Nuclear no match for Renewables

Chevron said:
Except the most important one. Reliability. We need power when we need it. Not only when the sun shines or the wind is blowing.
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I always wonder about this when people say they need power even when sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing.
It's like people have never heard of batteries before :wtf:
 
C4Cat said:
I always wonder about this when people say they need power even when sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing.
It's like people have never heard of batteries before :wtf:
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Do you even know how batteries are made?

If you want to punt how environmentally friendly solar is maybe look at the impact of the batteries and production of solar cells before you talk.

Or even just how big and expensive the batteries will need to be to power whole cities...
 
Chevron said:
Do you even know how batteries are made?

If you want to punt how environmentally friendly solar is maybe look at the impact of the batteries and production of solar cells before you talk.

Or even just how big and expensive the batteries will need to be to power whole cities...
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Many ways to store solar and wind without using 'batteries'. Hydro, salt, air to name a few.
 
Chevron said:
Do you even know how batteries are made?

If you want to punt how environmentally friendly solar is maybe look at the impact of the batteries and production of solar cells before you talk.

Or even just how big and expensive the batteries will need to be to power whole cities...
Click to expand...

I didn't say anything about being it more environmentally friendly, I've no idea, but it's definitely a more sustainable fuel source. We're not going to run out of sun anytime soon and it's also less risky than nuclear.

Regarding batteries, Elon Musk estimated it would require around 2 billion Tesla Powerpacks (each about the size of a fridge) to switch the entire world over to renewable power stored in batteries - that’s about how many cars and trucks are on the planet’s roads, so it's not impossible.
It would be expensive but so is nuclear as our beloved zuma has shown. And I've no doubt that if the focus and commitment was made to solar and wind and other renewable resources, prices would come down, energy collectors would become more efficient, batteries would become cheaper and more environmentally friendly and the whole industry would develop dramatically. One only has to look at how much cheaper ans more efficient solar panels are now compared to 10 years ago to see this is true.

Another huge advantage to going renewable is that it allows individual households to store energy and not be dependent on the state for power. I doubt we'll see mini nuclear reactors in anyone's household anytime soon.
 
lcbxx said:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...a-nuclear-reactor-in-every-home-car-and-plane
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We'll yes, if you want to indulge in fantasy there are many options.
Cold fusion is a hypothesized type of nuclear reaction that would occur at, or near, room temperature. This is compared with the "hot" fusion which takes place naturally within stars, under immense pressure and at temperatures of millions of degrees, and distinguished from muon-catalyzed fusion. There is currently no accepted theoretical model which would allow cold fusion to occur.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
 
ngwe23 said:
Oh, when I said renewables I meant solar and wind mainly. I thought that was obvious because for SA a hyrostation is not an option.
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Some mild sarcasm for you - :p

Is that why we're busy building Hydro plants then? As its not an option?
Strange. I guess Ingula was a figment of my imagination, as are the other plants in build process.

https://www.enca.com/south-africa/first-sa-hydroelectric-plant-power-northern-cape (smaller, but still viable)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingula_Pumped_Storage_Scheme (1300MW when running, although will be over schedule...)

We have 2,192MW of hydro already locally, and we import another 1500MW from Cahora Bassa in Moz.

Full list here under Hydro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_South_Africa

I will admit that we are pretty tapped out when it comes to places to build, but Lesotho has a *lot* of potential (gigawatts of storage) and its smack dab inside SA.

Given that most of our generation is coal (40GW odd although closer to 28GW usable some days due to lack of maintenance..). Solar, Wind and Hydro would work wonderfully to reduce pollution, and be fastest to implement, as well as far far cheaper than Nuclear.
 
lsheed_cn said:
Some mild sarcasm for you - :p

Is that why we're busy building Hydro plants then? As its not an option?
Strange. I guess Ingula was a figment of my imagination, as are the other plants in build process.

https://www.enca.com/south-africa/first-sa-hydroelectric-plant-power-northern-cape (smaller, but still viable)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingula_Pumped_Storage_Scheme (1300MW when running, although will be over schedule...)

We have 2,192MW of hydro already locally, and we import another 1500MW from Cahora Bassa in Moz.

Full list here under Hydro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_South_Africa

I will admit that we are pretty tapped out when it comes to places to build, but Lesotho has a *lot* of potential (gigawatts of storage) and its smack dab inside SA.

Given that most of our generation is coal (40GW odd although closer to 28GW usable some days due to lack of maintenance..). Solar, Wind and Hydro would work wonderfully to reduce pollution, and be fastest to implement, as well as far far cheaper than Nuclear.
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So what you are saying is that we should invade Lesotho.

I approve.
:twisted:
 
C4Cat said:
I always wonder about this when people say they need power even when sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing.
It's like people have never heard of batteries before :wtf:
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lolz. You mean like a UPS that powers heavy industry?
 
ngwe23 said:
lolz. You mean like a UPS that powers heavy industry?
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More like this: http://www.wired.com/2015/05/tesla-batteries/

Utilities need way, way more power. That’s why Tesla is making the Powerpack “infinitely scaleable,” Musk says: You can pile together as many as you want. Several partners have signed up, including Southern California Edison. And you need just 2 billion of these things to switch the entire world over to renewable power stored in batteries. That’s how many cars and trucks are on the planet’s roads, Musk says.
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lsheed_cn said:
We have 2,192MW of hydro already locally, and we import another 1500MW from Cahora Bassa in Moz.

Full list here under Hydro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_South_Africa

I will admit that we are pretty tapped out when it comes to places to build, but Lesotho has a *lot* of potential (gigawatts of storage) and its smack dab inside SA.
Click to expand...

Most of the hydro plants in that list are pumped storage schemes, which do not really classify as renewable energy, but rather compliments renewable energy to help with peak demand. SA is water scarce, thus we will never have any significant amount of hydro power.

Lesotho already generates electricity from the water flowing out of Katse to SA, and hopefully more such stations are built along with the next dams that are planned.
 
ngwe23 said:
You know there is a difference between possible and feasible, right?
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Yes, of course. You don't think it's feasible?
Lucky, people like Elon Musk and companies like Google do think it's feasible and are investing large sums of money to make it happen.
 
konfab said:
Ever seen the environmental cost of hydro (the only one that is up to the task).
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No, never looked into it, if you have any decent links, please forward, I'll add to my reading list.

I would have thought the salt tanks would have been better option to hydro. They store the heat for weeks, never need replacing, salt lasts until you no longer need it, and its cheap.(from what I've browsed over, again, never gone into detail so correct me if wrong)
 
C4Cat said:
Yes, of course. You don't think it's feasible?
Lucky, people like Elon Musk and companies like Google do think it's feasible and are investing large sums of money to make it happen.
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For now, no. Which is why these companies are investing said money, obviously.
 
ellyally said:
No, never looked into it, if you have any decent links, please forward, I'll add to my reading list.

I would have thought the salt tanks would have been better option to hydro. They store the heat for weeks, never need replacing, salt lasts until you no longer need it, and its cheap.(from what I've browsed over, again, never gone into detail so correct me if wrong)
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belo_Monte_Dam#Environmental_effects
The area you are filling with water will get changed irreparably. That means loss of biodiversity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam#Environmental_impact
The river downstream of the dam has considerably reduced flow rate, increasing silt build up. Not to mention concentrating any existing pollution. This is an issue in China.

The only real solution to our energy problems is fusion IMO. Everything else is a stop gap measure.
 
ngwe23 said:
For now, no. Which is why these companies are investing said money, obviously.
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Companies are investing money in an idea that's not feasible? :wtf: ok...

It may not be practical yet, but it's definitely feasible.
Feasible by definition means something that's not currently being done but which we're capable of doing if we choose to.
The fact that we can't switch over tomorrow doesn't make it less feasible.
The fact that it might take some time to to implement doesn't make it less feasible.
But whatever, no point arguing about definitions
 
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