Nuclear no match for Renewables

Most of the hydro plants in that list are pumped storage schemes, which do not really classify as renewable energy, but rather compliments renewable energy to help with peak demand. SA is water scarce, thus we will never have any significant amount of hydro power.

Lesotho already generates electricity from the water flowing out of Katse to SA, and hopefully more such stations are built along with the next dams that are planned.

Hydro definitely classes as renewable energy. Its the gold standard for renewable energy for insert diety of choice here's sake!

Pumped storage is perfect paired with renewables too. The cheapest large scale storage we have is hydro.
Flow batteries, compressed air storage and Lithium are making headway into that though, but hydro is by far the cheapest large scale storage.

There is plenty of opportunity to add gigawatts of hydro based storage in Southern Africa (including Lesotho), and potentially 40 odd additional gigawatt's if Grand Inga ever gets built.
 
Pretty much ;)

Invade Lesotho, finish the hydro electric stuff we've been threatening to build there for decades, move back out and setup HVDC lines off to where its needed :D

One small problem. I don't think our current defence force could find lesotho, much less mount a successful assault.
 
Companies are investing money in an idea that's not feasible? :wtf: ok...

It may not be practical yet, but it's definitely feasible.
Feasible by definition means something that's not currently being done but which we're capable of doing if we choose to.
The fact that we can't switch over tomorrow doesn't make it less feasible.
The fact that it might take some time to to implement doesn't make it less feasible.
But whatever, no point arguing about definitions

Though as much. You have no ideas what you are talking about.

Adjective: feasible
|fee‑zu‑bul|
Capable of being done with means at hand and circumstances as they are •*They found a set of feasible solutions
=executable, practicable, viable, workable, possible

Something that is impractical, even though it may be physically possible, is not feasible. I don't blame you though, I blame our horrible education system.
 
Though as much. You have no ideas what you are talking about.



Something that is impractical, even though it may be physically possible, is not feasible. I don't blame you though, I blame our horrible education system.
I already pointed out that it's pointless arguing over definitions, but of you insist...

I like the way you make up your own definition and format it so that it looks like it's from a dictionary. That's not dishonest at all. Here are some real dictionary definitions:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feasible
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feasible
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/feasible
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/feasible
You'll notice none of them say anything about "with means at hand and circumstances as they are" - you added that yourself to support your bullying argument, and unfounded accusations that I'm ignorant and uneducated.

Even using your made up definition, how can you say it isn't feasible when Tesla is already producing the batteries and has already designed them to be interconnected. It's already started so yes, it's certainly capable of being done with means at hand.

Oh, and I wasn't educated here, but you clearly were.
Go play with the other children ngwe23, if you've nothing serious to contribute and are only here to mock people.
 
While solar in the karoo is cheap, many of those farms aren't hooked up to the grid due to infrastructure costs.

It's not cheap though. People think it's cheap because the read articles and opinions on the internets...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaXu_Solar_One

A billion dollars for 100MW

96 of those = 9600MW = 3 nuclear power stations.

=1 trillion rand....

Futhermore for you billion rand 100MW solar plant you receive 320GWh of annual generation

Koeberg's annual generation is 760GWh per 100MW.
 
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It's not cheap though. People think it's cheap because the read articles and opinions on the internets...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaXu_Solar_One

A billion dollars for 100MW

96 of those = 9600MW = 3 nuclear power stations.

=1 trillion rand....

Futhermore for you billion rand 100MW solar plant you receive 320GWh of annual generation

Koeberg's annual generation is 760GWh per 100MW.

It's cheap in the context of renewables.

In general renewables are expensive. We already know this. It's one of the reasons Nuclear is better. Which we have been saying all along.

Follow the thread.
 
It's not cheap though. People think it's cheap because the read articles and opinions on the internets...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaXu_Solar_One

A billion dollars for 100MW

96 of those = 9600MW = 3 nuclear power stations.

=1 trillion rand....

Futhermore for you billion rand 100MW solar plant you receive 320GWh of annual generation

Koeberg's annual generation is 760GWh per 100MW.

Where do you get that it's a billion dollars for 100MW?

According to the Wikipedia article you linked to it was 860 million dollars :confused:

Also you need to include operating costs, fuel costs, decommissioning and waste disposal costs
 
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It's not cheap though. People think it's cheap because the read articles and opinions on the internets...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaXu_Solar_One

A billion dollars for 100MW

96 of those = 9600MW = 3 nuclear power stations.

=1 trillion rand....

Futhermore for you billion rand 100MW solar plant you receive 320GWh of annual generation

Koeberg's annual generation is 760GWh per 100MW.

It's not a billion.
 
Where do you get that it's a billion dollars for 100MW?

According to the Wikipedia article you linked to it was 860 million dollars :confused:

Also you need to include operating costs, fuel costs, decommissioning and waste disposal costs

Really? Christ it's close enough.

And you need to include the costs of a $0.86 billion solar power station (which per MW cost the same as nuclear) sitting on idle for half of the year...

Mentioning operating costs is pointless if you don't include actual economic benefit from having these plants.
 
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Really? Christ it's close enough.

And you need to include the costs of a $0.86 billion solar power station (which per MW cost the same as nuclear) sitting on idle for half of the year...

Mentioning operating costs is pointless if you don't include actual economic benefit from having these plants.

140 million dollar difference is not 'close enough' - it's a lot of money. And operating costs are not insignificant. Nuclear power requires immense ongoing operating and maintenance costs, one slight malfunction or cooling problem can shut it down, not to mention being incredibly dangerous.
 
140 million dollar difference is not 'close enough' - it's a lot of money. And operating costs are not insignificant. Nuclear power requires immense ongoing operating and maintenance costs, one slight malfunction or cooling problem can shut it down, not to mention being incredibly dangerous.

Sigh....

Every night a solar array shuts down. Every night. It "malfunctions" every night. Every night at 6pm when demand is usually high, it's shuts down.

I will spell this out one last time for you. Per 100MW the KaXu solar array averages a annual output of 320GWh. Per 100MW Koeberg averages a annual output of 760GWh (malfunctions, refueling, outages and all). Do you understand this?

Do you understand that this is a difference of 440GWh. Do you understand that this ADDS huge economic value to a power station???

Do you understand that you have to take this huge difference in annual normalized generation into you cost calculation as well?

They are not incredibly dangerous. Do you fly? If you think a nuclear power station is "incredibly dangerous", please refrain from flying in a aircraft.
 
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Sigh....

Every night a solar array shuts down. Every night. It "malfunctions" every night. Every night at 6pm when demand is usually high, it's shuts down.

Snip...

I dunno, there appear to be factors you are not taking into account in the long term. So maybe we would have a few nuclear reactors up and running by 2025, more likely 2030 (given Medupi and Kusile delays). This doesn't really help in the short term, or help with the end of life factor of our coal fired stations. And the additional baseload will only come onstream then anyways.

If Medupi and Kusile finally come onstream that should improve base load. Whether these will happen in time is debatable. The nuclear build will almost certainly be subject to the same sort of delays given who is managing it.

In the meanwhile we could build a bunch of solar, wind and CSP (salt) plants funded by business rather than the government. Resulting in less long term debt for the country as a whole. They would also be more distributed, so long distance transmission is less of an issue.

Infrastructure (and maintenance of said) would still be an issue of course, but essentially that is what got us here in the first instance. This is not something that is going to go away in the short term.

While your numbers may be good on paper for a preference for nuclear, given the prevailing conditions in South Africa they don't hold up given our short term needs, and the long term debt that government will incur on our behalf going nuclear.

So, I am not arguing your pure maths regarding nuclear vs renewables, I am arguing that is not the right solution for ZA at the moment. Which is what I think the original article was trying to articulate.

And Isheed has valiantly defended.
 
I dunno, there appear to be factors you are not taking into account in the long term. So maybe we would have a few nuclear reactors up and running by 2025, more likely 2030 (given Medupi and Kusile delays). This doesn't really help in the short term, or help with the end of life factor of our coal fired stations. And the additional baseload will only come onstream then anyways.

If Medupi and Kusile finally come onstream that should improve base load. Whether these will happen in time is debatable. The nuclear build will almost certainly be subject to the same sort of delays given who is managing it.

In the meanwhile we could build a bunch of solar, wind and CSP (salt) plants funded by business rather than the government. Resulting in less long term debt for the country as a whole. They would also be more distributed, so long distance transmission is less of an issue.

Infrastructure (and maintenance of said) would still be an issue of course, but essentially that is what got us here in the first instance. This is not something that is going to go away in the short term.

While your numbers may be good on paper for a preference for nuclear, given the prevailing conditions in South Africa they don't hold up given our short term needs, and the long term debt that government will incur on our behalf going nuclear.

So, I am not arguing your pure maths regarding nuclear vs renewables, I am arguing that is not the right solution for ZA at the moment. Which is what I think the original article was trying to articulate.

And Isheed has valiantly defended.

And then you completely forget to mention the fact about wind power which would produce more during the evening peak than at any other time of the day (the wind picks up after dark).
Nuclear is often subsidized, especially in places like France, it's costs are escalating to huge proportions compared to solar/wind which require very little maintenance/materials. Most renewables the start-up capital is the most expensive thing, nuclear you also need to factor waste disposal costs (renting an area for waste for a millenia), decomissioning, etc.
 
I'll nitpick one thing - nuclear is technically safer than solar - more people have been killed per TWh via solar power, than via nuclear. Not by a big margin mind you, but it is weird to think solar is more dangerous :p But heck, either one is 1000 times safer than coal :erm:

As for stability? What about Germany, isn't their grid a mess thanks to solar? Sure, maybe that is because they did it wrong, but going renewable does not automatically translate into a more stable grid

Yes their grid is the mess and they made a stupid mistake by dismantling their nuclear powers programme, they now have to subsidies their coal power stations (emitting more CO2) to have a backup when the renewables cannot produce what they can. on the contrary France is mostly nuclear powered and has tons of 2ndary industries that sis involved in the nuclear power cycle. It is a worthwhile investment, the problem is that the deal will be corrupt, however anything with Eskom and in this country is corrupt. So you cannot single out nuclear on that point alone.
 
I do think you're being specious.

Nuclear industry is only large scale. Large scale construction projects have deaths during construction, regardless of safety measures in place. Large scale solar also has deaths, but at a far lower scale, as large scale solar is mostly at ground level.
Simply not true at all, nuclear safety standards are enormously high, also their cleanliness stanards before commsioning can start. Look at flamanville that is currently being built by AREVA, no deaths to date.


You may as well say that going up on the roof is marginally more dangerous than working in a nuclear plant, as thats what it really boils down to. The figures that were published for Nuclear are also highly suspect - they don't include a number of plant deaths like the ones in Russia (no, not Chernobyl, the other ones).
As a dead serious and not sarcastic question, do you even know a thing about health and safety standards? The amount of nuclear standards that we have a Koeberg is by far in excess to that at Solar and Coal stations, I have been to almost every coal power station in SA and I am currently based in France and have been involved in their nuclear industry, you can literally eat of the floor at the nuclear stations, where our coal stations have ash around them. The problem with solar is also high maintenance in terms of cleaning the panels and maintaining efficiency, that is often not considered.

2ndly you cannot compare solar to nuclear you need to compare nuclear to coal given that solar cannot be your backup as power storage is currently (including the Musk wonder battery) not feasible.


http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/whats-the-deadliest-power-source[/QUOTE]
 
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Yes their grid is the mess and they made a stupid mistake by dismantling their nuclear powers programme, they now have to subsidies their coal power stations (emitting more CO2) to have a backup when the renewables cannot produce what they can. on the contrary France is mostly nuclear powered and has tons of 2ndary industries that sis involved in the nuclear power cycle. It is a worthwhile investment, the problem is that the deal will be corrupt, however anything with Eskom and in this country is corrupt. So you cannot single out nuclear on that point alone.

Link please? I am not doubting you, would just like citation so I can read about it.

Thanks
 
Sigh....

Every night a solar array shuts down. Every night. It "malfunctions" every night. Every night at 6pm when demand is usually high, it's shuts down.

I will spell this out one last time for you. Per 100MW the KaXu solar array averages a annual output of 320GWh. Per 100MW Koeberg averages a annual output of 760GWh (malfunctions, refueling, outages and all). Do you understand this?

Do you understand that this is a difference of 440GWh. Do you understand that this ADDS huge economic value to a power station???

Do you understand that you have to take this huge difference in annual normalized generation into you cost calculation as well?

They are not incredibly dangerous. Do you fly? If you think a nuclear power station is "incredibly dangerous", please refrain from flying in a aircraft.


Kaxu One is a CSP plant (concentrated solar power), with molten salt storage., _not_ Solar PV.
It has 2.5-5hrs storage capacity too, which means it will provide power into the evening peak, which is when its needed.

CSP is more expensive than other solutions - solar or wind.
A similar wind sized or pv plant could be built for around a 1/3rd to a 1/4th the price. Possibly less, as Wind/kw pricing has been dropping radically over the last 5 years as higher turbines are being built.
Far cheaper, far faster to build, and better for the environment, as we can reduce the polluting coal plants in place.

There are reasons why a CSP plant was built though - mostly that we're a test bed for other countries, and Abengoa wants some example CSP projects. Construction costs are moot though. Private sector is paying for it, not the tax-payer.

Eskom says - we offer 100MW up for bid for 20 years.
People bid, the winner(s) and Eskom sign a contract to purchase electricity produced at a given rate per kw for 20 years.
The private sector is perfectly happy to do this as costs are predictable, and the income is guaranteed assuming plant can be produced on time and on budget. So far, pretty much all of the renewable builds from the private sector side have been on time or built faster than expected.

The Eskom builds are over time, and over budget, as they don't really care - its not their money. Private sector cares, as its their own money.

Moving onto Nuclear.
The private sector doesn't want to invest in Nuclear in any way shape or form as the costs are typically over budget. Usually by double or triple initial estimates. The costs in case of failure are also un-budgetable, as are the costs to de-comission a plant.
So, only governments are building Nuclear. The costs are passed onto the taxpayer - and in our case, we have a tax base of roughly 2%.
< 2% pay the majority of our taxes.

Excellent writeup on taxes here - http://www.rollingalpha.com/2015/10/22/but-who-pays-south-africas-tax/

Its already unsustainable for the middle class to subsidise government wages (40% of taxes earnt go to paying that), 10-12% goes to paying off debt, and another 17% to social grants. There is no money for large scale Nuclear. The interest on the debt alone would cripple the country. It's far more productive for us to ramp up the REIPP program, and allow for 30-40% renewable capacity.
We wouldn't need a Nuclear plant that we simply cannot afford, and we could close down quite a few of the polluting coal plants in the process.

Another good reason why not to go Nuclear is that the consumer can't afford it either. The build price for Nuclear, and the build time dictate the cost per kw [Financial charges are by and away the largest costs for a Nuclear plant, so build time is important, as the longer you take to build, the longer you incur costs, interest before you can start generating kw to recoup money paid..].
We could barely afford that at R7/dollar, at R17 its impossibly expensive.

So no, ***** Nuclear.
 
Link please? I am not doubting you, would just like citation so I can read about it.

Thanks

http://www.energypost.eu/german-lignite-accord-will-take-lot-get-lignite-germany-let-alone-europe/

I agree however that currently the Nuclear deal sounds very corrupt and nontransparent. That should be the issue, however to get rid of the technology all together sounds wrong to me. These advoces should go to Witbank or Majuba and literally walk in the ash on some of those stations and compare them to Koeberg. The reason being the Nuclear power is governed by international safety regulations and not Eskoms pathetic SHEQ policies.
 
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