient Government service.

Non sequitur.

The services provides service to those who need it and like private institutions provision accordingly. Universal access <> universal service.